Charisma and personality: how much do you need to lead?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

God, These pair with no personality or charisma.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:02

What a drama.

Lee: 00:00:03

my husband does tell me that.

Lee: 00:00:06

He says, I think I'm funnier than I am

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:08

Sometimes I say it about myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:10

I thought that was really funny, but nobody else did.

Lee: 00:00:53

hello and welcome to another episode of How to Take the Lead with

Lee: 00:00:57

my lovely co collaborator in crime, as I like to call her Carrie Ann,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

Hello, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:03

How are you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:04

That's a, that's a lovely welcome.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:05

Thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

I was gonna ask, what do you want calling me?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:08

Lovely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:09

You there must be something that you're creeping for.

Lee: 00:01:11

do you mean I don't normally use such, such nice words when I describe you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:15

No, I feel like we've spent so much time

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:17

together over the last few weeks.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:18

You're probably sick of the site of me by now.

Lee: 00:01:20

Never, how are you doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:22

I'm not too bad.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:23

Thank you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:23

I'm coming to terms with the, uh, autumnal creeping into winter vibes.

Lee: 00:01:29

was hoping we were gonna get an intro without weather wa

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:32

no.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

Oh my God.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:34

Edit it out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

Edit it out, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:36

Edit the weather out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

Maybe I've got a, a thing that I've got an un unfulfilled desire

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

to have been a weather person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:43

Really

Lee: 00:01:44

I thought you were gonna say an unfulfilled desire to be a hairdresser.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:48

well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:48

The small talk been anywhere nice for your holiday Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:51

We digress as we usually do.

Lee: 00:01:53

I apologize to any hairdressers listening who've been offended by

Lee: 00:01:56

Carrie Ann's impression of them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:58

Yeah, it was.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:59

That's like when you have a phone voice, clearly I would've

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:01

had a hairdresser's voice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:03

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:04

Interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:05

Now I'm worrying that I just randomly make small talk with people I don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:08

know in that voice all the time.

Lee: 00:02:10

Well, this is your extrovert, peak extrovert coming out now, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:14

Peak extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:15

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:15

Don't get us started on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:17

I know that's a different episode, but we've had quite a few chats recently

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

where I feel like you are becoming more extrovert and I'm becoming more

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

introvert, that we're having some weird, like, are we gonna meet in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

middle or some are we gonna implode?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

I dunno what's gonna happen.

Lee: 00:02:31

We can have one of those.

Lee: 00:02:32

Jody Foster Freaky Friday moments.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:37

Uh, it's coming up to Halloween, so who knows?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:40

Who knows?

Lee: 00:02:40

So anyway, the, the main reason people are tuning in, do you tune into

Lee: 00:02:45

a podcast Anyway, the main reason they might be listening to today's episode

Lee: 00:02:50

is I want to talk about something that, actually sparked in my brain in the

Lee: 00:02:58

summer, like way, way before, I think we were in the middle of recording series one

Lee: 00:03:03

and I was at a festival, and I overheard a conversation between some people about

Lee: 00:03:10

Kier Starmer not having a personality and so they were less likely to vote for them.

Lee: 00:03:17

And it, it just struck this whole.

Lee: 00:03:21

Kind of conversation in my head.

Lee: 00:03:22

I, I found fascinating and obviously there's been a huge amount of

Lee: 00:03:26

political change since then.

Lee: 00:03:28

And I don't want this to be a,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:31

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

Another episode on the state of Politics today.

Lee: 00:03:36

But, but I would be remiss to not tell you how the topic for

Lee: 00:03:41

today's conversation came about.

Lee: 00:03:43

So, we'll, we'll try and err away from the politics per se, but look

Lee: 00:03:48

more at this concept of charisma and personality and actually how

Lee: 00:03:55

much of it do you need to lead?

Lee: 00:03:58

Obviously it seems to play a big part in politics, but I do think the

Lee: 00:04:01

same could be said in business and industry as well, and it really got me

Lee: 00:04:06

thinking about whether having charisma and or personality cuz they aren't

Lee: 00:04:13

necessarily one of the same thing.

Lee: 00:04:15

Is it the cherry on top of a cake for successful leaders or is it that core

Lee: 00:04:21

ingredient that without it you'll end up with this uninspiring mess?

Lee: 00:04:26

A bit like when I try to make cheesecake at home Yeah.

