Culture eats strategy?
We share our thoughts in this episode about whether culture trumps strategy and how we as leaders can consider this in our work. Strategy is, of course, important, but the culture you create impacts on so many factors, including how effective you are as a leader.
As always we share our own views, thoughts and experiences:
- 05:06 – culture isn’t it’s own workstream
- 07:54 – culture supporting a changing strategy
- 11:15 – decision making hierarchy
- 15:00 – redefining the culture in your organisation
- 20:30 – aligning behaviours and experiences
- 25.40 – what if you can’t influence the macro culture?
- 32:30 – the How to...
We share our top takeaways focused on how we can make culture part of our leadership manifestos. It’s important to demonstrate behaviours and actions that match your culture and move your strategy forward and show accountability in dealing with poor behaviours.
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Transcript
I love where it went.
Carrie-Ann:Having questioned where it was going.
Carrie-Ann:I love where it went.
Carrie-Ann:Lee
Lee:Hello, and welcome to episode nine of How to Take the Lead.
Lee:As ever, I am with the fabulous Cat's PJ's founder Carrie Ann.
Lee:How are you today?
Carrie-Ann:Fabulous.
Carrie-Ann:I wanna be introduced like that and every meeting or session that I'm in.
Carrie-Ann:Thank you.
Carrie-Ann:That's cheered me right up because I've been in a rageful mood today,
Carrie-Ann:which is quite unusual for me.
Carrie-Ann:I'm on the chill now, so it's fine.
Carrie-Ann:And I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Carrie-Ann:How are you
Lee:Okay, well, I hope, I hope nothing we say today kind of perpetuates the rage,
Lee:, or I won't take it personally if it does
Carrie-Ann:If the, if the red mist starts coming down, I'll give
Carrie-Ann:you fair warning, don't worry,
Lee:Things are good here.
Lee:I am.
Lee:I mean, we are recording this on the last day of November, but I am like Mrs.
Lee:Claus, so, uh, Decorations up.
Lee:Christmas cards have already been posted.
Carrie-Ann:Well, I have to say I know they have Lee because you
Carrie-Ann:are the first person that I've got a Christmas card from already.
Carrie-Ann:It turned up yesterday, so talk about being prepared.
Carrie-Ann:I haven't even taken my birthday cards down yet.
Lee:I went and gave one to my dad earlier today and he said but it's November.
Lee:I can't open it until December.
Lee:I was like, you don't have to open it now, but I've done my bit of sending it to you,
Carrie-Ann:I've ticked this off my to-do list.
Carrie-Ann:I don't care what you do with it at your end, it's fine.
Lee:But I, so I am the most prepared.
Lee:I haven't bought any presents, mind you, but I am the most
Lee:prepared in all other aspects of Christmas than I have ever been.
Lee:And I fear that this is just going to mean failure as we get closer to Christmas day.
Lee:And I'll probably end up in some quivering wreck in the corner
Lee:crying over a burnt Turkey.
Carrie-Ann:So basically what you're saying is you, you are worried that you've
Carrie-Ann:peaked too soon on the festive front
Lee:Definitely,
Carrie-Ann:No, no, I think, I think, I think it'll be fine.
Carrie-Ann:I love how organized you are, but I do feel myself like failure
Carrie-Ann:for not having, uh, got there yet with the Christmas cards.
Carrie-Ann:But
Carrie-Ann:yeah, your Christmas Card is up alongside birthday cards that
Carrie-Ann:probably I should take down.
Carrie-Ann:That's just my laziness, that I haven't taken them down yet.
Lee:It's a constant celebration in your house.
Carrie-Ann:Constant celebration.
Carrie-Ann:And I have to say there has been a little bit of World Cup action also,
Carrie-Ann:um, in our house, but I did read a book while there was a match on the other
Carrie-Ann:night, and my only World Cup chat at work has been Chesney Hawks in halftime.
Carrie-Ann:Seriously, you know, we love some eighties slash nineties vibes on this show.
Lee:Yes, I heard of that.
Lee:I didn't see it.
Lee:I, I can't admit, I, it's been on, in as background noise for me whilst the other
Lee:half has been watching it, but I've been to making, doing Christmas basically,
Carrie-Ann:You've, you've been single handedly doing Christmas in your
Carrie-Ann:house, and I love you for it, Lee.
