Is leadership for you?

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We have a joke in our family about putting our

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high heels on a three I suppose I'd throw the question back and

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go do we need to redefine now I'm not sure we do

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welcome to how to take the leap the podcast where we challenge

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the myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader

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today and help you to succeed in post without compromise. I'm Lee

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Griffith

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Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie-Anne Wade and together we

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will be your guides questioning everything we've ever learned

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about leadership sharing our experiences along the way and

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inspiring you to make a real impact in your role visit house

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take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and

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join our community enjoy this episode

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Hello, and welcome to this episode of how

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to take the lead. Hello Hello Lee. I was I sorry, I just I was

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gonna get really formal then and go for those people who don't

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but of course people listen all the time they know who we are.

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And I was about to say I'm Carrie Anne and I'm here with

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the lovely Lee and I am so Lee how are you?

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I'm good I'm really good yes yeah and

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energizing week so far um you know notionin' in my way through

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life.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Of course you I love it. You've got an app for

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every occasion to help keep you organized. You tried to get me

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on the app wagons as well and I do well for a bit and then

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knowing my personality type fade away until you GME back up. But

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yes nation is our new favorite app for this podcast series,

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which is very excited. If notion would like to sponsor an episode

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please feel free if they happen to be listening. I wanted to say

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fabulous blouse you have on Lee, loving it.

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Ditto, ditto for you, you will see yours is the I

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feel like you're really going you've got the 1920s vibe going

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that little bob in the fringes, but also the pattern in the

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Carrie-Ann Wade: scalloped edge is what I was. That's the word I

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was trying. And this only makes any sense if you're watching

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this on YouTube. Of course, if you're listening to us on the

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podcast, we've done really poorly in our description there

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anything that we're wearing, so you can't picture us but I'm

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sure you would have spotted us on socials because there'll be

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some posts there about this episode. So you'll get to see

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what we're wearing. And what a lovely surprise you'll have. If

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you see that after you've listened to the episode. Anyhow,

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we are not here today to chat, fashion, clothes, any of that

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kind of stuff. We are here to tackle a subject that I feel

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like we have touched on in different ways shapes and forms

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a bit other episodes of how to take the lead, but I'm not sure

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we've ever really tackled it head on. And we've obviously

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made some assumptions that people listening to this podcast

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are listening because they are either leaders already or they

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are aspiring leaders of the future. totally distracted now

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by Lee's amazing looking drink. What is that delight?

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I'm totally on the iced coffee protein coffee

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bandwagon here for a moment, I

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Carrie-Ann Wade: thought you were having the same sort of

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cocktail that I was in on the action with and I was about to

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get absolutely massive FOMO sorry, listeners, totally

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distracted viewers will have obviously seen a delightful

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drink up in where was I at? So we have seen that people

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listening to this podcast, have some level of desire to be a

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leader in the future, or they are in some sort of leadership

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position now. But I'm not sure we've ever really just asked is

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leadership for you? So I wanted us to kind of just have a

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conversation about that in this episode, if that's all right

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with you V today. I think we've talked before that drivers and

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motivation may be to lead and also how to be motivated as a

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leader. But I guess I just wanted to know a bit more about

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why people might want to be leaders. And I thought actually,

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maybe that would be a good interview question and one that

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I've never actually had myself. But I thought oh, I'm surprised

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I've never been asked why do you want to be a leader here? So I'm

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gonna break that down for any future interviews that I'm doing

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for myself. And it might be that you are aspiring to be that

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leader. But it's also a relevant question. I think if you've been

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a leader for a while questioning why you want a leadership

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position, why you're putting yourself out there in that

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leadership space. So before we get into the real meat of it, I

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thought it might be interesting and helpful for listeners to

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hear a little bit about our own motivation. So I'm gonna put you

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on the spot, not because I am interviewing you for a job, Lee,

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but I wondered what your motivation was to move into that

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leadership space there, maybe you could tell us a bit more

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about that to just get us off and set the context for the

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conversation.

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It's so interesting. So as you were

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talking, there are lots of different, almost like little

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sub chats that were going on in my head. Was this kind of? Yeah.