Lee: 00:04:30

Does it really matter?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:32

Well, do you know what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:34

Since we started talking about charisma, cause obviously we do

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:37

have chats in between episodes about things that are on our mind

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:40

and, and in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:42

I've been back and forth with this one to be honest Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

I've not been on the fence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:46

I've been flip flopping either side of the fence about my thoughts around it because

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:50

there was a bit of me that was like, well in previous episodes we've talked

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:54

about what you need to be, uh, a good leader or a leader that people trust in

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

and people want to go on a journey with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:01

And that has often been about being approachable, being open, acting

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

with integrity, being authentic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:09

Um, I guess to some degree, being likable,

Lee: 00:05:12

Mm

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:13

tell a story, be someone that can take a person with them on a journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:18

So therefore, having that rapport.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:20

So for me, I was like that's some really important ingredients

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:23

of being a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:25

But all of that seems to also be what it means to be charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:29

So, but I wouldn't necessarily say that all leaders that I've come across, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:34

would've described as being charismatic, but they have been able to do at least

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:38

some of those things as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:40

So I sort of ended up confusing myself, if I'm honest, which is probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:45

unhelpful for the listeners who might have wanted a more direct answer.

Lee: 00:05:49

Should we, should we just end the episode here then?

Lee: 00:05:51

We don't know the answer to the question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:55

Well, I think there's some interesting things to explore around

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:59

that theme of charisma, because then as I was going through all of that, do, do,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:04

is it the cherry on the top of the cake?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:07

Is it already in the cake?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:08

I don't really know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:09

There was also a bit of me around is it about people's perceptions as well

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

though, because people who I might think are charismatic as leaders or, or others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

So I was trying to think of some examples.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

And sadly, quite a few of them were politicians, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:24

I'm sure there'll be more.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:24

But like for me, like Barack Obama is a person who I, I personally would

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:30

say does have charisma in terms of how he presents himself and when he

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:34

is on that kind of public speaking platform, I find him very charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:40

But obviously there'll be people that don't find him charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:43

So I was starting to get to a point is, is there something there about

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:46

your own perceptions and your own personal sort of tastes and desires

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:51

in terms of, of what you are looking for in a person as to whether or not

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:55

you, you feel that they're charismatic?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:57

I don't really know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

So I've taken us off on a bit of a tangently because I haven't really been

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:01

able to answer your question directly.

Lee: 00:07:03

Well, I think you, you raised an interesting point because I do

Lee: 00:07:07

think whether you think charisma is important or not does depend on A, the

Lee: 00:07:13

level of charisma you think someone else is showing, and B, whether your

Lee: 00:07:19

own personality style is one that is likely to get on with that person.

Lee: 00:07:26

So I do disc personality profiling, which looks at different, particularly

Lee: 00:07:31

communication styles and traits and how different styles need to work

Lee: 00:07:37

with each other in, in the workplace.

Lee: 00:07:39

But you obviously do see a clash between people at different

Lee: 00:07:43

ends of the spectrum and.

Lee: 00:07:46

That's as a leader, why you need to make changes in adapting your approach

Lee: 00:07:51

so that you can connect with people whose style might not be yours.

Lee: 00:07:54

So I can absolutely see cases where, um, what I would call like

Lee: 00:07:59

a high eye, someone who's very extrovert and bubbly and whatever.

Lee: 00:08:04

Absolutely oozes, charisma can sometimes seem a bit,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:10

Off putting

Lee: 00:08:11

Off putting, um, woolly fluffy

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:14

bit, much

Lee: 00:08:15

to, someone who's, who's in a C role.

Lee: 00:08:19

Because they're more into the detail and want to make sure processes

Lee: 00:08:23

are followed and stuff like that.

Lee: 00:08:24

So you can see how where you fit on a spectrum absolutely plays into a,

Lee: 00:08:31

whether you think charisma's important, and B, who you see as charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

Good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

I feel less bad now that I've kind of flip flopped around

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:39

going, Oh, I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:40

But I, I do think there is something in that leadership space about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:43

things we have talked about before about that ability to build rapport

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:48

with the people that you are leading and taking people on that journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:51

Um, so I'm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:53

Quite interested actually in kind of how you've explained that and the

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:56

fact that it's about the approaches you might take to do that and what

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

appeals to different sorts of people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:02

It's not always going to be the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:04

I feel a bit more at ease with my own, flip flopping around with my

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:08

thoughts on that Lee, now, Thank you

Lee: 00:09:11

I, I mean, I look at it as, I think people who are charismatic

Lee: 00:09:16

can usually inspire others.