Carrie-Ann:I want the festive vibes to rub off on me and get me out of my rageful mood.
Lee:Well, I'll, I'll try and I hope in today's discussion we
Lee:can have a bit of fun with it.
Lee:We're a little bit of fun because it's, it is another serious topic, and I want
Lee:us to talk today around the whole concept of culture versus strategy, and I did
Lee:some Googling as I like to do to set a scene, and I came up with a couple
Lee:of well known quotes around culture, so definitions of what culture is.
Lee:You've got the Deal and Kennedy definition, that it's the way things
Lee:get done around here, and then you've got this, I think it was Peter Draco,
Lee:although there's a bit of, um, debate around whether it's come from him, saying
Lee:culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Lee:and he's not saying that strategy isn't important, but that organizational success
Lee:stems from having the right culture.
Lee:And I suppose that's the premise I wanted to touch on today because we've
Lee:talked a lot in episodes accidentally almost about some of the cultural
Lee:things that can affect leadership and the impact you might have as a
Lee:leader and all of that kind of stuff.
Lee:And I suppose I wanted to start at the very beginning looking at culture, I
Lee:don't know about you, but my experience has been culture can often sit as a
Lee:work stream or a strategic driver of a bigger strategy that an organization's
Lee:seeking to deliver, and it can feel at times, a little bit chicken or egg that
Lee:you, you know, you need that vision and strategy to inspire people, give them a
Lee:sense of purpose and all of that stuff.
Lee:but if you haven't got the right culture in place, then you are
Lee:unlikely to get the outcomes you seek.
Lee:And I suppose building a right culture we know isn't an overnight fix.
Lee:It takes a lot of time and often organizations are time poor and
Lee:they need to take those bigger strategic actions in the here and now.
Lee:So, For me, it feels like there's this big balancing act that a leader needs to
Lee:do and how do you start to balance the two, um, so that you make sure that you've
Lee:got strategy and a purpose that you are driving the organization towards, but that
Lee:culture isn't an afterthought to that.
Carrie-Ann:Gosh, what a big question to start us off with Lee.
Carrie-Ann:I love that question.
Carrie-Ann:I don't think it's gonna be a straight answer because you are right there is
Carrie-Ann:that element of like chicken and egg about that whole conversation isn't
Carrie-Ann:there around culture and and strategy.
Carrie-Ann:And I guess for me, um, it's interesting, how you've experienced it and how
Carrie-Ann:you've said culture can often be seen as a work stream because, in the
Carrie-Ann:organization I currently work in, do have a current program around changing
Carrie-Ann:the culture in our organization.
Carrie-Ann:Talking about having a more just and compassionate culture,
Carrie-Ann:um, within our organization.
Carrie-Ann:And I have just this very week had a conversation where somebody has
Carrie-Ann:asked for a campaign to support our just and compassionate culture.
Carrie-Ann:And I can see that the listeners won't be able to see this.
Carrie-Ann:It looks, like Lee's rolled her eyes, at the very thought of it.
Lee:Oh, can we have a poster?
Carrie-Ann:Yes, that was my reaction.
Carrie-Ann:Cause I'm like, culture is about so much more than that and I absolutely get the
Carrie-Ann:desire to want to communicate the idea that you want an open culture, whatever
Carrie-Ann:type of culture it is that you're trying to create, we hope a positive one.
Carrie-Ann:Um, but for me, there's just something about making, making that
Carrie-Ann:all part of your business as usual.
Carrie-Ann:So actually for me in this example, it was like, I don't want us to run a
Carrie-Ann:campaign about having a compassionate culture, I want us to demonstrate in all
Carrie-Ann:of the other campaigns we are running, recruitment campaigns being a really good
Carrie-Ann:topical example, in my workplace at the moment that we are compassionate and that
Carrie-Ann:that is the culture that we are creating and embedding in the organization.
Carrie-Ann:Rather than it sitting as, as a separate thing.
Carrie-Ann:But I think you are quite right.
Carrie-Ann:Some of that is about the fact that it takes time, I think, to develop,
Carrie-Ann:nurture, create a, a positive culture in an organization because
Carrie-Ann:it's so much based on individual's experiences of that organization.