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Are you? Are you being interviewed to be a leader or

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being a manager? And is it a hierarchical thing? I mean,

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there's so many different things go in there. Did I want to be a

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leader? I know, I definitely didn't enjoy managing people.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I know. And we've had this chat before,

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haven't we about how comfy we feel in that space? And whether

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we found it particularly rewarding or not? And I think

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we're probably for a change. We were in different spaces with

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that, because I've quite enjoyed managing people, but you're not

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so much.

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No, but but leadership is is different. And

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I do think that you can lead and not manage, you know, I mean,

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obviously, your solo solo leaders, I think what what

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motivated me to step into that leadership leadership there is

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that, I think there are a few things. One, I definitely wanted

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to show the strategic importance of the function and so be a

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leader in my professional area, within my organization, and

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beyond my organization. And maybe we'll touch on this a bit

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later. Because I think sometimes you can be a leader in your

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field, and not necessarily leader in your organization, and

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the two different things. And I wanted to be part of a change

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and make a difference. Absolutely. That that drove me I

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didn't necessarily always like what I was seeing at the top.

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And was, I think it was the red headedness in me was that I want

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to get in there and try and make a difference. And I think that

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was also what drove me to join the types of organizations that

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I joined, rather than just doing PR in a sales marketing, kind of

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focused organization. But I'm gonna be realistic and honest, I

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was very ambitious. And I wanted to be a young director. And I

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definitely wanted the money that came with more senior roles. And

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so it wasn't just as I wasn't as purist of, oh, I want to be a

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leader because I want to do great things. And let's join

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hands and sing songs.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I wanted some of the I wanted some of the

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perks that came with the hierarchical leadership power, I

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suppose. And I don't think we should ever be ashamed to say

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that, because it feels like we say that sometimes with a bit of

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like, oh, and we I know, we've had conversations before about

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knowing your worth and pay, particularly in this space where

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we feel like, you know, equal pays, or non equal pay is an

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issue. But I don't ever think we should shy away from the fact

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that we are motivated by things other than that altruistic sense

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of doing good for others. So I know it's sometimes feels

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awkward to say it, doesn't it, but actually being motivated by

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the desire to earn more money to afford a lifestyle that you want

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to have, for example, isn't always a bad thing. So So I

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think, kudos and appreciate your honesty in that space.

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Absolutely. But I think that's that's also where the management

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versus leadership thing comes in. Because particularly when we

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look at hierarchy, and all of that, because it was a case of,

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I could go into a more senior management position to be paid

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more. I was probably in a leadership space before I was in

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senior management. So it's interesting. And it really

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resonated with me what you said about the strategic importance

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of a function and obviously having both come from the same

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professional background that absolutely it's about really

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important to me from the point of view of my own kind of

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leadership journey and where I've wanted to go and why I've

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wanted to show up in certain spaces, I guess, as a leader, to

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almost prove the worth of the function, which still I find

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challenging that we have to do, and we still have to do that.

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But but that's definitely been a driver, from my point of view

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and in terms of leadership. So that definitely resonated with

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me. And I think you're right, we probably will go on to talk

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about some of that kind of space around. You can be a leader in

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your field of expertise without necessarily being a leader in

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that hierarchical sense, or maybe even being recompensed in

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the way that other leaders might be in your organization for

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sure. I guess for me, from my point of view, There was

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something about wanting to have an impact for others. And that's

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something that's definitely been a driver for me, not just in my

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kind of work career, but life in general, like I get, I honestly

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get pleasure out of seeing other people achieve and being able to

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be part of that support team, if it were to kind of like help

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people to do that. So definitely there was something for me and

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in believing that being in the leadership space would enable me

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to have more impact for others, to push and stretch other people

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to achieve their goals, but also to push and stretch myself a bit

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as well, I think, and I think we've talked about this before

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Lee, but I hadn't necessarily seen that many people like me in

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leadership roles early in my career. And when I say like me,

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I guess I mean, a female leader who didn't feel the need to be

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more masculine in their behavior or approach, and somebody who

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was compassionate and good humoured and kind and interested

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in the person as much as or if not more so than the process, if

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that kind of makes sense. So it felt like there was some

