Motivating the motivator

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

Will I, or will I not still be engaged?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:02

That's the question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

If I'm not you'll know, I've done my love language test and it went badly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:47

Welcome to this episode of how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:51

First of all, I'm quite excited because I can't believe how many episodes

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

we are into this series already.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

I'm not sure where the time is gone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:58

I'm excited and also slightly sad, 'cos I feel like we're coming to to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

the other end of the series almost now we've passed the halfway mark Lee.

Lee: 00:01:04

Wow.

Lee: 00:01:05

It's gone quite quickly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

And in this episode, we are going to talk about motivation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

Before we get into the nitty gritty of it, Lee, how motivated are you feeling today?

Lee: 00:01:16

Today right now.

Lee: 00:01:17

Well, I'd say I started this morning at four out 10 motivation and

Lee: 00:01:21

just wanted a big cup of tea and watch a bit of location location.

Lee: 00:01:25

And that was all I was worthy of this morning.

Lee: 00:01:28

Now I'd say having ticked off quite a few of my to-do list, I'm at a solid

Lee: 00:01:33

eight out of 10 motivation, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

A solid 8 out of 10, I feel like that's quite a good

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

score on the motivation front.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:40

Thank you for indulging me and sharing Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:42

And I'm glad your motivation has increased throughout the day as we've

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:45

headed towards recording this podcast.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

And that you're not still on a four, cuz that would've been really hard

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:50

work for me to get your motivation levels up for a good podcast episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:54

The reason that we are going to have a discussion about motivation is really

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:59

because obviously this whole podcast is about being a leader and leadership and

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:05

more often than not one of the roles that you play as a leader is to be the

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:11

person who motivates everybody else.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:13

So chief motivator, somebody who's there to inspire and motivate

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:18

others to take them on a journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

To motivate them to deliver certain things as part of your strategy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:25

So you have a big role, I think, as a leader to be that

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

motivation for other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

But what I was really interested in spending a little bit of

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:33

time exploring is about where do leaders get their motivation from.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

So if you are the leader and you are there to motivate everybody else how

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:43

do you get your motivation as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

So I'm going to put you on the spot again, Lee and ask you for your thoughts.

Lee: 00:02:51

Wow.

Lee: 00:02:52

How do you get your motivation?

Lee: 00:02:55

Well I think not to cop out from this question, but I almost think

Lee: 00:02:58

it's not really, it's not limited to when you're a leader only

Lee: 00:03:02

like I've got my leader hat on.

Lee: 00:03:03

How am I motivated?

Lee: 00:03:04

I do think it is closely aligned to understanding what motivates you

Lee: 00:03:09

in life in general is probably a pretty good first starting point.

Lee: 00:03:14

It also made me think about, have you ever done your love language test?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:19

Er, no it sounds like something out of Cosmo magazine from

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:23

being a teenager, a love language test.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

Talk to me about this Lee.

Lee: 00:03:27

I haven't done it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

oh, I thought we were getting the big reveal then

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

about what your love language is.

Lee: 00:03:32

but it seems to be something that like, I've heard loads of

Lee: 00:03:35

people talking about in the last six to 12 months, everyone's talking

Lee: 00:03:39

about, oh, that's my love language.

Lee: 00:03:41

Or, so, so and so's done this and they're talking my love language and whatnot.

Lee: 00:03:45

And so it's a test apparently that works out what five love languages,

Lee: 00:03:49

you and your partner speak.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

I'm already feeling clammy about the fact that there'll probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:54

be completely different ones and I'll find out that it is all gonna go wrong.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:57

I don't wanna do this test.

Lee: 00:03:59

But it got me thinking it is linked to motivation.

Lee: 00:04:02

So the five tests are something like is your love language,

Lee: 00:04:06

words, and affirmation based.

Lee: 00:04:08

Is it by someone doing something for you?

Lee: 00:04:11

Is it receiving a gift.

Lee: 00:04:14

Is it that feeling of a physical touch?

Lee: 00:04:16

So I suppose in a leadership point of view, is it a handshake high five, a hug?

Lee: 00:04:21

Or is it being able to spend quality time doing something that matters?

