Our biggest leadership lessons
In this episode of How to Take the Lead, we wanted to share some of our learning from our careers to date so you get the chance to find out a little more about us and our leadership lessons.
We share our individual experiences and some of our shared learning, including:
- 02:15 – being open to new opportunities without compromising your boundaries
- 04:56 - making the right impact in a new job
- 17:10 - support networks and developing yourself
- 21:07 – realising you don’t have to be like all the other leaders you see
Our takeaways from this episode will help you to reflect on your own career to date, thinking about the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of your experiences of leadership and how you can adapt and nurture your leadership style for the future.
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You can find out more about Lee Griffith via www.sundayskies.com and about Carrie-Ann Wade at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk
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In the next episode we are going to be focused on emotional intelligence, what it is and how to consider it when you are building your leadership team. Until then, get out there and take the lead.
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Before anybody thinks Lee's trying to say that
Carrie-Ann Wade:I just recruit any old body willy nilly into my team - yeah
Carrie-Ann Wade:you seem nice, come on in!
Lee Griffith:You're listening to How To Take The Lead with Lee
Lee Griffith:Griffith
Carrie-Ann Wade:and Carrie-Ann Wade
Lee Griffith:Two corporate colleagues turned business
Lee Griffith:besties who question everything we've ever learned about
Lee Griffith:leadership.
Carrie-Ann Wade:What started with us putting the world to
Carrie-Ann Wade:rights over a gin after work is now a weekly show, challenging
Carrie-Ann Wade:the myths and perceptions and exploring what leadership looks
Carrie-Ann Wade:like in the modern day.
Lee Griffith:We'll also be sharing our experiences and
Lee Griffith:stories along the way.
Carrie-Ann Wade:You can find our show notes at
Carrie-Ann Wade:howtotakethelead.com
Carrie-Ann Wade:to episode three of our podcast series.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Lee, it's lovely to see you.
Lee Griffith:Lovely to see you too. It's been too long.
Carrie-Ann Wade:It's been a while how are you? What have you
Carrie-Ann Wade:been up to since the last episode?
Lee Griffith:It's basically been eat, drink, sleep, take the
Lee Griffith:dog out for a poo. On cycle.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Take the dog out for a poo - I love it. On
Carrie-Ann Wade:repeat.
Lee Griffith:Basically. I hope your life's had a bit more
Lee Griffith:meaning and purpose to it.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I did I think eat sleep repeat. Definitely.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I'd like to get I'd like to get a bit more nice rested sleep
Carrie-Ann Wade:which just doesn't happen for me but that's just how it is. And
Carrie-Ann Wade:I'd like the sun to come back out. Last time we were last time
Carrie-Ann Wade:we were chatting it was a nice sunny, sunny day and now today
Carrie-Ann Wade:I've got rain and I feel cold and chilly and back to autumnal
Carrie-Ann Wade:vibes. So roll on some proper summer. That's what I say.
Lee Griffith:I've got a comfies on, yes, absolutely.
Carrie-Ann Wade:So we thought you might like to find out a
Carrie-Ann Wade:little bit more about us and our leadership journeys. So we
Carrie-Ann Wade:thought we'd share some of our leadership lessons in case
Carrie-Ann Wade:you've got to episode three and you were thinking what did this
Carrie-Ann Wade:pair know about leading anything? We thought it might be
Carrie-Ann Wade:helpful to share some of some of our leadership lessons that
Carrie-Ann Wade:we've encountered through our own journeys so I'll get to it,
Carrie-Ann Wade:if you're happy for me to jump straight in and share one of my
Carrie-Ann Wade:mine Lee. I would definitely say refelcting on my kind of
Carrie-Ann Wade:leadership journey, there's definitely been something to me
Carrie-Ann Wade:about trying to step up into the space before you've got that
Carrie-Ann Wade:actual job that you're going for. Quite often in my
Carrie-Ann Wade:leadership journey, it has been about getting that promotion,
Carrie-Ann Wade:stepping up into the next senior role. And I think for me, one of
Carrie-Ann Wade:my learnings definitely been about how do you step into and
Carrie-Ann Wade:act into that space before you've got the job? I think for
Carrie-Ann Wade:me almost trying to demonstrate that I'm capable and ready for
Carrie-Ann Wade:that next step. So I've always offered to take on things that
Carrie-Ann Wade:maybe support my development, stretch me a bit outside of the
Carrie-Ann Wade:current role that I've been in. And that's been something I've
Carrie-Ann Wade:always been keen to do. Although I will put a word of warning on
Carrie-Ann Wade:that one, don't do it too much otherwise, basically, you just
Carrie-Ann Wade:end up doing two jobs for the price of one. So that would be
Carrie-Ann Wade:my caveat on that one. But definitely for me there's been
Carrie-Ann Wade:something about trying to identify those opportunities and
Carrie-Ann Wade:kind of stepping into that space for sure.