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opportunities for me to be able to challenge that and challenge

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myself to see if actually, I could operate as a leader, with

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my own personality type and kind of behaviors that I have. So I

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guess there's also been something for me, as I've

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progressed in the leadership space about feeling like I have

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received support and guidance to support my career, and actually

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being a leader has given me the opportunity to I hope to do the

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same for others. And that's felt, I felt a real sense of

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responsibility around that, I think in terms of actually

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passing that on, and bringing, bringing new people and new

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talent forward. So they were just my reflections when I was

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thinking about my motivation to lead but absolutely agree with

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there was a level of motivation of like, I want to be able to

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get a mortgage and buy a house and have a nice life and have a

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lovely holiday as well. And actually, quite often, as you

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say, as a sort of promotional, linear hierarchical route kind

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of leads to that which might put you in leadership positions. So

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yeah, hopefully, some of what we've said is resonated with

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people listening. And I'd be really intrigued to know from,

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from listeners about kind of what's motivating them to be in

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that leadership space, or potentially wants to be a leader

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in the future. So DMS on the socials, get in touch via the

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email if you want to share some of your stories, because I would

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be really intrigued to hear that. Sure. So it's interesting,

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because my second question without actually knowing where

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some of your journey and your experience was going to take us

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was around that bit about promotion, and that hierarchical

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kind of approach to leadership, and you know, both of our own

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stories have got some of that in there, being more sick being in

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more senior positions, like climbing that linear ladder. So

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I guess the first part of my question is, do we feel that

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kind of leadership is too focused on that hierarchy? And

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maybe that's striving to get to the top? Is that still a thing

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in the leadership? Well, do you think they,

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I think it is, I think if you look at it from an

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organizational view, then yes, people see it as a hierarchical,

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whether you cut it at a certain paygrade, or a certain job title

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or whatever, there is still a culture of people in an

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organization that they will see as their top leaders, senior

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leaders, whatever, regardless of whether those individuals see

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themselves as leaders or not. And, and I reflect on when I was

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in my corporate life, and we did a leadership development program

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with people who are of a certain band in and higher. We used to

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ask that question of, you know, who in the room sees themselves

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as leader to get a gauge and it was, and it was really

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interesting. Not that many people did yet probably because

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of their positional power, the organization, certainly the

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board would have seen these people as leaders because they

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had position and influence, and they were setting direction and

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all of that kind of stuff. But the individuals, the vast

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majority didn't see themselves in that role as leader. So I do

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think it's a really interesting, nuanced organization versus

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person perspective. Absolutely.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: And and we've talked before as well, haven't

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we, about how comfortable people are as identify and as leaders,

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so they might be very comfortable to identify by their

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job title, which potentially might be a very In year, one

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director of head of whatever that job title might be, is easy

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to say. But it seems more challenging in some respects for

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people to say, I'm a senior leader in this organization. And

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I don't know whether that's about perhaps the perceived

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level of accountability that comes with being a leader versus

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being a, maybe it's back to that point about leader versus

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manager, Senior Manager in your in your profession, that maybe

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that feels less of a big responsibility and burden on

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your shoulders, I don't know. But I have noticed that that

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people struggle to kind of talk about themselves a lot as

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leaders, even though they are in what would be perceived to be

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senior leadership positions, unless

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they think it's unless they think it's implied

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by their job title. So they don't feel you know,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: they don't want to do the depth because, like

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you say, putting your high heels on and like maybe being a bit

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show off it. But so there's just there's so much in that isn't

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there, and it's back to your point about often, there's

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something about person versus position that doesn't

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necessarily always align, perhaps,

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I think there's something about we look at it

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from an individual perspective, I think whether you see yourself

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as a leader or not, probably also goes back to what you see

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as your purpose and the intent of what it is you're trying to

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do. So some people just wants to do that job because of what they

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get from the job, whether it's pay convenience, or whatever,

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some people go into a job, because they want to make

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change, they've got that talk of that fire in the belly, that you

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know, they've seen an injustice, they want to make something

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happen. They want to show up as a specialist in their area and

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excelling. What it is they do sometimes it's it's really

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complex, and it's a mismatch of all of those things. So I think

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probably that sense of, do I feel like I'm leading others,

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and I'm setting direction and all that probably comes down to

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what's my, what's my purpose in my tech, my intent into the day,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: and we did discuss about being clear, clear

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on your purposes, as a leader in that being really important. So

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you've touched on this, sorry, you're gonna say something?