Lee: 00:04:25

So I thought that when we talk about what motivates you and how do you

Lee: 00:04:30

find your motivation, I don't know why my mind immediately went there,

Lee: 00:04:34

but it was that thing of if you know what your love language is, maybe

Lee: 00:04:37

you've already done a bit of work to figure out your motivation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:41

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:42

I will explore a little bit more about like where leaders get their motivation

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

from, but that does, helpfully lead us onto the kind of how doesn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:48

How do you work out what motivates you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:51

But, yeah I, I guess It's about understanding more about yourself, isn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:55

it as a person and how that translates then to you as a leader, because like you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

say, it's not just about your leadership in terms of thinking about motivation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:04

And there are lots of different motivations aren't there for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:07

Some people are very much financially rewarded or they feel very motivated by

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:13

status and power, which as I'm saying, all of these words make me personally

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:18

feel very icky because they are not the things that motivate me at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:22

But as you say, other people more motivated about, you know, the,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

the quality at which they maybe can deliver something or the

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:30

relationships that they build and the people that they spend time with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:34

I think there is something about having to work out where your motivations

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:37

come from as an individual and then how you can apply them in, your leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:42

role and your leadership thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:44

So you've touched on it a little bit, Lee, about how do you work it out?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:48

you've talked about doing your love language test.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:51

So maybe it's more about your leadership language test, maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:54

that's something we need to work on Lee

Lee: 00:05:56

I think there's something already out there, which is that

Lee: 00:05:58

Maslow hierarchy of needs, which is probably a little less Cosmo

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:02

A little less tabloid.

Lee: 00:06:03

That is absolutely the model around a person's motivation

Lee: 00:06:09

increases as their needs are met.

Lee: 00:06:11

So I don't know all the hierarchy, but I know it's around basic

Lee: 00:06:16

needs you need to have to live.

Lee: 00:06:18

Psychological needs, so I suppose, as you say, accomplishment, security,

Lee: 00:06:24

belonging, to maybe that self fulfillment, when you realize that

Lee: 00:06:28

you' re having great experiences or you are growing as a leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:32

Yeah, definitely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:32

And there, there was something for me when I was thinking about this, like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:35

how do you work out what motivates you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:38

There was lots in there for me around what brings me joy in my leadership role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:42

When, and where, and what are the times in my leadership life, where

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:46

I feel like I'm having a real impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:49

Where are those points where I feel like I've done a really good job because,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:54

and I guess it's really funny because when I reflect on that, I can probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

remember more of those times when I wasn't in a leadership position where I could

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:03

identify where I felt like I'd done a really good job versus the times as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:07

leader where I've probably felt that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:09

And I don't know if some of that is about what you were saying

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:11

around that feedback loop.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:12

Like where are you getting that feedback from?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:14

Are you motivated by people validating what you've done giving you feedback,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:19

telling you that you've done a good job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:21

So I think it is really important to start to think as a leader about what

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:25

actually does motivate you and how you can define that for yourself so that you can

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:31

factor that into the way that you work.

Lee: 00:07:33

Yeah, but I think it links back to your bigger vision and purpose, and we

Lee: 00:07:38

all have them as individuals and we've spoken about them in past episodes.

Lee: 00:07:42

I think once you understand that why and the big picture of what you are trying to

Lee: 00:07:48

achieve, it can make it easier as a leader to break that down and go, right well, if

Lee: 00:07:53

this is a step towards me achieving that, that might be my motivation for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

And I guess as we've been talking, there's been something for me as

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:02

well around you talked about like getting your needs met and how you

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:05

work through that hierarchy of need in terms of fulfillment and motivation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:10

And I think sometimes as a leader, it can be, I don't want to say easy,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:15

but I think you can sometimes feel guilty about wanting to have your

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:19

personal needs met as a leader as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:22

Because again, I think that ties back to like, it's your job to help everyone else

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:25

get what they need from you as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:28

But actually sometimes you can neglect what you might need.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:31

And I think then when you start to think about it, there'll be certain

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

people in leadership roles who maybe feel a bit guilty for thinking, actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:39

I'm not getting what I need at the moment to motivate me and energize me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:43

And I need to think about doing something differently to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:46

And I think sometimes it can come with that kind of that guilt or that sense

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

of, well I'm the leader so I don't deserve to take that time away from

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:53

other people to focus on what I need.