Lee: 00:09:20

As we've talked about this scale, it won't, they won't

Lee: 00:09:22

necessarily inspire everyone.

Lee: 00:09:25

Um, having charisma can help you to build that trust and connection.

Lee: 00:09:30

And it probably helps to bring energy and enthusiasm into a situation,

Lee: 00:09:36

but not always in a positive way.

Lee: 00:09:38

I think that it can be helpful, but I don't think

Lee: 00:09:42

it's essential for you to lead.

Lee: 00:09:45

I think the most important things to lead are things you've talked about, which is

Lee: 00:09:50

can you inspire confidence in your vision?

Lee: 00:09:53

Can you communicate well?

Lee: 00:09:55

Can you show empathy?

Lee: 00:09:58

Do you have that emotional intelligence?

Lee: 00:10:00

I think they are stronger characteristics or must haves of leadership, whereas

Lee: 00:10:05

charisma, I don't think is a must have.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:07

And, and I think back to that point about personal preference.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:11

On the charisma front, you could describe other, Isn't it funny

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:15

how some of my leadership examples always go back to politicians, but.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:20

I'm sure there are people who could describe Boris Johnson or even a Donald

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:24

Trump as charismatic in terms of, how they conduct themselves and present

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:28

themselves and what it might feel like to be in conversation with them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

But actually for me, they don't demonstrate any of those other

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:36

leadership characteristics we've talked about saying are really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:39

So, so you can be charismatic and a bad leader, I think is probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

where I was going with that comment.

Lee: 00:10:46

And the, the whole premise of, of this, even as a conversation was someone

Lee: 00:10:51

bearing that comparison between Mr.

Lee: 00:10:54

Johnson and Mr.

Lee: 00:10:55

Stama.

Lee: 00:10:56

But, it's an interesting one that I think if you try too hard to have charisma

Lee: 00:11:05

and it's not something that's naturally in your wheelhouse, is that the word

Lee: 00:11:10

I'm looking for in your wheelhouse?

Lee: 00:11:12

Um, I think you'll, you'll probably come across as a bit creepy, so you've gotta be

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:18

Yeah, I think it, yeah, if you are, if you are not naturally

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:21

charismatic, but you are playing at being charismatic, I think, like you say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:26

it almost is being a bit inauthentic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:28

There's a bit of lack of integrity there maybe creepy is such a good word.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:32

Yes, it is a bit creepy isn't it when you see people who seem to be trying

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:36

too hard to be the funny one or the, you know, whatever it is that sometimes you

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:40

think, Oh, that's just a bit awkward.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:42

I think it comes across as a bit awkward if it's not your natural way of being.

Lee: 00:11:46

When I was thinking about charisma, I don't see many people

Lee: 00:11:52

describe themselves as charismatic.

Lee: 00:11:54

I think it's something that's gifted to you as a label by someone else,

Lee: 00:11:58

and I dunno whether that was like, whether that's just my reflection or,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:02

I, I absolutely agree with you and I think if you ask somebody

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:06

to describe themselves and they went, Oh, I'm very charismatic, you'd be

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:09

back in that space of it feeling a bit creepy and cringy, wouldn't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:13

Because I don't think it is a descriptor that you would

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

generally tend to use for yourself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:18

I think it is one of those ones that someone else has to find you that and

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

yeah, be kind enough to give you that label if you think it's a good thing.

Lee: 00:12:27

Interestingly, I mean, you said you were thinking of a lot of

Lee: 00:12:30

politicians when I was Thinking of it, I was thinking a lot about extroverts

Lee: 00:12:37

being charismatic and not necessarily something that's an introvert trait.

Lee: 00:12:42

And I found this study that was in the Harvard Business Review, and we

Lee: 00:12:46

can do a link in the show notes to it, and it showed the correlation

Lee: 00:12:53

between charisma, strategic thinking and operational delivery.

Lee: 00:12:59

And it was saying that charismatic leaders might be good at the

Lee: 00:13:05

strategic thinking, but really bad actually getting stuff done.

