Storytelling

Lee: 00:00:00

you creating a sticky moment.

Lee: 00:00:02

Actually let's not use the sticky word anymore

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

Now it's getting a bit, I like the first bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:07

Now it's getting a bit weird.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:08

I've gotta be honest Lee

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:48

Welcome to episode nine of how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:52

I'm here with the lovely Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

Hello Lee,

Lee: 00:00:54

Hello,

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

How are you?

Lee: 00:00:56

I'm doing well thank you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:58

Good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:58

I am pleased to hear it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:00

And in this episode, as we always do, we pick a topic associated with leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:04

that we want to explore a bit more discuss, talk about, share some of our

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:09

thoughts on, and in this episode we're going to be talking about storytelling and

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:14

the reason, well, first of all, I'd say obviously you and I Lee are communicators,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:18

by profession and professional background.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:21

So, for us, I think the concept of storytelling probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:24

comes quite naturally to us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:27

And we understand what we mean when we talk about storytelling, but I,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:31

I have been more aware recently that when we talk about storytelling in

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:36

their sort of business setting or a business context, that some people seem

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:40

to find it a bit awkward and something that they can't really get their head

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:45

around as it were in terms of like, you know, what, what do you mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:48

I have to tell a story and I think there's a sort of connotation that

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:52

when we're talking about storytelling, we're talking about making stuff

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:56

up, like making up a story.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:58

I just thought it'd be helpful to set the context a bit before we get into the

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:02

conversation a bit more about what is it that we really mean by storytelling

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:06

and briefly elaborate on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:08

So what would your take on it be Lee?

Lee: 00:02:11

Yeah, it's a really interesting one.

Lee: 00:02:13

Isn't it.

Lee: 00:02:13

And again we've covered a few of these topics.

Lee: 00:02:16

This series of things that seem relatively new and potentially icky

Lee: 00:02:21

in their concept, but actually they go back a really long way, but just

Lee: 00:02:25

have been called different things.

Lee: 00:02:27

So leaders are really used to, for example, making sure they have case

Lee: 00:02:32

studies to give some illustration to a point they're making and storytelling

Lee: 00:02:37

is a way of giving an example or giving a case study or whatever.

Lee: 00:02:42

And I think for me, The essence of a story.

Lee: 00:02:46

And that's why we use that phrase, storytelling, now is to connect people

Lee: 00:02:51

to either a personal understanding of an issue or an experience because

Lee: 00:02:56

we know people, we as individuals will all relate to stories.

Lee: 00:03:01

We either recognize ourselves or our friends and family in a story.

Lee: 00:03:05

So when we use storytelling in leadership, it's a really good way

Lee: 00:03:10

to cut through, Build connection, whether that's a connection with

Lee: 00:03:15

you as an individual or with an organization and the story it tells.

Lee: 00:03:20

And I think we also find it really easy to remember stories

Lee: 00:03:25

as opposed to other stuff.

Lee: 00:03:27

If you think, you watch a soap or a TV show, or you read a book, you

Lee: 00:03:33

can relay what's happened in that to someone else really easily.

Lee: 00:03:37

It becomes really quite sticky.

Lee: 00:03:40

I like see it as sticky content.

Lee: 00:03:42

And

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:42

I love that sticky content.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:43

I love that

Lee: 00:03:44

it, it, it stays with you, doesn't it.

Lee: 00:03:46

And I think if you can illustrate a serious point with a story,

Lee: 00:03:51

then you creating a sticky moment.

Lee: 00:03:54

Actually let's not use the sticky word anymore

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:57

Now it's getting a bit, I like the first bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:59

Now it's getting a bit weird.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:00

I've gotta be honest Lee

Lee: 00:04:03

But if you can illustrate a serious point with a story, then you are creating

Lee: 00:04:08

a moment that people remember more easily.

Lee: 00:04:11

They're gonna remember the key facts of the story.