Lee: 00:08:56

But I have seen the other flip side of that, where there are

Lee: 00:08:59

leaders that think nothing of, but themselves and don't think about, where

Lee: 00:09:04

there are ego led leaders and they absolutely are always striving in the

Lee: 00:09:09

pursuit of their ego being boosted.

Lee: 00:09:11

And that's what motivates them to the pursuit that they're not thinking

Lee: 00:09:16

about the motivation of their teams.

Lee: 00:09:17

So I do think as a leader, you've got to get that balance, right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

So a helpful tip there, I think about how you are working out,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

what motivates you, you also need to be thinking about the impact you're having

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:27

on other people and how that comes across when you are thinking about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:31

So, balance, I think was, a helpful word to mention there.

Lee: 00:09:34

I also think that there is something about what motivates you might not be

Lee: 00:09:41

what motivates other people in your team.

Lee: 00:09:43

And I know that I'm less bothered by words, for example, I love a gift, love

Lee: 00:09:49

spending time doing things with other people and doing things that I like.

Lee: 00:09:54

And I'm a completer finisher.

Lee: 00:09:55

So I absolutely love the tick of a box and that satisfaction of a job being done.

Lee: 00:10:01

But recognizing when I was a leader that my team perhaps do

Lee: 00:10:07

want the words don't want the gift.

Lee: 00:10:09

Don't like finishing stuff.

Lee: 00:10:11

So that that's part of the balance as well.

Lee: 00:10:13

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:14

And I think we have probably mentioned this before, around, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

know, some people respond really well to being thanked, whereas

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:20

other people don't want that because they're like, I'm just doing my job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:23

So like, don't keep thanking me for it.

Lee: 00:10:25

Give me the money..

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:25

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:26

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:26

I want money.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:27

I, yeah, I want an extra day off, you know, whatever it is or some people want,

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:31

change different projects to be part of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

So there is something as well, I guess, about working out what

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:36

motivates other people as well as what motivates you and not being so

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:40

stuck in your own motivations that you neglect the needs of other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

So that's, a really important point that you raise there Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:48

And we have mentioned that point that some people are motivated

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

by validation and by gratitude.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:55

And I guess often as a leader, you don't expect to be thanked as were

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

for the job that you are doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:02

I think that can be natural bit of the territory as a leader that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:06

expect to be thanked or being told that you are doing a good job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:09

So I'd just be interested to hear your thoughts about if that is part

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:14

of what motivates you as an individual and you are in a leadership role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:18

how do you manage that motivation for yourself and, how do you deal

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:22

with the fact that you might not always get the thanks and the praise

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:25

that might normally motivate you?

Lee: 00:11:28

It's a hard one to reflect on in some ways, because that doesn't motivate me.

Lee: 00:11:32

So I can only assume what it might feel like if you don't get that.

Lee: 00:11:38

. What I found interesting was, I read somewhere.

Lee: 00:11:40

It might have been when I was doing some studies a couple of years ago that 75%

Lee: 00:11:44

of people are motivated by what they don't want rather than what they do want.

Lee: 00:11:49

So I would say maybe the, the thing for someone who's perhaps getting that

Lee: 00:11:55

type of feedback is to flip it the other way and think well, at least

Lee: 00:11:58

I'm not getting negative feedback and not been told that I've done

Lee: 00:12:02

a rubbish job or whatever . Haha..

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:04

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:05

And I think you were talking before as well about how you can consider the needs

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:09

of your wider team and how that links into your motivation and their motivation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:14

And I think there's something for me around that sort of gratitude,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:19

thanks piece that, like you say not quite flipping it to what you don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

want, but maybe just reframing that to be about successes and actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:27

creating a culture within your team and organization where you do celebrate

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:31

successes you do talk about the things that have gone really well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:35

And I think in some respects that can give you some of that

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:39

validation and some of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:41

That thanks that you might be looking for, but through a slightly different

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:44

lens through the lens of the, you know, the wider team and the, organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:48

So creating that culture where the culture isn't learning from the things

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:52

that have gone wrong, but actually sharing the great stuff that's going really well

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:56

I think can, can be a powerful tool to help motivate you if you are somebody who

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:01

probably is more motivated by validation and, and sort of thanks and gratitude.