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Well, so say Does it matter? Like,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Well, I'm just about to ask you a question a

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little bit like that around weather matters, I guess more

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linked to the conversation we've had about being an expert in

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your field versus being in a hierarchical position of power

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in your organization. So I wanted to explore with you

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exactly that, can you be a leader in a different way? And

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can you be a leader without that kind of linear ladder climb to

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sort of positions of what we perceive to be authority? So we

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have talked about being experts in your field voices that other

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people respect and listen to? So I guess you've already started

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to explain some of that. Is that possible? Is it possible to be a

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leader without having that kind of job? Title slash position of

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power in your organization? Yeah. That's a good question.

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That didn't lie. Yes, I guess it's carry on. Even.

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So I think it depends on whether you are

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wanting to be clear in defining yourself as a leader or is a

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leadership something that others define you by? And interesting.

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And is it a case of a leader is someone that takes people with

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them has vision and all that, so you don't need to necessarily

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have positional power, we did that power episode where we

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talked about all the different types of power, you might be

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able to utilize as a leader. And I suppose each of those, if you

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do utilize them, shows leadership in one way or

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another. So I think there is, we even know, if you are trying to

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make change happen in your organization, you go to people

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who are able to influence who are able to inspire or who are

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able to take people, they won't necessarily be the department

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heads, they won't necessarily be the most senior directors in

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that hierarchical sense. But they will be the people who

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might have air of those that are likely to

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Carrie-Ann Wade: challenge the change. Or they might be the

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ones who just have a great energy about them. And we'll go

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Go get him. Let's do it kind of attitude, and that's who you

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want around you and all of those leadership qualities. So I think

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it's I don't think this is a clear cut one. No, and it is

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that point, isn't it? Whether you are intending in your

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actions to position yourself in some sort of leadership It role,

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regardless of as you say, whether or not that's recognized

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by by what your actual job is in the organization, or whether or

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not that leadership has almost been thrust upon you, because

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other people see you as a trusted person whose guidance

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they want to take whose footsteps they want to follow

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in, you know, however, we want to describe that. And sometimes

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you might have the perfect mix of both of those. And I guess

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sometimes, it's one or the other, I guess the challenge

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comes if you are intentionally trying to position yourself as a

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leader, but actually other people see you as one, then

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actually, are you? And I think my answer would be no. Like, it

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may be by self defined title, but not by actual action. So

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that is quite interesting. And in response to the last

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question, you talked a lot about those personal drivers that you

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might have to want to be a leader, whether that is, you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

know, the fire in your belly to make a change to make difference

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to people, whether there's a very specific agenda that you

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want to be known as the expert in? Because you're interested in

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that space? And, and I guess, well, we would all love to be

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completely altruistic and about the greater good. I was just

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wondering if you're one of those leaders somewhere who isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:21:16

getting the recompense because they're not in a defined

Lee Griffith: 00:21:19

leadership role in an organization? I mean, what is

Lee Griffith: 00:21:23

the reward for you in that space? As a leader? Why Why

Lee Griffith: 00:21:26

would you be showing up there?

Lee Griffith: 00:21:28

I'm struggling to come with a clear answer,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:32

because I do think it is, if you aren't, if you aren't doing it,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

because you want it as a pay outcome, let's say for example,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:43