Lee Griffith:It's a bit like doing a power pose, isn't it?
Lee Griffith:Like yeah, when they when they say do the power pose and it
Lee Griffith:will make you feel comfortable and confident? Yeah, it's like
Lee Griffith:taking the action. So you can almost picture yourself in that
Lee Griffith:role. If you start doing the actions of that role.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Yeah, absolutely. Definitely something
Carrie-Ann Wade:about that confidence building. And I guess a little opportunity
Carrie-Ann Wade:to test out whether it is something you do really want to
Carrie-Ann Wade:do. Because there might be times when you aspire to certain
Carrie-Ann Wade:things in your career that actually when the reality hits
Carrie-Ann Wade:and you're like this is not what I thought it was gonna be like
Carrie-Ann Wade:at all.
Lee Griffith:Totally. I mean, I was like that with managing
Lee Griffith:people. I always thought I'd be so much easier if I was just in
Lee Griffith:charge. And then I got in charge I was I really don't like this.
Carrie-Ann Wade:It's not for me, I'm not enjoying this at
Carrie-Ann Wade:all.
Lee Griffith:So try it before you buy it.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Try before you buy it. And I think there's
Carrie-Ann Wade:something about sort of research and as well what people who are
Carrie-Ann Wade:recruiting into these positions that you're aspiring to step
Carrie-Ann Wade:into, really might be looking for, say, for example, in some
Carrie-Ann Wade:of my earlier roles, and I think it's less like this now
Carrie-Ann Wade:actually, but in some of my earlier roles, it was definitely
Carrie-Ann Wade:this professional development need, you might need to have
Carrie-Ann Wade:certain qualifications or certain things, sort of as part
Carrie-Ann Wade:of your development journey. So for me, it was about early doors
Carrie-Ann Wade:research in some of those and then investing in in my own
Carrie-Ann Wade:development to be able to demonstrate that I was sort of
Carrie-Ann Wade:taking that seriously and that I do want to develop myself. So
Carrie-Ann Wade:yeah, that was that was just for me the first thing that sprang
Carrie-Ann Wade:to mind as an early part of my my leadership life or journey to
Carrie-Ann Wade:becoming a leader.
Lee Griffith:I love that. So one of my learnings is almost
Lee Griffith:looking at it from the other way. So you've you've got that
Lee Griffith:job that you've aspired to and when you step into that
Lee Griffith:position, potentially in a new organisation, one of my biggest
Lee Griffith:bits of learning was how you enter that well, and you make
Lee Griffith:sure you're making the right impact. So I think when I moved
Lee Griffith:into one of my first senior leadership positions, I thought
Lee Griffith:that they expected me to come in and transform and turn
Lee Griffith:everything around, which was the brief they gave me. And I
Lee Griffith:thought that meant they were really unhappy with a few that
Lee Griffith:had been before so I played to that a bit. And I didn't really
Lee Griffith:think about actually the thoughts and feelings of people
Lee Griffith:who've been there before. And I didn't really need to show that
Lee Griffith:I was better than everyone else. Someone sat me down it was my
Lee Griffith:line manager at the time, who said look, you know, you're
Lee Griffith:doing a great job. But just remember that this person before
Lee Griffith:spent six months working on this project and you coming in saying
Lee Griffith:you know everything needs to change isn't really going to get
Lee Griffith:on very well with them. So you know, just just be a bit more
Lee Griffith:considerate of other people and it was the first time I'd
Lee Griffith:actually I thought oh shit you know, I hadn't really thought
Lee Griffith:that people would react in that way. I thought they were
Lee Griffith:expecting me to come in and do the big bang. And there is a way
Lee Griffith:that you can enter an organisation that still makes a
Lee Griffith:big bang, but without disrupting and upsetting people.
Carrie-Ann Wade:And I think that can be a sort of easy thing
Carrie-Ann Wade:to do. Because you're always so focused on you and how you want
Carrie-Ann Wade:to land in the organisation and the fact you've got that next
Carrie-Ann Wade:big job and that big task ahead of you that it can be quite
Carrie-Ann Wade:easy, I think to be so focused on that, then you almost fo
Carrie-Ann Wade:forget a little bit that there are other people who are going
Carrie-Ann Wade:to be impacted by the fact that there's a new new leader or a
Carrie-Ann Wade:new person kind of running the show.