Lee: 00:13:06

I think you could also get that maybe if you are doing that reflection

Lee: 00:13:10

piece, Just the process of what have I achieved in the last 90 days.

Lee: 00:13:16

What have I achieved this month?

Lee: 00:13:17

What have I achieved this week?

Lee: 00:13:19

And they might be, if you seek the evidence to back up the question

Lee: 00:13:23

that you're asking, you might find that there are opportunities you've

Lee: 00:13:27

missed where that reward has come to you and you haven't quite picked up.

Lee: 00:13:31

It might be the thanks that the team received for job well done and then

Lee: 00:13:35

you reminding yourself, well, I lead that team and the team are in the

Lee: 00:13:38

shape that they're in because of how we all working towards this vision.

Lee: 00:13:42

If you remind yourself of the bigger picture and you've broken that down

Lee: 00:13:46

into the small steps, each small step, you could remind yourself

Lee: 00:13:50

we're one step closer to that.

Lee: 00:13:52

And that sounds really cheesy, one step closer to the big vision, but

Lee: 00:13:55

actually if you can evidence things in different ways it absolutely will

Lee: 00:14:00

show the progress that you're making.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:56

I guess for me, there's something as well about leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:59

who have maybe been in their leadership position for some time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:03

So maybe you've been in your role for, for a long time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:07

You've been in the same organization for a while.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:10

I think sometimes that can make it more challenging to motivate yourself because

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

you've kind of been, I don't wanna say stuck because there are leaders who've

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:19

been in positions for a really long time and are always highly motivated.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:23

But I think sometimes it can impact your motivation and, and energy

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:27

levels when you have been in the same place for a long time, because it can

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:31

sometimes be harder, I guess, to get a different perspective on things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:34

So if I think about my own personal experience of that, I've been in my

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

current role and organization for coming up to six years, which is

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:43

actually a really long time for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:45

I normally spend about two and a half, three years in a role, and then

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:49

I'm ready for the next challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:50

And I want to move on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:52

But actually the thing that's motivated me and kept me energized in, in this

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:56

organization is the amount of opportunity I've had to take on new things and

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

that challenge within the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:04

So I haven't had to look outside of the organization to find

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:08

that new challenge, to keep me energized and to keep me motivated.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:12

I have actually had the opportunities to take new things on, into my

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:16

portfolio as a leader, which has.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:18

Stretched me and given me personally development opportunities, I've been

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:23

able to get involved in different pieces of work and programs that perhaps I

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:27

normally wouldn't have been able to in, in previous roles that I've been in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:31

So for me, I think that's, what's kept me motivated and energized even though

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:36

like personally for me, I've been in that place for, for what feels like quite a

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:39

long time given my kind career history.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:42

So I'm just interested to hear from you there about, you know, what are your

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:46

thoughts around how you re-energize and remotivate yourself if you've been in

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:50

the same position for quite some time?

Lee: 00:16:52

For me, it's all about exploring and recognizing the root

Lee: 00:16:57

of the feelings that you have.

Lee: 00:16:59

So yes, there are gonna be mundane jobs that we all have to do, which can be

Lee: 00:17:05

really uninspiring and demotivating.

Lee: 00:17:09

And I know certainly, there are things that you have to do every

Lee: 00:17:11

year you're like, oh my God, we've gotta do this thing again.

Lee: 00:17:14

We've gotta do this report or that event, or I've gotta promote the same thing.

Lee: 00:17:17

And it just feels like a groundhog situation, but that's life,

Lee: 00:17:21

you just have to deal with it.

Lee: 00:17:23

Then there's the bit around recognizing your own body and yourself.

Lee: 00:17:29

And I know my energy and my motivation wanes at different parts of the month,

Lee: 00:17:36

for example, linked to my cycle.

Lee: 00:17:37

And I've got absolutely no motivation to get dressed far less thinking

Lee: 00:17:42

about motivating other people.

Lee: 00:17:44

So I know that, and I plan for that, I reduce my FaceTime and my

Lee: 00:17:48

meetings with other people, and I know it's a phase and soon enough

Lee: 00:17:52

that energy's gonna shift again.

Lee: 00:17:53

And then the kind of third element I always think about is this a motivational

Lee: 00:17:57

issue or is this an ability issue?