Lee: 00:13:09

And I thought, how true is that when we think of our politicians, going

Lee: 00:13:12

back to who you were thinking of and whereas the ones that you want to

Lee: 00:13:17

trust to get things done perhaps aren't there in the charisma state so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:22

Yeah, a good kind of similarity again, between the

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:25

conversations we've had about extroverts and introverts and even

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:29

some of our own personality traits and things that we are good at labeling

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:33

ourselves as extroverts and introverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:35

I mean I'm definitely a sort of like I've come up with the idea, but I really hope

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:39

someone else is gonna implement it for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:41

So, I can see how that kind of extrovert, introvert, charisma

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:45

or not, might be at play.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:46

I think when you are describing what charisma really means

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:49

and how it manifests itself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:51

It is interesting cause as we're talking, I'm like that whole point

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:54

around like, do you need to be charismatic to be a leader or not?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:57

I can absolutely now start to see the pros and cons of that, if I'm honest with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:01

Cuz it's like, it's all well and good, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:03

Like having the charisma and people thinking you are really great to listen

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:06

to and I'd love to go down the pub for a glass of wine with or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

But actually, if you're not gonna get the job done, what sort of

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:13

leader are you really gonna be?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:14

And, and how does that impact your credibility maybe as a leader if, if

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:19

you can't back up being charismatic with some actual deliverables.

Lee: 00:15:19

The other thing that struck me was that having charisma or being a

Lee: 00:15:25

leader that has charisma and personality feels like quite a manly thing.

Lee: 00:15:31

So even when I Googled charismatic leaders, the

Lee: 00:15:35

vast, vast majority were male.

Lee: 00:15:37

It was Elon Musk.

Lee: 00:15:39

Barack Obama, even Hitler came up on the list of charismatic leaders

Lee: 00:15:43

and obviously wouldn't have put him in that list, but he came up

Lee: 00:15:46

consistently as a charismatic leader.

Lee: 00:15:49

I had to specifically put female into the search term to

Lee: 00:15:52

get any female names returned.

Lee: 00:15:56

So I thought that was an interesting finding.

Lee: 00:16:00

And also then when you think about it, there seems to be more

Lee: 00:16:03

is accepted of male leaders.

Lee: 00:16:06

Almost things are forgiven and put down to, oh, it's their personality again,

Lee: 00:16:11

not to get political, but we've seen that with some of our, the behaviors

Lee: 00:16:15

of the, the male politicians, and it's, Oh, that's just him, isn't it?

Lee: 00:16:19

And it's almost just brushed aside.

Lee: 00:16:22

Whereas if it was a female leader whose personality was shining through, They'd

Lee: 00:16:28

perhaps be accused of not being serious enough or not having substance or those

Lee: 00:16:33

types of accusations are levered at them.

Lee: 00:16:36

And I suppose, I mean, it got me thinking, we've had a whole other conversation about

Lee: 00:16:40

women in leadership, so I don't want to dive too much into that specifically.

Lee: 00:16:45

But how do you challenge that?

Lee: 00:16:47

Is charisma this manly word and we should have a different word for women?

Lee: 00:16:51

Or do we need to be challenging the thinking around you can have personality

Lee: 00:16:56

and substance and still be a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:59

Yeah, I, that's a really interesting one because I

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:01

would agree that I do think it is charisma is seen as something that

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:05

is predominantly a male thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:08

Um, and I have had that conversation in other spaces actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:11

I've been part of a, a Women's leadership Mastermind and we had a whole conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:15

about charisma and actually would we want to be defined as charismatic ourselves?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:20

Would we like it if people said we had charisma?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:23

What did that really mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:24

And there was quite a, a difference of opinion actually in that group

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:27

around some people a bit like the stuff we've talked about around, well,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:31

it's all well and good, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:32

Being charismatic, but you know, are you gonna get the job done?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:35

That's more important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:36

Some people with the whole sometimes charisma is a bit cheesy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:42

Is it a bit cringy to be overly charismatic and then a few others actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:47

saying, I, I definitely think women can be described as charismatic and that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:52

not a bad thing, that's a good thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:54

But it all came from that starting point that you said, which is, I think there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:57

a perception that, that charisma is a word we use to describe men we would women.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:03

And then I was trying to have a think about are there women that

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:08

I perceive to be charismatic?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:10

And I guess it was interesting for me because names that sprang to

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:14

mind were actually more celebrities using the term loosely cos I'm not

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:20

sure I like the term celebrity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:21