Carrie-Ann:That might be the broader organization as a whole.
Carrie-Ann:It might be a direct experience with their line manager, a colleague.
Carrie-Ann:Someone else, in a different place in the organization.
Carrie-Ann:And all of those individual experiences, I think add up to how people would
Carrie-Ann:describe the culture in your organization, and particularly around change.
Carrie-Ann:So you know, if you're implementing a new strategy, you are having to
Carrie-Ann:change the strategic direction of your organization, you want that to be quick.
Carrie-Ann:But we all know the culture bit feels like it takes a lot of time.
Carrie-Ann:And I think that's where the rub comes for me.
Carrie-Ann:I think the research has demonstrated it takes something like seven years to
Carrie-Ann:change a culture in an organization.
Carrie-Ann:Yet when culture is set up as a work stream or a program of work, you're being
Carrie-Ann:asked to report to your boards every other month about where are we at with changing
Carrie-Ann:the culture and, and all of that doesn't weirdly fit with the culture you probably
Carrie-Ann:are trying to create in your organization.
Carrie-Ann:So I, I think, sorry I've gone slightly off piece, but I guess the
Carrie-Ann:bit around the strategy and culture and, and do they sit and work together?
Carrie-Ann:Yes, I think they do have to, and I think if you work hard to create an
Carrie-Ann:open, transparent, engaged culture in your organization that will help you to
Carrie-Ann:develop a strategy and a common purpose and, and a sense of those common goals
Carrie-Ann:that people feel like they can get on board with and own, I guess for each
Carrie-Ann:leader and each organization, it's about doing that assessment of, of where you
Carrie-Ann:are at with both of those things and how you can bring them both together to
Carrie-Ann:support each other, if that makes sense.
Lee:Yeah.
Lee:Often there is a gap between what they say the culture is and then what they do.
Lee:And I think that's one of the biggest challenges.
Lee:When it becomes a exercise or a campaign or something, you end up
Lee:doing some posters or you might, it might be a CEO stands up in, in the
Lee:room and launches something that's, this is the culture we are working
Lee:towards, and then everyone thinks, well, we've said it, so it's changed.
Lee:But if you're not doing the work behind the scenes on the behaviors,
Lee:that's the most important thing.
Lee:And I think that's where the integrity gap lies between this issue of
Lee:strategy and culture and trying to change a culture into a direction
Lee:that you want, because it is so much more than just a, a catchphrase.
Carrie-Ann:And you said earlier about how do you get that balance of the two?
Carrie-Ann:And I think there's something for me about you start to, um, create
Carrie-Ann:the culture of your organization through having conversations to
Carrie-Ann:try and seek that balance I think.
Carrie-Ann:So, from my point of view, it is about having those open conversations and asking
Carrie-Ann:people how they would describe the culture of your organization and what it feels
Carrie-Ann:like to be part of the organization.
Carrie-Ann:So you can start to understand more about that.
Carrie-Ann:And like you say, think about where that gap is in terms of where perhaps
Carrie-Ann:you and your leadership team think the culture is and, and where it
Carrie-Ann:really is in the organization.
Carrie-Ann:But I also think you can factor into those conversations, some questions to
Carrie-Ann:your organization about what is it that your colleagues actually need
Carrie-Ann:to help deliver on the strategy, on that vision, on that purpose, and
Carrie-Ann:kind of tie, tie the two together in terms of having those conversations.
Carrie-Ann:But I think for me, as a leader to, to balance the two, you have
Carrie-Ann:to be open to seeking feedback and hearing what it's really like
Carrie-Ann:to be part of your organization.
Lee:I suppose feedback is, is one area in which you can learn about the type
Lee:of culture that you are a leader in and you are potentially perpetuating.
Lee:Other ways are, I suppose, looking at the feedback you are already
Lee:getting that informal, formal feedback from maybe your staff.
Lee:It might be from your customers or, or your clients.
Lee:I think there's also, for me, there's something about that hierarchy and
Lee:decision making in your organization and how that all sits and works says a lot
Lee:about the culture that you are starting.
Lee:Not starting.
Lee:The culture that you are leading over does really come down to accountabilities,
Lee:decision making and all of that kind of stuff, which again, when you're looking
Lee:at the development and delivery of strategy can often be overlooked because
Lee:we agree up here and then it gets passed down into the organization to be done.