Lee: 00:17:59

So is this something that if all the barriers were removed,

Lee: 00:18:04

would I do something different?

Lee: 00:18:07

And if I would still do it, then I know it's not a motivational issue,

Lee: 00:18:13

but if all the barriers were removed and I still wouldn't take that action,

Lee: 00:18:15

I know that it's a motivational issue.

Lee: 00:18:17

If that makes sense?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:18

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting take on, on looking at things,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:21

actually motivation versus ability.

Lee: 00:18:24

And I think the difference is the sum of all those feelings and how

Lee: 00:18:28

long that, that carries on cuz you are always gonna have ebbs and flows of how

Lee: 00:18:31

motivated that you feel across all those three reasons, whether it's elements

Lee: 00:18:36

of the job you don't like, whether it's your body and tiredness and fatigue,

Lee: 00:18:40

or just the cyclical way of things work or that ability versus motivation.

Lee: 00:18:46

But if that feeling drags on, or perhaps you're noticing that you're feeling

Lee: 00:18:53

super energized and motivated outside of work, but when you are in work, you

Lee: 00:18:57

just can't summon up no matter what and nothing that you do is shifting it.

Lee: 00:19:02

Then I think you've got big questions to ask yourself.

Lee: 00:19:05

For me, motivation is how much do you want something?

Lee: 00:19:09

How much do you want that job?

Lee: 00:19:11

How much do you want to finish that project?

Lee: 00:19:13

And so those are the types of questions that you need to start asking yourself

Lee: 00:19:17

if you are in that position of, wow, I've been here for a long time and

Lee: 00:19:21

I just can't get my stuff going.

Lee: 00:19:24

And personally, I got to that point in my corporate career

Lee: 00:19:28

where I was feeling burnt out.

Lee: 00:19:30

It felt never ending, same conversations and the same actions when I was at work.

Lee: 00:19:36

And then I had this really long commute that led to a really unhealthy

Lee: 00:19:41

lifestyle, which was impacting on my energy outside of work.

Lee: 00:19:44

So I had both areas combining and there wasn't enough of a bigger picture

Lee: 00:19:51

motivation for me to keep going.

Lee: 00:19:53

And it got to a point where I knew I was doing a disservice to other people,

Lee: 00:19:58

to my teams, and more importantly to the people that we were serving

Lee: 00:20:01

in my organization, but I knew the only option for me was to walk away.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:06

And I think that's a really high level of insight, isn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:09

it, to have in terms of where you are at in that particular role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:13

I think kudos to you for having that level of insight for doing that reflection

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:17

piece, because I think you do come across people who probably in the backs of their

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:22

mind do know that that is where they're at, but they will just keep plodding

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:26

on and plodding on for all different, motivations, ironically, for them to keep

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

doing that, you need to pay my mortgage.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:32

Don't gonna be good enough to get another job somewhere else.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

Don't know what I want to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:36

But I think it is really powerful and really insightful for you to share

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:40

your, your own personal experience and

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:42

journey around that, which I know you've done previously as well, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

I think it helps people to do that reflection piece for themselves and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:49

really start to think about am I doing something that matters and motivates me?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

And I think the selfless part of what you've described is the bit

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:56

around saying but I was not only doing a disservice to myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:59

I was doing a disservice to other people because actually people weren't

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:03

getting the best version of me leader.

Lee: 00:21:05

I go back to my, bigger picture why, the reason that I was working in

Lee: 00:21:09

and doing the job I did, because I was absolutely passionate about improving you

Lee: 00:21:12

People's lives in a really cheesy way.

Lee: 00:21:16

But that was really important to me and I, felt that my team had a really

Lee: 00:21:19

important role to get the user's voices heard to make sure that they were

Lee: 00:21:25

involved in stuff that was happening in the organization and all that.

Lee: 00:21:28

So if I looked at it in, in a broad way, there should have been

Lee: 00:21:32

enough motivation in the bigger picture for me to keep going.

Lee: 00:21:36

But there just wasn't because I was ground down with all those

Lee: 00:21:40

little things that were adding up for me and it just didn't feel like

Lee: 00:21:45

I would ever get the balance right to, to feel like I was achieving

Lee: 00:21:49

that bigger picture that I wanted.

Lee: 00:21:51

And so I knew I had to step away and find it a different way.