Lee: 00:04:14

They're gonna remember how it made them feel.

Lee: 00:04:17

And they're less likely to do that if you just ram data or dry information

Lee: 00:04:23

down your throat, and I think, sorry, I'm on a roll here, but I think as a

Lee: 00:04:29

leader, we've talked about this so much.

Lee: 00:04:32

You are there to inspire, you are there to paint a picture of the vision that you

Lee: 00:04:36

have for your team or your organization.

Lee: 00:04:39

And these are usually really future focused things.

Lee: 00:04:44

So there isn't necessarily anything tangible that people can touch and

Lee: 00:04:48

feel at that moment to understand what you're trying to achieve.

Lee: 00:04:51

People have to use their imagination.

Lee: 00:04:53

And I think that's where storytelling really comes into its own and is really

Lee: 00:04:58

helpful because it can fill in the gaps.

Lee: 00:05:00

If you go back to the novel analogy.

Lee: 00:05:04

When you read a book, you, you really do build a picture of the characters in your

Lee: 00:05:08

head, the place it's set what's happening.

Lee: 00:05:11

You almost create like a film of that.

Lee: 00:05:14

And I think that's for me is when leaders tell great stories, what they

Lee: 00:05:17

do for their staff or communities or whoever they're trying to connect with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:21

Yeah, brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:22

And I, and I love that analogy around the sort of novel or the

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:25

book and, and it's absolutely right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

Isn't it as humans.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:28

And I dunno if you've ever done this, you've got your favorite books that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:30

read and like you say, you can completely picture through the words on that page,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:35

you can almost see it like a film and often people make books into films, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:39

sometimes you're quite disappointed by the film version because it doesn't match

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:43

that kind of image that you've built up in your head of, of how it looked for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:47

So, say that is, it is quite interesting as you say that as human beings, we are so

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:51

used to, in all aspects of our life, that, that whole notion of storytelling aren't

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:56

we through the TV we watch films, books, movies, when we're at school, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:00

we learn to read through reading stories.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:03

People telling us stories before the point we can read..

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:05

So I feel like it is a, a huge part of what it means to be a

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:09

human it's part of human nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:10

So for me, like you said, it makes sense that in that business

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

or leadership context, that storytelling would be part of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:17

And you've started to touch on it a bit already Lee, in terms of what you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

been saying around why as a leader storytelling can be really helpful for

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:26

setting that vision and engaging people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:28

But I'd like to just explore that a little bit more, I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:32

So.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:33

You know, why as a leader, should we consider storytelling as part of

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:38

maybe like our toolkit or our kind of, you know, communications capability?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:42

Like why is it important specifically as a leader to be more focused on storytelling?

Lee: 00:06:47

Yeah.

Lee: 00:06:48

I love that notion of it being part of a, a toolkit.

Lee: 00:06:52

Although when I think of toolkits, I always think of Levi roots with his

Lee: 00:06:55

sunshine kit, with all his spices.

Lee: 00:06:57

I dunno why mind went there said that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:59

I was thinking, Bob, the builder with this tool belt

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:02

on with everything hanging off it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:03

So , I've clearly got stuck on a very early story.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

Such are childhood stories.

Lee: 00:07:10

But I, I think the notion of having the ability to tell stories

Lee: 00:07:16

as, as a leader is a way to really connect and take people with you.

Lee: 00:07:23

It's helps you to make the complicated, easier to understand.

Lee: 00:07:29

It's a really helpful way to share learning.

Lee: 00:07:31

And ultimately what you're trying to do through it is inspire some kind of action.

Lee: 00:07:37

If you think about all the great social movements in history,

Lee: 00:07:41

they've all started with a story either, you know, someone's dream.

Lee: 00:07:45

I have a dream, I've got this vision.

Lee: 00:07:48

Or someone's lived experience that starts to get shared.