Lee Griffith:Yeah, so it's a really sombring moment for me,
Lee Griffith:and it was one that you know, over a decade, plus years on, I
Lee Griffith:still think about that moment and is definitely carved and
Lee Griffith:changed the way that I approach when I'm starting new
Lee Griffith:relationships. And actually, the work I do now, as well is
Lee Griffith:helping people to enter into their new jobs in a way that
Lee Griffith:makes the right impact because I completely recognise that
Lee Griffith:perhaps I didn't in every aspect.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you
Carrie-Ann Wade:should say about like things that stick with you that people
Carrie-Ann Wade:feed back to you because quite often it can be those moments of
Carrie-Ann Wade:feedback or a comment that somebody makes that maybe sticks
Carrie-Ann Wade:with you in terms of kind of how you progress forward and how you
Carrie-Ann Wade:move forward. And definitely for me, there's been something
Carrie-Ann Wade:about, it's kind of linked to my first learning, more around kind
Carrie-Ann Wade:of saying yes to opportunities more and identifying
Carrie-Ann Wade:opportunities that might broaden your horizons give you that
Carrie-Ann Wade:development, chance that you might not have and I I remember
Carrie-Ann Wade:being a bit of a moaner actually, I was being a moaning
Carrie-Ann Wade:mini about like, I always come to this meeting and all they
Carrie-Ann Wade:talk about is one specific topic, one specific part of the
Carrie-Ann Wade:industry that I work within and I was like it really gets my
Carrie-Ann Wade:goat, like, I would get really frustrated by it because
Carrie-Ann Wade:shouldn't there be much broader opportunities to talk about
Carrie-Ann Wade:other stuff. And I just remember the person said to me if you
Carrie-Ann Wade:don't like it, you know what you can do, do something about it.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Like, oh right, yeah, okay. It's probably not the best thing to
Carrie-Ann Wade:just be moaning without taking action. And that led to me,
Carrie-Ann Wade:putting myself forward for something, stepping out of my
Carrie-Ann Wade:comfort zone being the chair of a national network, which would
Carrie-Ann Wade:never have come about really if somebody hadn't challenged me to
Carrie-Ann Wade:go it's almost like if you want to see a difference you have to
Carrie-Ann Wade:be the difference. Just be don't just be sat at the back moaning
Carrie-Ann Wade:and throwing the rotten tomatoes but actually step up and make
Carrie-Ann Wade:that difference. That kind of comment always sticks with me
Carrie-Ann Wade:and I always think that now, if there's stuff that I am feeling
Carrie-Ann Wade:a bit uncomfortable with, or doesn't feel right or it's not
Carrie-Ann Wade:hitting the mark, for me, actually, what's my
Carrie-Ann Wade:responsibility in that particularly as a leader to take
Carrie-Ann Wade:some actions and maybe try to exert some positive change? So
Carrie-Ann Wade:yeah, that was quite interesting.
Lee Griffith:It links quite closely with a lot of stuff we
Lee Griffith:have talked about in the past about integrity, and integrity
Lee Griffith:being everything and absolutely, that means taking action against
Lee Griffith:stuff that you hold strong beliefs or views. Also it means
Lee Griffith:it's one of my kind of biggest learnings is that it can also
Lee Griffith:not just mean say yes, but say no to stuff. And sometimes it
Lee Griffith:might be about going against what you've been told to do by
Lee Griffith:someone but it can be really hard when you're, maybe it's
Lee Griffith:someone more senior than you that's giving you direction to
Lee Griffith:do something, but it goes against what you believe or your
Lee Griffith:values or whatever. And I think it's a real character building
Lee Griffith:moment when you first come up against that type of situation.
Lee Griffith:Where you're like, right? I could technically take the
Lee Griffith:action that they wish but it just doesn't sit right with me
Lee Griffith:and you have to start thinking through what are the
Lee Griffith:consequences if I don't take this action or stand up for
Lee Griffith:myself in this moment? And work out if it's worth it and all of
Lee Griffith:those types of things and it can and it can feel really, really
Lee Griffith:big thing. Often, it's probably not, in the grand scheme but it
Lee Griffith:can tend to be one of those first moments of conflict that
Lee Griffith:you reach.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot and
Carrie-Ann Wade:say like, can you remember or how did it feel that kind of
Carrie-Ann Wade:first time or first few times where you felt that you had to
Carrie-Ann Wade:say no or say the opposite of maybe what else has been said?