there will always be something. So I'm thinking about when I was

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

in my early stages of my career, and I was the most senior person

Lee Griffith: 00:21:52

in my area of expertise as it were, but I wasn't from a pay

Lee Griffith: 00:21:57

perspective, from a hierarchy perspective, I didn't have that

Lee Griffith: 00:22:05

I wouldn't have been seen as a leader, I wouldn't have probably

Lee Griffith: 00:22:07

been round the table, if they said, Oh, we're going to take

Lee Griffith: 00:22:10

everyone and put them in one of these development programs, for

Lee Griffith: 00:22:12

example. But I had influence. And I was able to demonstrate my

Lee Griffith: 00:22:20

expertise, because I was the only one with that knowledge

Lee Griffith: 00:22:25

and, and understanding and got in front of the people that it

Lee Griffith: 00:22:29

matters. So for me, I was able to demonstrate leadership in my

Lee Griffith: 00:22:32

area, I was able to influence what some of the senior leaders

Lee Griffith: 00:22:35

were doing. And even though I wasn't a senior leader, myself,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:39

that was the outcome I was seeking. I was I wanted that

Lee Griffith: 00:22:42

strategic impact, I wanted them to take my area seriously.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think that's a really interesting

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

point to cover. And I guess there's a slight aside, I have

Lee Griffith: 00:22:50

actually had a couple of recent conversations and, and talking

Lee Griffith: 00:22:54

about, as we did at the start trying to prove the strategic

Lee Griffith: 00:22:58

importance of our own function, where I have had conversations

Lee Griffith: 00:23:03

with people who say exactly your point, I was the most senior

Lee Griffith: 00:23:06

communicator in my organization, or I am at, but I'm nowhere near

Lee Griffith: 00:23:11

as senior as the people that I'm expected to work with on a very

Lee Griffith: 00:23:15

regular basis, and kind of feeling that difference in

Lee Griffith: 00:23:20

positional power, I guess, when they're showing up for meetings,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:23

and they're in spaces where they're working with those

Lee Griffith: 00:23:26

people and kind of questioning themselves. Like why would

Lee Griffith: 00:23:29

people listen to me because they're all directors or heads

Lee Griffith: 00:23:33

up, and I'm just a, which I hate. I hate that kind of I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:23:36

just do this term. But that's for another conversation. And so

Lee Griffith: 00:23:40

I guess it is just quite interesting, isn't it about how

Lee Griffith: 00:23:43

you then do exactly as you've said, you've done which is just

Lee Griffith: 00:23:46

show up with intent to be strategic and prove your level

Lee Griffith: 00:23:49

of expertise and add that value into the space. Recognizing but

Lee Griffith: 00:23:55

not getting too hung up on the fact that your physical position

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

in terms of your job isn't as senior as the people that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:24:01

working with. And I guess, for some people there, there might

Lee Griffith: 00:24:04

be an argument to prove that actually, you are operating at

Lee Griffith: 00:24:07

that level. And maybe you should be rewarded as such. But that's

Lee Griffith: 00:24:11

not always where we find ourselves luckily.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:15

And I also recognized that I needed to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:19

broaden my influence and my areas of responsibility if I

Lee Griffith: 00:24:26

wanted to be seen as an equal and to move up that hierarchical

Lee Griffith: 00:24:30

ladder. So there was a recognition that I wasn't going

Lee Griffith: 00:24:32

to have rewards. As we talked about, there wasn't that route

Lee Griffith: 00:24:40

up there for me if I stayed in my single specialist area I had

Lee Griffith: 00:24:45

to hire to broaden that out and that I believe was a benefit to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:49

the organization and to me personally. That's why I can get

Lee Griffith: 00:24:53

a bit when people get hung up on we need this title at this level

Lee Griffith: 00:24:57

because that isn't what we're striving for. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. Thank you. That's really, really

Lee Griffith: 00:25:03

helpful, I think and leads a little bit on to the next

Lee Griffith: 00:25:07

question for me, when you are in a predefined leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:25:11

position, there are deliverables that you will be expected to

Lee Griffith: 00:25:16

kind of work on around accountability and performance.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:20

But again, that's very much about being in a sort of gifted

Lee Griffith: 00:25:23

leadership position in an organization that has a job

Lee Griffith: 00:25:26

title. We've talked about leaders not always needing to be

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

in those senior positions in an organization to actually be seen

Lee Griffith: 00:25:35

as a leader or operate as a leader. So do we need to define

Lee Griffith: 00:25:39

what we mean by leadership? Because clearly, no one size

Lee Griffith: 00:25:43

fits all? Or, you know, how do we start to have those

Lee Griffith: 00:25:47

conversations to make leadership less about being the person at

Lee Griffith: 00:25:51

the top of the organization all the time?