That's a whole other episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:24

They were more people in that celebrity sphere than they

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

were in a leadership sphere.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:28

So, and again, down to personal taste, I would say someone like Claudia

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:32

Winkleman, I think is actually quite charismatic how she comes across.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:37

See, Lee disagrees with me, so we're back to that point about personal preference,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:41

but I think she comes across as somebody's very comfortable in her own skin, she can

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:47

have a bit of a laugh at her own self.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

She's happy to, to kind of crack a funny, She can talk to anybody about anything.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:55

And I, I feel like she comes across as quite charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:58

Yet when I think of female leaders that I find really inspiring.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:02

So someone like, you know, who am I trying to think of?

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:07

Let me try and think of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:08

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:09

Let's, let's say Jacinda.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:11

I find her to be a really positive role model as a leader, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:15

somebody I think demonstrates lots of traits of being a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:18

But I'm not sure if charismatic would be a way I would describe her, but I

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

would describe her as very likable, very approachable, inspiring, somebody

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:28

who clearly can build rapport with others and take people on a journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:32

So it, it is very interesting, isn't it, how we use that

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:35

descriptor of being charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:37

And I think, I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:39

I don't know whether it's societal, I dunno whether it's historical, but I

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:43

think it is easier to use that descriptor for men perhaps than it is for women.

Lee: 00:19:48

It was interesting when I, when I did the Google search and, and

Lee: 00:19:51

specifically asked for female leaders, they were politicians, but it was people

Lee: 00:19:56

like Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama.

Lee: 00:19:59

And I suppose a bit like you've just said, with Jacinda Ardern I, I wouldn't

Lee: 00:20:03

have ever used charismatic as a.

Lee: 00:20:07

If I had to describe them in one word, that wouldn't be one word that would've

Lee: 00:20:11

sprung to mind for either of them.

Lee: 00:20:12

That doesn't mean they haven't got a lot of traits that I find, um,

Lee: 00:20:17

inspiring, but that is not the word.

Lee: 00:20:21

But I can't really think of.

Lee: 00:20:23

A female that I would call charismatic, but I don't even know if I'd I, maybe

Lee: 00:20:27

it's just not a word I use in my every day, cuz I can't think positively of

Lee: 00:20:33

any male people who are charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:37

and also though there's something for me, Sorry, it's totally

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:40

random and a complete digress that's come into my head, but, you know, as we

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

were talking about like the word, who, who would you describe as charismatic?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:47

And actually is charisma a thing that we are really comfortable

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:50

with, or is it a bit cringy that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:52

I dunno why.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

It just makes me think of adverts for like dating sites that, that there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:57

certain men that somebody might describe as, Oh, he is very charismatic in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:02

sphere rather than in a leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

So, for me, the more we're talking about charisma, the more it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:07

something that I'm like, I'm not sure if I want charisma to be a word that

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

is associated with leadership, cuz I'm not sure really when you start

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:15

digging into it, the connotations of it are really that positive.

Lee: 00:21:18

No, but personality on the other hand, I think that is good.

Lee: 00:21:24

I can think of lots of leaders with personality and a lot of

Lee: 00:21:28

leaders who can bring their own sense of personality into a role.

Lee: 00:21:34

Um, yeah, so maybe, maybe those two words and sentiments of divorced

Lee: 00:21:39

from each other, and we are not so happy with Charisma, but personality.

Lee: 00:21:45

But I don't think personality is a must either.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:48

Yeah, I think I'm probably with you on that one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:51

I think personality probably is the cherry on the top of the cake As you, as

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

you were talking about at the start of the episode, I think it, wouldn't it be

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:59

brilliant if every leader that we ever worked with had had personality or a

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:04

personality that resonated with us and that, and that we liked and enjoyed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

But that isn't always the way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:10

And actually, yeah, again, for me sometimes it's the, like, what is

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:14

this leader actually getting down to in terms of the nitty gritty?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:17

What are they going to help us to deliver?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:19

How are they gonna take us on the journey?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:20

Doesn't always need them to have the best personality to, to enable you to get

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

on board with the direction of travel.

Lee: 00:22:27

I suppose there's shades of personality, isn't there?

Lee: 00:22:30

So I think if someone is completely devoid of personality, then that is

Lee: 00:22:37

something you might want to work on.