Lee Griffith:I mean, I can remember a couple of times where
Lee Griffith:I took the action. So I sat up and I think probably it was a
Lee Griffith:feeling of almost thinking that they made me more hardened. When
Lee Griffith:it came up again, I think links back to one of our previous
Lee Griffith:episodes from talking about being comfortable in ourselves
Lee Griffith:when I started to, I suppose when I realised there was a
Lee Griffith:disconnect between behaviours and attitudes and people and my
Lee Griffith:values and I decided that I was going to lead like myself. I
Lee Griffith:can't just start stopped giving a flying, whatever. You know, I
Lee Griffith:can remember actually having quite an argument with my chief
Lee Griffith:exec at the time because they wanted me to do something. It
Lee Griffith:was really against what I was right. And I and the buzz I felt
Lee Griffith:afterwards for standing up for myself and standing up to them
Lee Griffith:definitely outweighed the feelings that I felt when I took
Lee Griffith:actions before but might have been a bit more people pleasing,
Lee Griffith:if that makes sense.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Yeah, I think the people pleasing thing is
Carrie-Ann Wade:really interesting because I'm naturally a people pleaser. I'm
Carrie-Ann Wade:fairly conflict avoid I would say and it's taken me a long
Carrie-Ann Wade:time in my career, to think that it's okay to set some boundaries
Carrie-Ann Wade:because I guess fundamentally, what you're talking about is
Carrie-Ann Wade:being clear with your boundaries, doing some of that
Carrie-Ann Wade:boundary setting and that was probably language that I didn't
Carrie-Ann Wade:really hear until I was further on in my career. So probably
Carrie-Ann Wade:early doors, I wouldn't have thought about setting a boundary
Carrie-Ann Wade:in the workplace about anything. I probably just linked to my
Carrie-Ann Wade:first learning point about saying yes more maybe saying yes
Carrie-Ann Wade:a bit too much because it is like doing that people pleaseing
Carrie-Ann Wade:think. It hasn't been until a bit later into my career and
Carrie-Ann Wade:working life that I really had conversations about boundary
Carrie-Ann Wade:setting and being clear with expectations and it being ok to
Carrie-Ann Wade:say no about things. I think that can be a bit of an eye
Carrie-Ann Wade:opener and a bit enlightening to go actually, it's alright to say
Carrie-Ann Wade:no I don't have capacity or no that's not a priority. It took a
Carrie-Ann Wade:while for me to realise that was ok.
Lee Griffith:And do you think that that is linked to rising up
Lee Griffith:the ranks and your seniority felt like you gave more
Lee Griffith:permission to yourself to say no to stuff because that will show
Lee Griffith:leadership? Do you think if you had stayed you would have been
Lee Griffith:in the same place in terms of that learning experience?
Carrie-Ann Wade:I think possibly, yeah, I think from a
Carrie-Ann Wade:leadership because you're more responsible for other people's
Carrie-Ann Wade:activity and what they're doing at work as well and you feel the
Carrie-Ann Wade:need maybe to be a bit more protective of your teams time or
Carrie-Ann Wade:your organisation's time in terms of making them focus on
Carrie-Ann Wade:the right things. So I think that boundary setting and that
Carrie-Ann Wade:ability to say no becomes a bit more prominent in your working
Carrie-Ann Wade:life. Although I think some of it maybe comes a bit with age as
Carrie-Ann Wade:well and just becoming more confident in yourself as an
Carrie-Ann Wade:individual. I guess quite a lot of these lessons we're talking
Carrie-Ann Wade:about in terms of life as a leader, but I guess some of them
Carrie-Ann Wade:are equally as transferable into your personal life and how you
Carrie-Ann Wade:choose to operate as a person. So I think, I think probably a
Carrie-Ann Wade:mixture both, of the seniority and rising through and the
Carrie-Ann Wade:confidence as a person to say actually, that's not for me, or
Carrie-Ann Wade:I don't actually need to do that, there's a better way and
Carrie-Ann Wade:feeling confident to have those conversations.
Lee Griffith:So what would you go back to, you know, if you're
Lee Griffith:going to speak to the young Carrie-Ann when you were first
Lee Griffith:entering the workplace, what would you be saying to her?
Carrie-Ann Wade:I think I would be saying stop being such a
Carrie-Ann Wade:people pleaser. It's easy to say now in hindsight, isn't it and
Carrie-Ann Wade:when it's part of your natural make up to be a people pleaser,
Carrie-Ann Wade:but actually, to say, I think I would be saying something like
Carrie-Ann Wade:people don't expect you to say yes, all the time. I think
Carrie-Ann Wade:people actually expect in the workplace a bit of healthy
Carrie-Ann Wade:challenge if it gets you to a positive outcome. I don't think
Carrie-Ann Wade:people necessarily always want a yes person.
Lee Griffith:I think people do strangely respect you more if
Lee Griffith:you do put your boundaries in place and say no to things.