Lee: 00:07:52

So yeah, I think for me, you use stories and, and maybe we'll touch on this later,

Lee: 00:08:01

how you use stories, but you use it in a way that I think can cut through a lot of

Lee: 00:08:07

noise to connect to the root of an issue.

Lee: 00:08:11

And I think from a psychological point of view, you know, it is proven that when you

Lee: 00:08:16

listen to a story, it engages and fires up different parts of your brain, not just

Lee: 00:08:23

that data information side, but that maybe your sensory side, the creative side.

Lee: 00:08:29

And so it becomes a far more whole body experience almost for a person.

Lee: 00:08:35

If they listen to a story that they really connect with.

Lee: 00:08:38

And I think as individuals as humans, we are always seeking out stories.

Lee: 00:08:45

If you think about the trashy tabloids or gossip and all of that, we're

Lee: 00:08:50

always seeking something that goes, oh, you know, have you read this?

Lee: 00:08:53

Do you know that?

Lee: 00:08:54

So, and so's doing this.

Lee: 00:08:55

So, and so is doing that.

Lee: 00:08:57

And I think if you just give dry data or lots of information, and

Lee: 00:09:05

people don't have a story attached to it they'll create their own.

Lee: 00:09:09

And I think that's the risk for leaders not using storytelling.

Lee: 00:09:12

We talk about leaders owning their narrative, and I think telling

Lee: 00:09:17

stories to connect to the points you want to make is a really good

Lee: 00:09:21

way of owning your narrative.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:24

Yeah, definitely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:25

It's part, as you say, it's like a tool, isn't it for like what your narrative is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:29

So this is now what you do to get that narrative out there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:32

And I think in organizations, or at least, you know, some that I've worked

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:36

in or that I've connected with that there's been a bit of a spell where

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:38

people have talked about the journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:40

Like we need to describe the journey that the organization is on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:44

And it is your point about connection.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:46

Isn't it to describe that journey?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:47

Really what you're doing is telling a story

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:49

as a leader, you're telling a story about, you know, and it might be where

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:52

we've been, where we are now, where we want to go in the future, but you tell

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:56

that story to demonstrate that journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:58

And the hope that what you do is connect with people and engage them

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:02

to, to go on that journey with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:03

So Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:04

I think everything you say is, you know, absolutely valid in terms of why as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:09

leader, storytelling is important and I'm sure we'll get onto it because it's not

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:13

the be all and the end all, and there's, there's not a certain right or wrong

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

answer about how or what story you tell, but you touched on that point, I think it

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:22

was like almost leading up to consistency.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:25

So if actually people fill the void with their own stories that may not actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:29

be reflective of where the organization is at or what your vision is as a leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:34

then you've got that lack of consistency, I think, which is, I know we've talked

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:37

about in other episodes before, so.

Lee: 00:10:40

I think also when we look at storytelling in leadership, it isn't just

Lee: 00:10:47

the stories that leaders tell people.

Lee: 00:10:50

There will be stories being told all over your organization, what your staff

Lee: 00:10:55

are saying to each other over a coffee.

Lee: 00:10:57

What managers are telling their teams, perhaps what your direct reports are

Lee: 00:11:01

saying about you and the organization.

Lee: 00:11:04

So I think leader in storytelling mode is also someone who observes and

Lee: 00:11:10

listens and who's picking up on what's happening on the ground and knows the

Lee: 00:11:15

stories of the wider organization.