Carrie-Ann:And I guess for me, just building on that point,
Carrie-Ann:there's something around.
Carrie-Ann:As well, like governance in organizations.
Carrie-Ann:So linked to that accountability point, I often think when, when we've developed
Carrie-Ann:strategies, we then look at our strategic objectives and lots of those are aligned
Carrie-Ann:to different accountability lines through a governance structure in an organization
Carrie-Ann:which can feel quite rigid and can feel very like up and down, very linear.
Carrie-Ann:And I feel like sometimes that doesn't help when you are trying to think about
Carrie-Ann:the culture of your organization because you are making assumptions that people
Carrie-Ann:will give feedback about the delivery of the strategy and the culture of
Carrie-Ann:your organization through a sort of escalation route and a very formal
Carrie-Ann:route of governance, performance, that type of stuff, which, you know, you do
Carrie-Ann:have to do around delivering strategy.
Carrie-Ann:But I think it's about making sure there are other mechanisms to capture.
Carrie-Ann:Not necessarily more of the qualitative stuff, cuz it doesn't have to be, you
Carrie-Ann:know, it can be the hard data in terms of numbers, but just that you, you don't get
Carrie-Ann:caught in that kind of very formal way of like, delivery, cascade down, cascade up.
Carrie-Ann:We're not actually having conversations, we're we're being more directive.
Lee:I think that's a really important point.
Lee:And we've spoken before about you can miss a lot if you just follow like
Lee:where the mass stuff is happening, whether that's decision making, whether
Lee:the stats or data that you're look looking at, all of that kind of stuff.
Lee:If you're not looking broader and in a more diverse way, you are not
Lee:really tapping into what's happening in your organization or, or what,
Lee:what your organization's really up to.
Lee:If you've got the wrong culture, and I'm not going to attempt to define
Lee:what wrong culture is cuz that will be different for every organization.
Lee:But if you've got a wrong culture, where do you start to redefine and
Lee:develop the type of culture that you want, in the way that you want?
Carrie-Ann:I think there's something about, uh, we we're talking about balance
Carrie-Ann:a lot actually in this conversation, aren't we Balancing the type of culture
Carrie-Ann:that you want with the type of culture that the rest of your organization feel
Carrie-Ann:able to buy into, and actually your end state of what you'd like the culture in
Carrie-Ann:your organization to be like, needs to be kind of defined and worked towards
Carrie-Ann:based on where people are at right now.
Carrie-Ann:And it's really important to understand that everyone will be in a different
Carrie-Ann:space in terms of their experience of, of the culture in your organization.
Carrie-Ann:Some people might already think that it's all good, um, and
Carrie-Ann:that's fine and they're happy.
Carrie-Ann:Some people will have had a, a really horrible experience
Carrie-Ann:potentially in your organization.
Carrie-Ann:I think the bit for me around where you need to start is
Carrie-Ann:not dismissing people's past.
Carrie-Ann:So where I've seen work around developing and creating new and different cultures,
Carrie-Ann:changing cultures and organizations really struggle is when there isn't a
Carrie-Ann:recognition of where people have come from and the entire focus has been on
Carrie-Ann:right we're gonna be a compassionate, empowering organization if, if you are
Carrie-Ann:not that, to start off with that so far removed from people's experiences that
Carrie-Ann:they can't get in that head space to be operating and change in their behaviors
Carrie-Ann:to demonstrate that type of culture.
Carrie-Ann:So for me, I think there is a, you know, you don't want to get caught up
Carrie-Ann:in always talking about what it used to be like, but I think you do need
Carrie-Ann:to do that piece of work where you reconcile people's history with the
Carrie-Ann:desire of where they might want to go in terms of culture in the organization
Carrie-Ann:to try and support that buy-in.
Lee:Yeah.
Lee:I mean, if it feels like you're trying to climb Everest, and no one's had any
Lee:training or support and they've got nothing to, to sustain them in the climb.
Lee:They're not going to, to get there are they?.