Lee: 00:21:54

Doesn't mean my, bigger pictures changed, I'm tackling

Lee: 00:21:57

it from a different direction.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:58

And I think that's really interesting as well to

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:00

to think about it that way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:01

And it's something we say probably nearly every episode how take the lead

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

around knowing your, why what's your purpose, knowing that bigger picture is a

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:10

really important part of being a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:12

So I think you've hugely demonstrated that in your experience

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:15

in your journey so far Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:17

So you mentioned the ebbs and flows of your working life as a leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:21

and the fact that you are gonna have bits of your job, that don't always

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:24

set you on fire, and they're not the things that you enjoy doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:28

I think also as a leader you might find yourself in a position where you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:32

leading your team or your organization through potentially a really difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:36

time potentially a difficult time that's not gonna be over very quickly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:42

It might be some sort of crisis situation I guess the pandemic has been a really

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:46

good example of people having to lead through a really challenging and

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:50

kind of longstanding, period of time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

and I guess in those times it can be really hard to find your joy

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:56

and your motivation in what you do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:58

So have you got any tips for people around how they can approach

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:02

being in that sort of space?

Lee: 00:23:04

Well, my only caveat would be, unless you are a person where

Lee: 00:23:08

challenge is super motivating, in which case you'd be thriving in that

Lee: 00:23:11

situation you've just described.

Lee: 00:23:13

I don't think you can put motivation perhaps in a single box because it does

Lee: 00:23:17

mean something different to everyone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:20

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

And right back to that working out, what motivates you and how you get motivated

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

is a really important part of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:27

And I always think about that when I think about communicators and

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:31

my profession, there's always bits of it that I don't find motivating,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

but yet that the bits that I don't like doing, there's always someone

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

in your team that loves doing them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

And for me, it's the media stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:42

It's not my bag.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:43

I don't thrive on the challenge of uh, media inquiries and

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:46

dealing with journalists.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:47

I can do it, but it's not what brings me joy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:50

It's not what motivates me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:51

I have know people who like, that's their total gives them such

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:55

a buzz and does motivate them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:57

So you are absolutely right.

Lee: 00:23:59

And to slightly go off, topic, but it links to, to the previous points we

Lee: 00:24:02

were discussing from a leadership point of view, knowing your strengths and

Lee: 00:24:08

the types of situations in which you lead is really beneficial and there

Lee: 00:24:12

are life cycles of organizations.

Lee: 00:24:14

So there will be times when, there might be a new and emerging organization.

Lee: 00:24:18

It might be a challenging organization.

Lee: 00:24:20

It might be organization in growth.

Lee: 00:24:22

You might need someone that's the rah-rah cheerleader.

Lee: 00:24:25

You might need someone who comes in is really focused on turnaround and as a

Lee: 00:24:29

leader you, you need to match yourself to those types of organizations that are in

Lee: 00:24:33

the right life cycle for your leadership, strengths and skills that you bring.

Lee: 00:24:38

And I do think that that is linked to motivation.

Lee: 00:24:40

So if someone who just doesn't thrive in a difficult and challenging

Lee: 00:24:46

environment, and it's a pretty consistent firefighting type job, then that's

Lee: 00:24:51

maybe the opportunity that you step away and you go to somewhere where you

Lee: 00:24:54

can be the cheerleader or vice versa.

Lee: 00:24:57

I didn't actually answer your question though.

Lee: 00:24:58

I'm sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:59

You didn't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:59

You were being very political about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:00

You're like a politician there away from the question.

Lee: 00:25:05

I have got a good answer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:07

Come on, then sock it to us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:08

What is the answer to the question Lee?

Lee: 00:25:10

Well, I think if you are in that position where, so I'm

Lee: 00:25:14

gonna reword your question.

Lee: 00:25:15

So rather than when you are in a challenging time, because we've

Lee: 00:25:18

established, that might mean you thrive.

Lee: 00:25:21

But I think if you are in a position where you're doing something, that is

Lee: 00:25:23

the opposite of what motivates you, then that can be what's super hard.

Lee: 00:25:29

But if I flip back to a previous point that for 80% of the time you're doing

Lee: 00:25:33

I dunno, whatever your percentage that you think is a good percentage,

Lee: 00:25:37

you're not gonna have a hundred percent job where you feel fully motivated.