Lee Griffith:Obviously, as we said before, if things are overplayed they can
Lee Griffith:become a weakness you need to make sure you don't become the
Lee Griffith:Debbie Downer that's always saying no, but if you've got a
Lee Griffith:logic and a reason and a rationale of why you're saying
Lee Griffith:no to something or sticking to that boundary or protecting
Lee Griffith:space or whatever it might be. I think people respect you more
Lee Griffith:and probably will be more likely to follow your lead
Carrie-Ann Wade:Absolutely and I think there is something about
Carrie-Ann Wade:demonstrating respect for yourself as well in doing that.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I think that respec is's a good thing. It's a good thing to be
Lee Griffith:Are you are an established or aspiring CEO
Lee Griffith:thinking about.
Lee Griffith:looking to maximise your impact in the workplace? At Sunday
Lee Griffith:Skies I help you get clear on your big vision, create a
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Lee Griffith:it. No matter where you are in your CEO journey, through my
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Carrie-Ann Wade:If you're enjoying this episode of How To
Carrie-Ann Wade:Take The Lead please hit subscribe and why not leave a
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Carrie-Ann Wade:how to take the lead.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I think for me one of the things around boundary seting and
Carrie-Ann Wade:understanding more about what your personality type is and how
Carrie-Ann Wade:that might impact you in the workplace has definitely having
Carrie-Ann Wade:additional support and people around me that build that
Carrie-Ann Wade:network. So that would definitely be one of my
Carrie-Ann Wade:leadership lessons is to build and invest in having people
Carrie-Ann Wade:around, don't think you have to do it all alone, have people
Carrie-Ann Wade:around you to support you. And that might be you know, it's
Carrie-Ann Wade:been a mixture of things for me informal mentors, sort of
Carrie-Ann Wade:coaches, some of those people probably don't even know that
Carrie-Ann Wade:that's the role they carry out for me. I recall saying to
Carrie-Ann Wade:somebody before I absolutely consider you like really
Carrie-Ann Wade:informal mentor. They said oh, I'm really flattered and a bit
Carrie-Ann Wade:surprised because I don't think they'd realised that was kind of
Carrie-Ann Wade:the role that I'd put them in in terms of my sort of circle and
Carrie-Ann Wade:my network really. But you know, some of it might be more
Carrie-Ann Wade:formal. So taking on a formal coach or a formal mentor to
Carrie-Ann Wade:support you. And I think often in your role as a leader, you
Carrie-Ann Wade:become somebody who coaches and mentors other people because of
Carrie-Ann Wade:your leadership role, but I think it's really important to
Carrie-Ann Wade:reflect on and make that time to make sure you've got that in
Carrie-Ann Wade:your, for you as well in terms of your own development. So and
Carrie-Ann Wade:my learning has been don't be afraid to ask so I've been lucky
Carrie-Ann Wade:enough to be in a position where I've been able to afford to pay
Carrie-Ann Wade:for my own coach in the past few years in terms of my own
Carrie-Ann Wade:development but actually I had an appraisal in my workplace and
Carrie-Ann Wade:kind of put that in the mix to say you know, I have been
Carrie-Ann Wade:investing in myself and my boss was like, oh, I don't know why
Carrie-Ann Wade:you haven't said anything like we should be investing in that
Carrie-Ann Wade:for you basically then had a conversation about whether or
Carrie-Ann Wade:not my work could support some of my coaching and so I think
Carrie-Ann Wade:there was some lessons as well about it's really important that
Carrie-Ann Wade:you focus and invest in your own professional development as a
Carrie-Ann Wade:leader but equally your organisation probably needs to
Carrie-Ann Wade:as well.
Lee Griffith:And I feel really strongly about that whole thing
Lee Griffith:around developing yourself. Because I think that if you
Lee Griffith:don't you become irrelevant. And you you become out of touch and
Lee Griffith:out of date. Just maintaining the status quo means you're
Lee Griffith:heading backwards. So there's a lot of cliches. But there is and
Lee Griffith:I think that people can feel guilty for investing time in
Lee Griffith:themselves in their personal development or their
Lee Griffith:professional development. And I've been fortunate I've been
Lee Griffith:given that time and space in in my career. I've always
Lee Griffith:encouraged that of my teams because I can see it's really
Lee Griffith:important. But even now I still get people coming to me as one
Lee Griffith:to one clients and they'll go oh, you know, I need to try and
Lee Griffith:fit this in around work or I need to do it in my spare time.