Lee:But I think there's also the flip side of, of, I suppose one of the downsides
Lee:of when, It might be an executive team that have gone for an away day and written
Lee:something on the back of a fag packet and not done that testing or making sure
Lee:that it's represents the organization, is that they can come up with statements
Lee:where actually can feel to people, well, we already do that, so are you, you saying
Lee:in our team that we are not offering a safe or compassionate culture or just
Lee:culture or whatever because it can be, as you've said so different and people's
Lee:experiences and, and the microcultures that can exist within an organization can
Lee:feel really different to maybe the macro culture that you are trying to create.
Lee:And I think that's one of the, Issues if people go away and do
Lee:this locked door exercise to come up with how they want things to be.
Lee:And I say this even when I work one on one with leaders that not to go
Lee:into an organization and just project what it is they want to achieve.
Lee:It's got to come from a basis of understanding and answer, answering
Lee:the problems and the questions that they hear of the people
Lee:that, they are there to serve.
Carrie-Ann:Yeah, I, I think a lot of this ties into the conversation
Carrie-Ann:we had in the episode around listening, to be honest with you.
Carrie-Ann:Cause I think there is something really important about being curious and truly
Carrie-Ann:listening to what you are hearing.
Carrie-Ann:And, and, and in that episode, didn't we, we talked about it isn't
Carrie-Ann:just about what people are saying, it is about behaviors, it is about
Carrie-Ann:other data that you can triangulate.
Carrie-Ann:So for me, I think that's a really important part of where you start from
Carrie-Ann:in terms of whether you've got this wrong culture that we're talking about.
Carrie-Ann:I would say I, I also think there's something, um, just building on
Carrie-Ann:the bit around microcultures that exist in organizations.
Carrie-Ann:I think there is something come up time and time again for me in organizations
Carrie-Ann:that I've worked in, around how much support and development we actually give
Carrie-Ann:to leaders and managers in organizations.
Carrie-Ann:And we often see in staff survey results that actually people's direct, reflections
Carrie-Ann:on how they feel about working for the organizations are very linked to their
Carrie-Ann:relationship with their direct line manager and whether they think their
Carrie-Ann:line manager has good communication with them, whether they think they listen,
Carrie-Ann:whether they think they share things about what's going on in the organization,
Carrie-Ann:support them, all of that kind of stuff.
Carrie-Ann:So I actually think part of, uh, shifting from a, a wrong culture to a
Carrie-Ann:more positive right culture for your organization also has to be focused on
Carrie-Ann:the developmental needs of, of the people that are helping to define that culture.
Carrie-Ann:Um, so yeah, that would just be one of my observations, I think around
Carrie-Ann:starting points and things, things not to miss when you are considering
Carrie-Ann:how you might go about trying to, to change a culture in an organization.
Lee:And you look at things like attrition of staff for example, the,
Lee:the reasons that staff leave usually is because of line management.
Lee:They, they don't tend to leave or stay at an organization cuz of the organization.
Lee:They tend to stay or leave because of their direct experience of their managers.
Lee:So going back to one of the earlier points that we were talking about this
Lee:need to align, I suppose, the behaviors so that there isn't a gap between what
Lee:you say you want your culture to be and what your culture ends up being, I
Lee:think this is really, really important.
Lee:I mean, it's important in culture, full stop, but particularly if you're trying
Lee:to shift a culture, you almost want to create a sense of a movement, don't you?
Lee:Of everyone feeling like they're getting behind a change.
Lee:So how you frame it, I suppose, as a leader is a really important
Lee:consideration and not often, and I don't mean framing it.
Lee:Let's have a catchphrase and do a poster.
Lee:I mean, about explaining what it means inherently to work in this
Lee:organization and to be this type of employee and how you demonstrate that
Lee:from a top to bottom perspective.
Lee:So it isn't just leadership talking about what the organization, meaning
Lee:everyone else needs to do, but it's about them looking at themselves and
Lee:going, right it's how we behave as well.
Lee:It's how we recruit people.
Lee:It's what we tolerate in terms of behaviors and hold each other
Lee:to account and all of that stuff.
Lee:I think that can often be a disconnect between an organization and leadership
Lee:when they're trying to shift a culture, because it can be seen as a done to
Lee:exercise rather than a done with one.
Carrie-Ann:I, I absolutely agree with you, and I also think on one
Carrie-Ann:of the points you've made there, Sometimes that doesn't happen.