Lee: 00:25:40

You're in, you know, you're off in Disney if that's if that's what you think.

Lee: 00:25:45

When I've had really say tricky and sensitive issues to deal with, for me,

Lee: 00:25:50

that perhaps felt hard to deal with.

Lee: 00:25:53

And I was thinking, oh, this is the last thing I want to handle at the moment.

Lee: 00:25:58

I can't lean into the things that I really, really like.

Lee: 00:26:01

What I've had to do is go back to remember my why.

Lee: 00:26:05

Remind myself it's only for a time and then find different

Lee: 00:26:10

ways to replenish my reserves.

Lee: 00:26:12

So.

Lee: 00:26:13

It might be, I had to make best use of my network call in for people who

Lee: 00:26:18

perhaps could make me laugh and bring a bit of like relief when it's a really

Lee: 00:26:21

difficult day or people who can gimme a bit of counsel and a different viewpoint

Lee: 00:26:27

or someone that I can just offload and talk about what a twat so and so was.

Lee: 00:26:33

When I was at home, it was about making sure that I'm doing nice things,

Lee: 00:26:37

eating nice things, switching off.

Lee: 00:26:41

I had to try and find motivation in different ways, but absolutely

Lee: 00:26:45

link back to everything's only for a time . So that was, key to me.

Lee: 00:26:51

And

Lee: 00:26:51

I think the other motivator for me always is as a, as a completer

Lee: 00:26:56

finisher is remembering the end point.

Lee: 00:26:58

So what's the difference gonna be?

Lee: 00:27:01

Or what's it gonna mean if I finish X or what will it mean once we get through Y?

Lee: 00:27:09

And those were questions that I would ask myself along the way to just

Lee: 00:27:14

chunk it up and not feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:17

I love that it's only for a time, I think is a really good way to

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

think about that when you are faced with those, maybe like you say, the things

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:25

that maybe challenge your motivation More than, than you'd perhaps like, or expect.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:30

I have to say I was slightly distracted through the answer to your question

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:34

there, Lee cuz in the back of my head, I was thinking, I wonder how motivated

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:38

Mickey mouse is and whether he has periods of time, where he just can't

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:42

find the motivation to be totally Mickey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:44

I'm also very pleased that you shared some of what motivates you and how you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:48

managed to find a way through those

Lee: 00:27:50

You mean you're pleased I actually answered the question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:54

so I think it leads us on to that point in the episode, which we

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

do every every episode are just around sharing some quick how tos, which are

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:02

a bit of a summary of some of our top tips and things that we've talked about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:06

So, Lee top tip and a how to, or more than one, if you want

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:09

around, how you can think about and stay motivated as a leader.

Lee: 00:28:14

Going Back to your bigger picture why so making sure you're always

Lee: 00:28:17

doing that check in and reflection is, is a really important one.

Lee: 00:28:20

And I think that piece for me about is it a motivational or an ability issue

Lee: 00:28:26

that, that you are struggling with and trying to get to the root cause?

Lee: 00:28:30

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

And I think, both of those will be helpful in the bit for me, which is around.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:34

Do you actually really understand what it is that motivates you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:38

Um, Seeking that clarity, I guess, on what brings you motivation and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:42

what can help to energize you, I think is, is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:46

And I would add in a top tip, having listened to what you've said, Lee,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:49

about just considering the impact on others and just recognizing that

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:53

what motivates you might not always be what motivates everybody else.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:57

And we are, are obviously talking about this as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

So you do have to recognize that impact and think about how you

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:03

strike that balance for other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:05

So, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:06

yeah.

Lee: 00:29:07

You're gonna be going off and do your love language test

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:09

My love language test.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:10

Well, I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:11

I'm intrigued to know what it is, but I'm also partly fearful in case my love

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:15

language is something that, yeah, I dunno.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

What's gonna happen next episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:19

Will I, or will I not still be engaged?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:21

That's the question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:23

If I'm not you'll know, I've done my love language test and it went badly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:30

I'm not sure how motivated I feel to take the test.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:32

I feel just slightly scared about it, Lee, but, yeah, interested to hear from others

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:37

if they know what their love language is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:40

brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:41

Thank you so much as always for listening to this episode and look forward