Lee Griffith:I'm like no, this is part of your work. If you're developing
Lee Griffith:yourself, you're developing your skills, you're gonna give more
Lee Griffith:back to the organisation and you shouldn't feel like you need to
Lee Griffith:justify that if it's formal training or something, you know,
Lee Griffith:if it was part of HR policy, you're given time to do that in
Lee Griffith:the workplace. And that's the same should be for broader
Lee Griffith:development. Sorry soapbox.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Yeah. I think it's that permission thing,
Carrie-Ann Wade:isn't it around, you know, giving yourself permission and
Carrie-Ann Wade:us as leaders giving other people permission for that to
Carrie-Ann Wade:just be part of how they operate in the workplace but you
Carrie-Ann Wade:definitely touched on something happens a lot that people don't
Carrie-Ann Wade:think they have permission to do that development during during
Carrie-Ann Wade:work time that they have to do that all in their own time.
Carrie-Ann Wade:That's not to say, don't do that if that's what floats your boat
Carrie-Ann Wade:you want to do, but like you say, I think we should all
Carrie-Ann Wade:actually be encouraging people to do that development. As part
Carrie-Ann Wade:of their work in working hours.
Lee Griffith:One of my biggest learnings, and then they're
Lee Griffith:slightly inter related, so I'm gonna give you two learnings if
Lee Griffith:that's alright.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Two for the price of one, I'm loving it.
Lee Griffith:So my first one is this whole notion of you need to
Lee Griffith:be tough to be a manager or to show authority there needs to be
Lee Griffith:a toughness, and I crave to know I've shared if you've watched if
Lee Griffith:you've ever watched the Insta lives, you've heard me share
Lee Griffith:this story before but when I was coming up the ranks in
Lee Griffith:management I can vividly remember meeting where I slammed
Lee Griffith:my hand on the desk to make a point because I need to show us
Lee Griffith:really angry at something that people have done. And God is the
Lee Griffith:one and only time I've ever done it. It didn't feel...
Carrie-Ann Wade:I'm really glad you said that by the way.
Lee Griffith:It was like I need, I felt like I needed to do
Lee Griffith:something to show, to show my emotion and my feeling and show
Lee Griffith:I was really tough on that matter. Because that's what
Lee Griffith:other people in my organisation at the time would do to show
Lee Griffith:that they were really serious. And it just felt, I think
Lee Griffith:everyone looked at me going is she alright, what's going on. It
Lee Griffith:was completely out of character. You know, I was like, oh my god,
Lee Griffith:this is I've just become one. Again. It was one of those
Lee Griffith:moments that started to shake me, going this isn't the kind of
Lee Griffith:person I want to be and I realised that you don't have to
Lee Griffith:be. We talk that elbows out to and alpha female. And you know,
Lee Griffith:I lived that experience in my management career and you don't
Lee Griffith:need to do that to succeed. You definitely don't want to do that
Lee Griffith:if you're trying to connect with people and I think my second if
Lee Griffith:I can bridge carefully into my like second part of learning,
Lee Griffith:which is interrelated and where you and I perhaps have different
Lee Griffith:experiences is that I'm an introvert by nature, and I'm not
Lee Griffith:someone that likes to be all jazz hands about stuff. Not that
Lee Griffith:I'm saying that every extrovert is jazz handing all over the
Lee Griffith:place.
Carrie-Ann Wade:I am occasionally I have to confess.
Carrie-Ann Wade:But yeah, I do like the occasional jazz hand.
Lee Griffith:It's got it's time and it's place you know. I know
Lee Griffith:that I was told quite a lot about oh you need to be seen to
Lee Griffith:be speaking up more in meetings and you need to be louder and
Lee Griffith:blah, blah, blah. And it just felt you know, I just didn't
Lee Griffith:want to be one of those people that spoke for the sake of
Lee Griffith:speaking. I wanted my impact to come across but the people knew
Lee Griffith:when I spoke, I had something really value to add. And I
Lee Griffith:thought that was more impactful than just being seen speak on
Lee Griffith:every topic in every meeting, but I still hear people going.
Lee Griffith:I've told I'm too quiet or I need to speak up more in
Lee Griffith:meetings and I'm like, no, there is a different way that you can
Lee Griffith:make an impact.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Actually, like the point you make there is like
Carrie-Ann Wade:it takes a bit of everything to make the world go round, doesn't
Carrie-Ann Wade:it? So like for me, it's like you don't want to be in a room
Carrie-Ann Wade:full of people who are always going to have the same exactly
Carrie-Ann Wade:the same reaction or say and suggest exactly the same thing.