Carrie-Ann:That leadership piece doesn't happen because that can be very uncomfortable.
Carrie-Ann:So as a leader thinking about how are my behaviors impacting on the culture in this
Carrie-Ann:organization, how am I demonstrating the culture that we are trying to, deliver and
Carrie-Ann:achieving this organization can feel quite uncomfortable because you're having to
Carrie-Ann:hold the mirror up to yourself, either as an individual or to your leadership team,
Carrie-Ann:which may uncover the fact that actually some behaviors your own or of other people
Carrie-Ann:in your senior leadership team do not lend themselves to the development of the
Carrie-Ann:culture that you're trying to achieve.
Carrie-Ann:And that can feel, I guess, either a bit anxiety inducing or a bit like something
Carrie-Ann:that is too difficult to address so we don't wanna open that box and go there.
Carrie-Ann:So I think it does take A really mature and thoughtful leader and leadership
Carrie-Ann:team to, to truly be able to do that.
Carrie-Ann:But it is hugely important in terms of, of how you shift and move a culture forward.
Lee:Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that's frustrated me in my
Lee:corporate career was the sense that often, you know, we've, uh, linking back to
Lee:what we said at the start about culture can often be seen as a, a work stream.
Lee:And it's one that tends to get dumped with HR and organizational
Lee:development, may be sponsored by the chief executive, but there doesn't
Lee:necessarily always seem that broader leadership, ownership of it as a thing
Lee:because, oh, I'm working on the finances.
Lee:Oh, I'm making sure we are running well operationally.
Lee:They've all got these other responsibilities and, and the culture.
Lee:That is just something that, that's the fluffy side and, and that
Lee:really gets my goat, I have to say
Carrie-Ann:I know don't, I can feel the red mist we talked
Carrie-Ann:about starting to come down.
Carrie-Ann:As you're saying that, Lee, I'm gonna try not to get into a fury about it,
Carrie-Ann:but, but I, yeah, I agree with you there is something about if it is
Carrie-Ann:seen as a separate program of work, it's always going to be somebody.
Carrie-Ann:Else's responsibility to deliver.
Carrie-Ann:And, and culture cannot be, culture cannot be the responsibility of
Carrie-Ann:one or two individuals to deliver.
Carrie-Ann:I use, you know, quotation marks, bunnies, whatever you want to call 'em.
Carrie-Ann:I, I, it can't be it because, It's back to that point we made
Carrie-Ann:about, it's about everyone else's experience of your organization
Carrie-Ann:helping to define that culture.
Carrie-Ann:And not everyone is gonna have a direct experience with one or two
Carrie-Ann:individuals in the organization.
Carrie-Ann:They're having those interactions daily.
Carrie-Ann:They're seeing behaviors being role modeled daily.
Carrie-Ann:They are making choices about how they behave daily.
Carrie-Ann:So, yeah, it's got to be everybody's responsibility.
Carrie-Ann:It can't, it can't just be down to one or two individuals who then
Carrie-Ann:write a report every couple of months that says, oh yes, we've,
Carrie-Ann:like you say, we've done the posters.
Carrie-Ann:Oh yes, we've run a campaign.
Carrie-Ann:Like, but really what, like what's the outcome of all of that?
Carrie-Ann:What are you trying to achieve here in terms of culture and how
Carrie-Ann:are you seeking that feedback to know the culture is changing?
Lee:If someone's listening to this and they're may be not at the top of the tree
Lee:in terms of being able to affect the macro culture piece, but they are working in an
Lee:organization where they're not liking the culture that they're seeing, or they want
Lee:to create a different type of culture that microculture that we were talking about.
Lee:We know microcultures exist, but we know there needs to be some kind of
Lee:alignment between what's happens at local level and, and the macro level.
Lee:So I suppose if you are in a, a, a more junior leadership position, you can be
Lee:in a rock and hard place sometimes if, if the cultures don't align or perhaps
Lee:what you are trying to achieve is undermined by a toxic or slightly, you
Lee:know, not the best type of culture more widely, is there anything you can do
Lee:about it or is it just something that's your lot that you have to deal with?
Carrie-Ann:I mean, I guess it really depends, doesn't it on the organization
Carrie-Ann:that you are working in and, and, and how all of that is impacting.