Lee Griffith: 00:25:55

I'm not sure. We need to redefine what leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:25:58

is, I think the lens of which we talk about hierarchy, and

Lee Griffith: 00:26:02

leadership is just one element of it. But I think when people

Lee Griffith: 00:26:07

describe what leadership is to, then that's when you see the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:12

variety and very rarely, when people describe what leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:26:16

means to them, do they actually reference hierarchy. And so I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:22

think it's something that we perhaps impose in our view of,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:29

particularly, again, this organizational versus person

Lee Griffith: 00:26:32

view. But I think when you when you boil it down to what do the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:37

person on the street, or the person in your organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:39

when you say, who's a leader? What does good leadership look

Lee Griffith: 00:26:42

like? They'll give you values and qualities and attributes.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:48

They don't say, oh, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: the chief executive or whatever. Yeah, so

Lee Griffith: 00:26:53

I'm not sure we do need to redefine it. For me, I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:57

think I like to talk about this impactful leadership. So yes,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:02

you might be a leader in your title or the type of power you

Lee Griffith: 00:27:07

have. But if you're not having the right impact, then you're

Lee Griffith: 00:27:12

perhaps not seen as a leader in my eyes. So I think that's

Lee Griffith: 00:27:16

that's the key, whether you've got the vision, and you can take

Lee Griffith: 00:27:22

people with you, whether you build trust, whether you live

Lee Griffith: 00:27:26

your values and act of integrity, whether you

Lee Griffith: 00:27:30

communicate well and engage and all of those kinds of things.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

Those are the leadership qualities that people will

Lee Griffith: 00:27:37

reference when they talk about what good leadership looks like.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:41

And so I guess I bring it back to that point, and maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:27:45

rephrase the question. That was the theme of this episode. So

Lee Griffith: 00:27:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: we asked is leadership for you, and we've

Lee Griffith: 00:27:53

kind of talked about doesn't have to be about the position

Lee Griffith: 00:27:56

you have in the organization. But I guess then what's in it

Lee Griffith: 00:28:00

for you to be a leader? It isn't about that positional power. And

Lee Griffith: 00:28:05

obviously, you and I are very much about the fact that there

Lee Griffith: 00:28:07

are all those other aspects to being a leader, what's in it for

Lee Griffith: 00:28:11

you as a person to want to step into that leadership space?

Lee Griffith: 00:28:15

Like, what are you going to gain from positioning yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:28:19

leader? I guess, I'm hesitating,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

because do leaders think in a way that is what's to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:29

gain from this, and I'm not sure. I'm sure if people will

Lee Griffith: 00:28:36

meet. But if we look at it through the lens of I want to be

Lee Griffith: 00:28:38

a senior manager and I want the hierarchy in power. I think they

Lee Griffith: 00:28:42

probably do look more at what's the reward and gain for doing

Lee Griffith: 00:28:45

this. But I'm just I'm not sure whether people who go I want to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:52

be a lead or thinking. I think their thing is I want to this is

Lee Griffith: 00:28:58

an outcome that I'm seeking to achieve. This is a difference I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:02

want to make. And those are the things that I tend to hear I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:04

want to make things. You I want to kind of help communicate as

Lee Griffith: 00:29:09

fries. That's your that's the impact and outcome that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:13

seeking in the leadership that you offer, for example.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:18

Carrie-Ann Wade: So I guess, yeah, I guess maybe gain is not

Lee Griffith: 00:29:21

the right word, then I guess it's what's the personal reward

Lee Griffith: 00:29:24

for you because being a leader is hard. It's hard work often in

Lee Griffith: 00:29:27

that space. So what's the reward? And I guess what we're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:30

saying is the reward of putting yourself out there and

Lee Griffith: 00:29:34

developing and growing yourself and positioning yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:37

leader is to have that impact that you want to have deliver on

Lee Griffith: 00:29:42

that purpose that's really driving you in terms of you've

Lee Griffith: 00:29:45

said it that fire in your belly, delivering a change being

Lee Griffith: 00:29:49

impactful. You know, moving something forward to towards a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:53