Lee: 00:11:19

Making sure that their own stories are enabling them to stay connected

Lee: 00:11:23

and relevant with what's happening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:25

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:26

And I know we've talked about before Lee, like sometimes when you're new

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:29

into an organization, you can feel that desperate need to make your mark, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:34

know, Chuck everything out, start again, really have an impact, but actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:38

we have talked about the importance of understanding, the history of

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:41

the organization, the experiences of the team that have come before you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:45

And a lot of that, again, you'll gain through the storytelling of other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:50

Say like you say, listening is a, a really important part of that whole

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:54

storytelling culture, because you need to listen and understand the stories

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:58

that people are telling you about what it feels like to work here, what

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:01

it used to feel like to work here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:03

You might need to do some of that being a bit more respectful of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:07

stories that you're hearing about what things used to feel like for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:10

So, like you say, the more you delve into it, the more that you see as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:14

leader, storytelling is just such a huge part of life, not just working

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:18

life, but life in general and, and you are right, everybody is out there

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

telling their story about what it's like to work in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:26

So there's also that link with reputation and perceptions of you and perceptions

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:31

of your organization based on the stories that other people are telling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:35

So, definitely something I feel like it's really important

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:37

to be clued into as a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:34

We've all probably had experiences and worked with leaders who are

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:38

brilliant storytellers, who really engage you and inspire you and use

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:45

that tool of storytelling to kind of capture your imagination, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:49

really fire you up and motivate you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:52

But I'm sure we've also had experiences of others who are maybe not quite so good

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:56

at it, or they perhaps haven't really grasped the concept of, to storytelling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:02

That probably sometimes can feel a bit awkward for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:06

You can tell that people that as leaders are maybe not so

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:08

comfortable in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

And for me, I wonder if some of that is about more of the practicalities around

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:15

how do you tell a compelling story?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:18

How do you make a story compelling?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:19

How do you pick which story to tell?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:22

Cause I've had experiences of leaders who maybe rather than a story use an

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:27

anecdote, but that anecdote doesn't quite match or line up with the

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:32

narrative that they're trying to share.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:33

So I'd be interested in your views about what makes a compelling story and how

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:38

you can think about that as a leader.

Lee: 00:14:41

Yeah, I think on your point around anecdotes first I do think the mistake

Lee: 00:14:47

that some people make is that they know they have to tell a story and then they

Lee: 00:14:52

try to shoehorn it into their narrative.

Lee: 00:14:55

And as you say, it might jar with the tone of what they've been saying.

Lee: 00:14:59

Sometimes that can be really powerful as a technique, but

Lee: 00:15:03

sometimes it just falls a bit flat.

Lee: 00:15:06

It might be, actually just having an anecdote, it doesn't leave you

Lee: 00:15:11

with that sense of I want more or the have a so-what moment, which is

Lee: 00:15:14

what you are seeking from a story.

Lee: 00:15:17

It might be someone just only has one or two stories and they just

Lee: 00:15:21

keep repeating it and everyone's going, oh bloody hell it's one again!

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:24

I've I've had that experience of a leader before where it's like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:28

oh, it's that it's back to that story again, that everyone else could

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:31

probably tell better than the person

Lee: 00:15:33

yeah, it loses the impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:35

Yes, they've heard it so many times.

Lee: 00:15:37

Yeah.

Lee: 00:15:38

And then it could be that they've just picked any story.

Lee: 00:15:43

Because they felt the needs and that pressure to, and I've definitely

Lee: 00:15:47

worked with people who, for every single presentation that they

Lee: 00:15:51

did, it was like, I need a story.

Lee: 00:15:52

I need a story and find me a story.

Lee: 00:15:55

And for me, I don't think it works as easy as that.

Lee: 00:15:58

A, I don't think you need to have a story in absolutely everything you do, because

Lee: 00:16:04

it can look a bit trite and a bit false.

Lee: 00:16:08

If, you know, you're just giving your weekly update to the organization

Lee: 00:16:13

and suddenly you wanna come in with this big motivational story.

Lee: 00:16:17

It doesn't, it doesn't really work.

Lee: 00:16:18

And for me, I think there's something about it being a genuine story.

Lee: 00:16:22

So a story that you've either witnessed or heard or seen firsthand that you

Lee: 00:16:29

relate to, and it makes that point.

Lee: 00:16:31

And I think it can be really hard.