Carrie-Ann:I think you even as a leader in a more junior position, you, have the opportunity
Carrie-Ann:to affect the culture in your own team and with those people directly around you.
Carrie-Ann:So I think there's something about being aware of your behaviors and
Carrie-Ann:how you're operating in that space.
Carrie-Ann:I think if you are responsible for leading a team or a service, you can have those
Carrie-Ann:conversations about what it feels like to, to work and operate in that space.
Carrie-Ann:You can ask people, uh, what might be good to change?
Carrie-Ann:Like are there ways of working things that need to happen that would
Carrie-Ann:help change it and make people's experiences more positive and therefore,
Carrie-Ann:The culture feel more positive.
Carrie-Ann:I think it's important to try and find those route to, to provide that feedback
Carrie-Ann:beyond your own team in the organization.
Carrie-Ann:But I think again, that's very much linked to what that culture is like.
Carrie-Ann:So are those opportunities open to you to do that?
Carrie-Ann:And do you feel comfortable and positive to speak up and have those conversations
Carrie-Ann:if there is a misalignment there.
Carrie-Ann:I think the thing I would say to be careful of, is obviously in your role as
Carrie-Ann:a leader in that sort of conversation, you can often be the buffer between
Carrie-Ann:what's happening at a more senior level and what's going on in your team.
Carrie-Ann:And I think you need to, to really think about your own wellbeing, your
Carrie-Ann:position, and your own integrity.
Carrie-Ann:When you end up in that position, if there is a, a huge misalignment, if
Carrie-Ann:the alignment is small, I think it's easier maybe to start having those
Carrie-Ann:conversations to say, actually, you know, the experience in my team is this.
Carrie-Ann:And, and maybe that's something that we could share is learning across other
Carrie-Ann:teams to start, working differently or, or focusing on the culture.
Carrie-Ann:If that misalignment is huge, I think there is a bit of a risk that being in
Carrie-Ann:that slightly junior leadership position that you end up being buffeted between
Carrie-Ann:the two and you just end up in a role where you feel like it's your job to
Carrie-Ann:shield your team from all the negative stuff that's happening at the top.
Carrie-Ann:And I think then that's probably when you want to start having conversations
Carrie-Ann:about whether that organization is, is, is the best place for you to be in.
Carrie-Ann:And, and links probably to the other conversation we've had in this series
Carrie-Ann:around psychological safety as well.
Lee:Definitely.
Lee:That's what was running through my mind when you were talking how you
Lee:create that safe space for people is, is really important, I think locally and,
Lee:and more broadly in your organization.
Lee:Okay.
Lee:Let's say you are an organization who has seemed to be doing
Lee:good and doing good things.
Lee:Is it right for you to go about changing your culture when
Lee:things are already going well?
Lee:There are companies who continue to do active work on shifting their culture,
Lee:even though they're in a position of great performance or great outcomes or
Lee:whatever it is that they're striving from an organization point of view.
Lee:And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that as a concept.
Lee:Cause we've talked about the toxic side and I want to look
Lee:at it from the other side.
Carrie-Ann:I, I think there's something for me about, it's all linked to what
Carrie-Ann:you're trying to achieve, isn't it?
Carrie-Ann:So if you know what you are trying to achieve, um, that will probably help
Carrie-Ann:you work out whether the culture shift needs to happen, even if you are already
Carrie-Ann:working in a culture that is perceived or deemed to be positive and good and safe.
Carrie-Ann:I think there's something about organizations and leaders who are very
Carrie-Ann:open to continual improvement and learning where actually they would always say yes
Carrie-Ann:we do need to keep focused on developing and changing and evolving the culture,
Carrie-Ann:um, even though we are in a good space right now, because actually ev everyone
Carrie-Ann:is evolving and learning and growing.
Carrie-Ann:And I guess you could be in an organization that's
Carrie-Ann:got a really great culture.
Carrie-Ann:That everyone who comes into contact with you loves, but then something like
Carrie-Ann:covid happened, which completely changed the way maybe your workforce operated.
Carrie-Ann:And now we've got a lot of remote workers.