more positive solution, whatever that might be. That's the thing

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

that drives you to want to be elite he'd, rather than anything

Lee Griffith: 00:30:01

else around whether you've got the right job title, or what

Lee Griffith: 00:30:04

your pay grade might be how other people potentially are

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

perceiving you or not that actually what your personal

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

reward is for wanting to be a leader, if you're considering

Lee Griffith: 00:30:16

that is that you are having an impact or making a change in the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:20

space that's most important to you. Does that feel like a good

Lee Griffith: 00:30:25

kind of way? Describe it. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:30:27

And I think it's okay. Not to want to be a leader

Lee Griffith: 00:30:32

as well. I think if you're in that positional power of

Lee Griffith: 00:30:37

authority, where others expect you to be a leader, then you do

Lee Griffith: 00:30:41

need to do some work to figure out how people around you are

Lee Griffith: 00:30:45

going to get what they need. So that vision direction, blah,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:49

blah, blah. But I think otherwise, if you know more

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

generally, if you haven't got that passion, or you haven't got

Lee Griffith: 00:31:02

that drive to want to make change, you don't need to worry

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

about am I a leader or not? Because I do think it's more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:10

about what what other people see you as what you title yourself.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

Absolutely.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:16

Carrie-Ann Wade: And you've talked a little bit about this,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:18

and it was just slightly off piste. But I thought, an

Lee Griffith: 00:31:22

interesting part of this conversation. But you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:25

you've talked about like, if you are a leader, or you maybe even

Lee Griffith: 00:31:29

have that built in desire and drive to lead and be a leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:34

what happens when you do reach, like the most senior leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:31:38

position you might be able to find yourself in? Is that the

Lee Griffith: 00:31:42

point at which your leadership growth stops? Or is there more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:47

to be achieved? So we've said, it's not necessarily about being

Lee Griffith: 00:31:50

a CEO, or being a director of x. But actually, if that is part of

Lee Griffith: 00:31:55

your career trajectory, and your drive and ambition forward to

Lee Griffith: 00:32:00

grow and develop as a leader? When you get there, then then

Lee Griffith: 00:32:03

like, what happens?

Lee Griffith: 00:32:07

I think I don't think it's a question of whether

Lee Griffith: 00:32:10

you stay being a leader or or not, I think you probably the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:15

types of questions is, do I stay in this post? Or not? Do I go on

Lee Griffith: 00:32:20

to do something else in somewhere else? Or does my

Lee Griffith: 00:32:24

leadership change? I think each organization has its own

Lee Griffith: 00:32:28

challenge. And so even if you have made it to the top in an

Lee Griffith: 00:32:33

organization, you can go to somewhere else, and it will feel

Lee Griffith: 00:32:38

completely different. Or if you don't want to get to the top but

Lee Griffith: 00:32:41

you want to be a leader in your field, then it might be there's

Lee Griffith: 00:32:45

a particular element of an area of work that you're really

Lee Griffith: 00:32:49

interested in, you want to take forward in some way. And so you,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:53

you know, you that's where you put your your interest and your

Lee Griffith: 00:32:57

energy into that. So I think there's ways that you can,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:01

you've got to find what's going to float your boat and keep you

Lee Griffith: 00:33:04

motivated. And it goes back to that episode that we did around

Lee Griffith: 00:33:06

motivation. How do you stay motivated? And so I don't think

Lee Griffith: 00:33:10

it's a case of do I step away from being a leader? I think

Lee Griffith: 00:33:13

it's about do I stay where I am? Or do I need to find a different

Lee Griffith: 00:33:18

challenge in a different guise?