Carrie-Ann Wade:You need that diversity and breadth of different experience,
Carrie-Ann Wade:different skill sets to really deliver the best outcomes. I
Carrie-Ann Wade:personally think so. You know, like it might it might sometimes
Carrie-Ann Wade:take us a while to get to being comfortable and confident being
Carrie-Ann Wade:who we are in a room as a leader but actually it is really
Carrie-Ann Wade:important that we that we do operate in that way and with
Carrie-Ann Wade:that integrity, and I think that that kind of takes me on to one
Carrie-Ann Wade:of my learnings and I guess as a leader, you don't always end up
Carrie-Ann Wade:with the responsibility of building and developing a team
Carrie-Ann Wade:depending on kind of where you're at. But I think most of
Carrie-Ann Wade:the time is part of what you might need to do at some point
Carrie-Ann Wade:in your leadership journey. And it is just that me. I think I've
Carrie-Ann Wade:definitely learned through my career to build my teams based
Carrie-Ann Wade:on values and trust. And behaviours, more than being
Carrie-Ann Wade:based on kind of skill set, I think because for me, I feel
Carrie-Ann Wade:like you can teach people the skills but you can't always
Carrie-Ann Wade:teach people the attitude and on the behavioural stuff. And I've
Carrie-Ann Wade:been very lucky that different points in my career, people have
Carrie-Ann Wade:taken a chance on me and recruited me over others who may
Carrie-Ann Wade:perhaps have had in my perception more experience or
Carrie-Ann Wade:stronger skill set in a certain area. But obviously people have
Carrie-Ann Wade:seen something in me that they feel like will bring something
Carrie-Ann Wade:to the team and so I feel like it's my my job to kind of pay
Carrie-Ann Wade:that forward now. And I should always be looking out for some
Carrie-Ann Wade:of that untapped talent. And actually, you know, if you can
Carrie-Ann Wade:build a team of people who trust each other then the good
Carrie-Ann Wade:performance follows, and if you've got a team of people who
Carrie-Ann Wade:have the right values and behave in ways that are respectful of
Carrie-Ann Wade:each other. I don't know I feel like that sometimes can go a
Carrie-Ann Wade:longer way and go I just want five people who all know how to
Carrie-Ann Wade:do X, because actually I can I could teach three of these
Carrie-Ann Wade:people how to do X if they've got the right kind of value set
Carrie-Ann Wade:and behaviours, so I feel like that's potentially a whole other
Carrie-Ann Wade:episode but I feel like I have learned a lot about building
Carrie-Ann Wade:building teams based on how I've been recruited into teams but
Carrie-Ann Wade:also based on my own experiences. And I have had
Carrie-Ann Wade:those occasions where we've gone we really need a person who's
Carrie-Ann Wade:brilliant, why in the team and sometimes gone for the person in
Carrie-Ann Wade:a recruitment process that technically is the best at
Carrie-Ann Wade:delivering those skills. And sometimes your gut feel is like,
Carrie-Ann Wade:there's other stuff they're not demonstrating. I know we don't
Carrie-Ann Wade:like to call them soft skills, but maybe some of that, you
Carrie-Ann Wade:know, empathy or whatever you might want to be bringing into
Carrie-Ann Wade:your team in terms of the culture, and actually that can
Carrie-Ann Wade:sometimes make for a really difficult experience for the
Carrie-Ann Wade:team and the individual.
Lee Griffith:Yeah, there's a there's almost like an equation.
Lee Griffith:I wonder if someone might have actually written an equation
Lee Griffith:about this. There is that thing isn't there of skills and
Lee Griffith:expertise plus or divided by empathy and, and other other
Lee Griffith:kind of values led and all those other things that you need? So I
Lee Griffith:completely agree with you. And it really gets my goat when you
Lee Griffith:go through recruitment processes, particularly I work
Lee Griffith:mainly with very senior leaders. So when I see people who recruit
Lee Griffith:based on expertise solely, and you see that they overlook some
Lee Griffith:of those broader skills that they need at that level that
Lee Griffith:really really irritates me. On the flip side I do think when
Lee Griffith:you are recruiting you do need some kind of assurance that they
Lee Griffith:have skills and experience and something Yes, you can teach
Lee Griffith:them. But you can have really nice values led people who don't
Lee Griffith:want to learn anything.
Carrie-Ann Wade:And I just want to put a caveat on this
Carrie-Ann Wade:conversation that I just don't recruit anybody old body that I
Carrie-Ann Wade:think is really nice. Does that have to be a balance but I think
Carrie-Ann Wade:what I'm trying to say is you might miss out on a really
Carrie-Ann Wade:talented person that you develop into the role if you only went
Carrie-Ann Wade:based on the skill set before anybody thinks Lee's trying to
Carrie-Ann Wade:say that I just recruit any old body willy nilly into my team -
Carrie-Ann Wade:yeah you seem nice, come on in!