Carrie-Ann:So actually how do you need to shift, change, develop, grow your culture to
Carrie-Ann:support the fact that people are maybe working in a completely different space
Carrie-Ann:and environment where they're not coming into contact with each other in real life
Carrie-Ann:every day, for example, which might have helped that positive culture initially.
Carrie-Ann:So I, I do think there is always space to grow and learn and evolve, um,
Carrie-Ann:organizationally and as a leader, I think my word of caution would be, I
Carrie-Ann:guess one of the examples that I'm seeing right now, and I'm not, I'm not close
Carrie-Ann:enough to know what it's felt like and what the culture was like before, but
Carrie-Ann:there's lots on social media and in in the media at the moment around Twitter
Carrie-Ann:and Elon must taken over Twitter.
Carrie-Ann:And I guess some of the perception of that is that actually colleagues
Carrie-Ann:who worked for Twitter before what, you know, felt like it was a positive
Carrie-Ann:place to work, there was innovation, people were happy in that workplace.
Carrie-Ann:Not all of them, I'm absolutely sure, but the, the messages that are coming out
Carrie-Ann:now is that Elon Musk gone in and just decided that everything needs to change.
Carrie-Ann:I'm gonna throw everything up in the air.
Carrie-Ann:I'm gonna sack lots of people, have a totally different approach to where
Carrie-Ann:the, the organization is gonna run.
Carrie-Ann:And for me, I guess maybe the bit that doesn't seem to have taken into
Carrie-Ann:account is that culture piece because absolutely as a leader, sometimes
Carrie-Ann:you need to go in and make difficult, different and radical decisions based
Carrie-Ann:on whatever you are you are wanting to achieve with that organization.
Carrie-Ann:But I think without understanding the culture in which that organization
Carrie-Ann:is operating, um, you run the risk of having a really detrimental effect.
Carrie-Ann:And, and it's a bit of like change for change's sake rather
Carrie-Ann:than change for a purpose.
Lee:I think that's a really good example.
Lee:And it also, I wonder, and this is pure speculation on my part, but um,
Lee:when you were talking about the people working from home, it also made me think
Lee:about the, the changes with different generations and expectations of people
Lee:in different generations and, and the culture of different generations and,
Lee:and what that might bring to a workplace.
Lee:And potentially Twitter is one where there's a, there is a generational
Lee:cultural mismatch as well.
Lee:So yeah, that's, that's an interesting dynamic and reason for why your culture
Lee:will need to shift as well as that micro macro stuff that we've been talking
Lee:about, I think is another reason.
Lee:So, to get to our how-tos to wrap up the episode, how.
Lee:, do you go about making culture, I suppose, part of your leadership
Lee:manifesto if I could be so Grand?
Carrie-Ann:Yes, be so grand.
Carrie-Ann:And also, how are we at that point in the conversation already?
Carrie-Ann:I feel like this could go on for much longer.
Carrie-Ann:Oh, there's loads of things I could touch on that we've covered in this
Carrie-Ann:conversation about, you know, the listening and all of that stuff.
Carrie-Ann:But, but I think the biggest takeaway for me is around actions, not words.
Carrie-Ann:So it is so much about behaviors and people's experiences of those behaviors.
Carrie-Ann:So I think if you want to make a culture part of your leadership
Carrie-Ann:manifesto, you have to be demonstrating all of the actions that will lead
Carrie-Ann:you and your organization to that desired kind of cultural state.
Carrie-Ann:That would definitely be my thing.
Carrie-Ann:Words are too easy.
Carrie-Ann:It's the actions that will really matter.
Lee:I think just linked to that is the accountability piece.
Lee:So, how you celebrate the wins.
Lee:I, it's is slightly off piece, but it makes me think of we've got a
Lee:dog we've had him for about a year
Carrie-Ann:Where is this going?
Lee:But with dog training, we've been told you've got to reward the
Lee:good behaviors that you want to see, that positive reinforcement.
Lee:And for me it's almost like the opposite.
Lee:So you need to show accountability and deal with the poor behaviors
Lee:you don't want to see so that people understand what it is you do want to see.
Carrie-Ann:I love where it went.
Carrie-Ann:Having questioned where it was going.
Carrie-Ann:I love where it went.
Carrie-Ann:Lee
Lee:on that note, I think we'll end there and we'll be back