Lee Griffith: 00:33:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think it's about for me that kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:33:22

question or questions about, you know, how much of this is about

Lee Griffith: 00:33:26

your own growth as a leader, and that might be then about, okay,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:30

I need to step away in the this for another cause or in another

Lee Griffith: 00:33:34

organization? And how much of it might actually be about okay,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:37

I've, I've reached this space here now. But actually, is this

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

organization on a growth trajectory? Does this

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

organization need to change or shift focus in some way? And I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:48

guess it's about understanding the two of those to kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:33:51

know, where you might be the best fit in terms of really

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

being able to have that impact that you always talk about as a

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

leader? Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:59

yeah, absolutely. You you. You mentioned the word

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

one size doesn't fit all.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:04

Carrie-Ann Wade: You didn't actually mention it in that way.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:06

But but that's what we were getting that we're getting one

Lee Griffith: 00:34:09

size doesn't fit all. It's not a one size fits all, kind of a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

great thing. And

Lee Griffith: 00:34:14

so I think that's that's part of it. You

Lee Griffith: 00:34:16

understanding what, who you are as a leader, and what you offer,

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

and what you bring, will determine where you go next.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:24

Because you're you're not going to be all things for all

Lee Griffith: 00:34:27

seasons.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:30

Carrie-Ann Wade: Like, love the little frown you did that does

Lee Griffith: 00:34:32

make sense. By the way, in case you were wondering if you've

Lee Griffith: 00:34:35

thrown elitism into the mix at that point. So it was sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:34:40

conversation and debate hasn't put people off, wanting to be in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:46

that leadership space. And we're assuming that people might be

Lee Griffith: 00:34:49

asking the question of themselves about whether

Lee Griffith: 00:34:52

leadership's for them. I guess it feels like we've got to that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

time in the conversation where we might want to give some

Lee Griffith: 00:34:59

practical advice or tips to people? So, and it doesn't have

Lee Griffith: 00:35:03

to be one I've said one, but it might be more than one Li. But

Lee Griffith: 00:35:07

what one action? Do you think that people could take away from

Lee Griffith: 00:35:12

having listened to this conversation to consider in

Lee Griffith: 00:35:15

terms of whether they want to step into or stay in that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:19

leadership space and determine whether leadership is for them

Lee Griffith: 00:35:22

or not?

Lee Griffith: 00:35:25

I think it's less than focus less on the word

Lee Griffith: 00:35:30

leadership and focus more on your why go back to what is it

Lee Griffith: 00:35:35

you're trying to achieve? And why you trying to achieve it?

Lee Griffith: 00:35:38

And I think having a clarity in that answer will determine where

Lee Griffith: 00:35:43

you go on in your career. And whether that's leadership or

Lee Griffith: 00:35:47

not, I love that it's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:49

Carrie-Ann Wade: really similar to what I thought about which

Lee Griffith: 00:35:51

was about so you've said why it was about purpose. So what's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:56

your purpose and your motivation? And that will help

Lee Griffith: 00:35:59

determine whether being in that leadership space is the right

Lee Griffith: 00:36:02

way to deliver on that purpose and motivation or not, and it

Lee Griffith: 00:36:06

might not be and that's absolutely okay, too. So how

Lee Griffith: 00:36:11

we're completely aligned, but there was definitely one action

Lee Griffith: 00:36:14

people could take away from this episode. So the How to is to go

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

away and think about that question if you're considering

Lee Griffith: 00:36:22

whether leadership is for you or not, and to be absolutely okay

Lee Griffith: 00:36:25

with the fact that it might not be. It's not for everyone. Is

Lee Griffith: 00:36:29

it? So? Interesting. Thank you so much for your insight and

Lee Griffith: 00:36:34

challenge in this episode in terms of getting us to think a

Lee Griffith: 00:36:39

bit differently about that more personalized, individual

Lee Griffith: 00:36:42

question about whether leadership.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:46

Thank you. It's lovely talking to you. Thanks

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

for listening. Don't forget to hit follow to make sure you get

Lee Griffith: 00:36:54

the next episode. And if today's discussion resonated, please

Lee Griffith: 00:36:57

leave a review on Apple podcasts.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:02

can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

Lee Griffith: 00:37:06

build your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to

Lee Griffith: 00:37:09

take the lead.substack.com To find out more. And if

Lee Griffith: 00:37:12

you want to work with us to challenge and change

Lee Griffith: 00:37:14

leadership in your organization. Get in touch by dropping us an

Lee Griffith: 00:37:17

email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:20

socials. Until next week. Get out there

Lee Griffith: 00:37:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: and take the lead