Lee Griffith:I was trying to subtly like take us there just
Lee Griffith:in case - jazz hands.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Yeah if you can do jazz hands you're in the
Carrie-Ann Wade:team. I absolutely do have a slightly more rigorous thought
Carrie-Ann Wade:processes behind my recruitment than that. But anyway, one thing
Carrie-Ann Wade:I really wanted to say that I think it's really important to
Carrie-Ann Wade:look to learn from other leaders. So you'll have leaders
Carrie-Ann Wade:whose styles and approaches and how they operate really resonate
Carrie-Ann Wade:with you and just don't be afraid to pluck the best bits
Carrie-Ann Wade:out of what you've experienced yourself and what you see other
Carrie-Ann Wade:leaders doing. So one thing that really sticks with me is just
Carrie-Ann Wade:been around doing appraisals, and I used to have a manager who
Carrie-Ann Wade:used to do your appraisal over a really nice lunch and you got to
Carrie-Ann Wade:pick the venue and get treated to lunch and then you spend a
Carrie-Ann Wade:couple of hours doing your appraisal and your objective
Carrie-Ann Wade:setting just taking you out of the office environment felt like
Carrie-Ann Wade:such a treat and a reward that that that stays with me.
Lee Griffith:It wasn't one of those sandwiches though, where
Lee Griffith:they'd like take you to a really nice venue. dump a whole load of
Lee Griffith:stuff on you and then you get a cocktail at the end.
Carrie-Ann Wade:A good bad good sandwich was upon a phase it
Carrie-Ann Wade:genuinely felt like a nice reward for doing a good job for
Carrie-Ann Wade:12 months. So I'm not sure what would happen then if you had
Carrie-Ann Wade:somebody have done a really bad job. We're gonna have a rubbish
Carrie-Ann Wade:appraisal. They just get the meeting room. Yeah, they get the
Carrie-Ann Wade:meeting room down the corridor, but be as aware of the bad stuff
Carrie-Ann Wade:I guess. Yeah, well, that doesn't work. Try not to
Carrie-Ann Wade:replicate that in your leadership
Lee Griffith:I've very much, you've looked at the positive in
Lee Griffith:what you want to be in people and I've gone I definitely don't
Lee Griffith:want to be like them. I've taken and made sure I've avoided those
Lee Griffith:negative traits.
Carrie-Ann Wade:We like to make sure that people have got few
Carrie-Ann Wade:tips and takeaway so if you haven't wanted to listen to us
Carrie-Ann Wade:for an entire episode you by now or need to just come to the end
Carrie-Ann Wade:of the How To section so Lee some of your top tips and
Carrie-Ann Wade:takeaways around your leadership lessons that might help people.
Lee Griffith:So my takeaways would be I think getting tough
Lee Griffith:in management doesn't mean banging your hand on a desk and
Lee Griffith:whilst we're on the subject hands, you don't need to be all
Lee Griffith:jazz hands to make an impact, Entering an organisation well
Lee Griffith:makes all the difference. I'd also say just do a general
Lee Griffith:reflection piece yourself. I think there's some key questions
Lee Griffith:you could having listened to this episode, sk yourself about
Lee Griffith:what have I learned in my leadership? Who do I look up to?
Lee Griffith:Who do I want to make sure that I don't become like? Am I
Lee Griffith:living true to my values? So that I think there's a
Lee Griffith:reflective piece that people can take away from today as well.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Definitely, I don't disagree with anything
Carrie-Ann Wade:you've said. And I guess the only the only additions I would
Carrie-Ann Wade:make would just be thinking about if you can step into the
Carrie-Ann Wade:role you want to be in rather than the one you are in early
Carrie-Ann Wade:and find the opportunities and the support to do that and make
Carrie-Ann Wade:sure you think about nurturing and building your network to
Carrie-Ann Wade:support you as you go through your leadership journey.
Lee Griffith:Love it.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Thanks again for listening to today's
Carrie-Ann Wade:episode.
Lee Griffith:Don't forget to hit subscribe, so you're the
Lee Griffith:first to receive new episodes when they drop every Thursday.
Carrie-Ann Wade:If you enjoyed the show, we'd love it if you
Carrie-Ann Wade:would rate it or leave a review.
Lee Griffith:And let us know your thoughts and own
Lee Griffith:experiences.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Get in touch with either of us on LinkedIn,
Carrie-Ann Wade:Twitter or Instagram.
Lee Griffith:or use the hashtag how to take the lead.
Carrie-Ann Wade:Until next week, get out there and take the