Lee: 00:22:40

I think having elements of showing up with personality does help you build connection

Lee: 00:22:47

and come across a bit more authentically.

Lee: 00:22:50

I think if you are really serious or you, you lack humor, or maybe you've been told

Lee: 00:22:55

by someone else that you don't have that spark comparing you to a another leader,

Lee: 00:23:02

for example, that is usually something that you might want to work on in your

Lee: 00:23:08

leadership, I suppose if you are really aspiring to the upper echelons of the

Lee: 00:23:14

hierarchy of leadership, I suppose if you're really gonna inspire and take

Lee: 00:23:18

people with you, you need to have a little bit of personality about you.

Lee: 00:23:23

And the more personality you have, it can kind of depend on how successful you are.

Lee: 00:23:29

What do you do I suppose if someone's listening to this, who goes, Oh shit,

Lee: 00:23:33

I haven't got a personality, or I've been told I don't have a personality.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

You never know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

They might be saying it about us, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:41

God, These pair with no personality or charisma.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:44

What a drama.

Lee: 00:23:44

my husband does tell me that.

Lee: 00:23:47

He says, I think I'm funnier than I am

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:49

Oh, it's all right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:50

My partner says that about me all the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:51

Sometimes I say it about myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:54

I thought that was really funny, but nobody else did.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:56

Sorry, we digress again.

Lee: 00:23:58

Have you forgotten the question?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:59

Well, the question was what to do if you don't have a

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:01

personality and you wanna be a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:04

So if you don't have that natural spark, what do you do?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

Uh, if that's a really tricky one, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:10

Because there's a bit of me that goes, I'm sure people wouldn't have got to

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:14

where they've got to in their leadership journeys without any personality at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:18

One would like to think.

Lee: 00:24:20

I can, I can think of a few directors I've worked with over

Lee: 00:24:22

the time where I've questioned that

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:25

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:26

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:26

Now you say it, you're probably right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:28

And we might be back to that point of like people, so who get I don't wanna

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:32

say over promoted, cause that sounds a bit harsh, but they're just really

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:34

good at technically what they do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:36

And the rest of it doesn't matter.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:38

So I guess there's something about what you and what others are looking

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:41

for in terms of, of leadership and what sort of personality you might

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:46

want that leader to, to demonstrate.

Lee: 00:24:48

Is it something though that you either have or don't have, or is

Lee: 00:24:51

it something like other leadership traits that you can hone over time?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:57

I think the bit for me is around, again, I'm just

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:00

taking it back to that, like what do you need to do as a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:03

Really one of the main things we, we are wanting leaders to do is inspire us in

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:07

some way to take some sort of action.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:09

So for me, I don't necessarily think there's much you can do about having

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:12

a complete personality transplant or being described as charismatic or not,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:17

if I'm honest with you, but I think what you can do is think about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:21

things that you've said are important, which is like your communication style.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

How can you learn, which I think you can, to be more adaptable around

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:30

the way that you interact and engage with different groups of people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:33

So me as an extroverted E, or I'm an, I am I in your disc space, uh, probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

are not gonna be inspiring everybody if I, if I operate at my natural

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:43

level of, of being that all the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:46

So what I've had,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:47

strength

Lee: 00:25:47

becomes your weakness

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:49

And, and so what I've had to learn as a leader is how to adapt my

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:53

style and my approach to try and get the best out of other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:57

So I think there is something that you can do in that space and that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:01

should be doing anyway as a leader around understanding, you know, your key

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:06

stakeholders, your target audiences, your workforce, whomever it might be that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:10

are in the lucky enough position to lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:13

To really start to, to have that insight around, okay, with this group of people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:17

I'm really gonna need to adapt here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:19

What they're gonna need is a lot of fact, a lot of evidence, they're gonna want

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:23

me to just be straight down the line.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:24

They don't need the funny jokes because that's just not

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:27

what's gonna make them tick.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:29

But actually with this other group of people, I might need to come across

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:32

as a bit more humble and maybe put a bit of humor into the mix and be

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:36

more focused on the storytelling rather than the, the evidence maybe.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:41

So I, I definitely think there's something about being able to learn

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:46

how to adapt if you haven't got that natural ability to do so..

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:51

But I think that's less about having the sparky personality or the charisma.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:55

It's just more about wanting to be able to get the best out of and for

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:59

as many people as you can really.

Lee: 00:27:01

Yeah, it's working with what you've got and how you can make the most of it in

Lee: 00:27:06

the different circumstances and contexts in which you're operating in, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:09

And I've also seen examples in my career where I've worked with

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:13

people who you are quite right, probably don't have as much of that charisma or

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:17

personality naturally as other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:20

But what I've seen them do very cleverly is make sure they've surrounded

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:23

themselves by people who can fill that gap a little bit for them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:27

So actually, for example, a director who maybe is a bit more serious

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:32

and some people might say has not got that much personality, but has

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:36

a deputy who brings that balance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

So actually they're on message with the same thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:42

They're working towards the same goals, but between them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:45

They're able to almost tick all of the boxes around engaging with those

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:50

different groups of people who want, who want different things from them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:53

So the people who want the personality and the charisma are maybe more aligned

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

with the leading with the deputy, but the people who maybe want the more

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:01

serious, let's just get on and deliver.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:03

So that's, that can sometimes I think, be a powerful combination

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:07

and a way to counteract, but I, I think that goes for everything,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:10

not just charisma or personality.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:12

Cuz we talk about needing to have well balanced teams of people who

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:15

bring a diverse mix to things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:17

But I think you can maybe look to, to do that a bit more when you are in a position

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:22

of building your own leadership team around you to kind of look at where your

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:26

weaknesses might be to make sure you bring some of that strength in somewhere else.

Lee: 00:28:30

That's a really important point.

Lee: 00:28:32

I think, as with any of the traits or skills we've talked about in

Lee: 00:28:37

in previous episodes, that you might want to develop as a leader.

Lee: 00:28:42

It's first and foremost about bringing that awareness of what the situation is.

Lee: 00:28:47

Then that understanding around, where you are at and why you are in that place,

Lee: 00:28:52

and then you can start to work on it.

Lee: 00:28:54

And normally I think that involves working with someone else.

Lee: 00:28:57

And whether that's building your team or specifically working on

Lee: 00:29:02

your own skills in a safe space.

Lee: 00:29:05

Easy for me to say.

Lee: 00:29:06

What I always find fascinating, not to go into politics, but

Lee: 00:29:12

how politicians suddenly have a personality once they've left politics.

Lee: 00:29:17

And there's quite a few people that I've thought are totally uninspired

Lee: 00:29:20

by when they were in the political world, but then you see them after

Lee: 00:29:23

media commentary or, or whatever, and sudden, , you're like, Oh, actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:29

I quite like them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:30

They're

Lee: 00:29:30

I quite like them.

Lee: 00:29:31

Why Why didn't they bring that to the table during their political career?

Lee: 00:29:36

Um, so there is something about trying to understand a person and why

Lee: 00:29:40

they're behaving in a certain way, cuz they might have it within them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:44

Yeah, they might just be constrained by the role or

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:46

the circumstance in which they're operating Or think they are.

Lee: 00:29:50

So conscious of our times to wrap up, let's end with some howtos and I

Lee: 00:29:57

haven't really got a questioned howtos, so it's more about how do you start

Lee: 00:30:02

to own, let's say own your personality rather than become more charismatic.

Lee: 00:30:07

Cuz I think we've missed that word.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:09

Yeah, we've decided we're not that keen on the old charisma.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:12

I think there's something for me, actually, this was gonna be my how

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:15

too, which is don't get caught up in the idea of needing to be charismatic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:19

Because I think what will happen is you will start to come across as quite

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:22

disingenuous because you are so focused on, I must have a personality that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:26

like this to reach out to these people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:30

You are less authentic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:31

So my how to would definitely be about be your authentic self for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:36

But actually if there are things you feel you need to do a bit of work

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:39

on that would help you engage or connect better with different groups

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:43

of people, do identify what they are and do the work in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:47

I don't think it's about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:49

Giving yourself a personality transplant or trying really hard to be, be

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

charismatic or the person that gets described as that every day, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:58

then I think you lose your authenticity.

Lee: 00:31:00

Brilliant.

Lee: 00:31:00

Well, you've basically taken the words out my mouth cuz mine was gonna be practically

Lee: 00:31:05

the same as that, which was worry less about being charismatic, focus more

Lee: 00:31:10

on building your strategy and, and the communications approach that connects.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:14

see.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:14

But you said it far more concisely than me, so thanks.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:17

I love the way you sum that up, cause Oh yeah, that's what I meant to say.