Lee: 00:16:33

And I certainly, from, from my communications background, when

Lee: 00:16:37

you get told, just give me a story and the leader doesn't connect with

Lee: 00:16:41

the story because they just want it to throw in as, as an example.

Lee: 00:16:44

So I do think you need to be careful in how, and when you use stories.

Lee: 00:16:49

In terms of what makes a compelling story, I think there few principles, which are.

Lee: 00:16:59

And I suppose it's the same for a lot of the stuff that you communicate, know

Lee: 00:17:03

your audience, people are gonna connect with different stories in different ways.

Lee: 00:17:09

So you need to know what's likely to connect best with the people you

Lee: 00:17:13

are trying to, to talk to be really clear around what's the purpose.

Lee: 00:17:18

So what's the objective.

Lee: 00:17:19

What's the end point I'm trying to get to, by telling this story.

Lee: 00:17:24

If you can't boil it down to a single key message that you want to get

Lee: 00:17:29

across, you probably, haven't got a very strong story to begin with.

Lee: 00:17:32

And I think that's always a really good marker.

Lee: 00:17:34

I think when you are looking at a structure of the story, it's the same

Lee: 00:17:43

as when you read a book, you know, you have to have a hero that hero isn't you.

Lee: 00:17:49

And I think that again is somewhere that leaders trip up that they position

Lee: 00:17:53

themselves or the organization is the hero of the story and that puts people off.

Lee: 00:17:58

But the hero needs to encounter a problem of some sort.

Lee: 00:18:03

And there needs to be a process of coming to a resolution or have a way ahead.

Lee: 00:18:07

And, and it is as simple as that, obviously you don't need

Lee: 00:18:09

to be as detailed as a novel.

Lee: 00:18:11

And I do think some people go into unnecessary detail and lose people in

Lee: 00:18:15

the process of telling their story.

Lee: 00:18:18

And I think there's also something around the type of story for the situation.

Lee: 00:18:24

So not only the audience, but the type of action or outcome that you want.

Lee: 00:18:30

So if you want to get people to buy into an idea, You need a story

Lee: 00:18:36

that's absolutely gonna relate to that person that you need to make

Lee: 00:18:40

the change and it needs some kind of positive outcome to really motivate

Lee: 00:18:44

them to want to make that change.

Lee: 00:18:46

If you want to show who you are as a person and a bit about your values.

Lee: 00:18:52

You need a story that's gonna reveal something about you.

Lee: 00:18:55

It might be a vulnerability.

Lee: 00:18:57

It might be how you dealt with a difficult situation or some adversity, but you are

Lee: 00:19:03

sharing and opening up about something that gives, gives a really good example.

Lee: 00:19:07

Or if your aim is that you want to share information or perhaps improve knowledge

Lee: 00:19:14

within a team or an organization or whatever, then your story needs to.

Lee: 00:19:20

Make sure it's got that problem.

Lee: 00:19:21

It's got a bit of context.

Lee: 00:19:23

It's got a solution and that you are really clearly explaining it.

Lee: 00:19:28

You are making sure that the information you provides really relevant and it's

Lee: 00:19:32

focus it doesn't kind of meander through.

Lee: 00:19:35

I would say there's a really great book that I read.

Lee: 00:19:37

So it was recommended to me by a coach many, many years ago called

Lee: 00:19:43

Squirrel inc by Steven Denning.

Lee: 00:19:46

We we'll put it in the show notes.

Lee: 00:19:48

And it is a story in and of itself, but it's a story that illustrates

Lee: 00:19:53

leadership through storytelling.

Lee: 00:19:57

And he's got section in here around the seven forms of

Lee: 00:20:02

organizational storytelling.

Lee: 00:20:03

So if you want to try and think what type of story do I need to

Lee: 00:20:06

tell for what type of example, this is a really good book for that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:09

I love that really good top tip.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:11

Thank you, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:12

And as you've been speaking through some of those examples that you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:15

given I'm, I can already see in my mind, like the exact stories that people I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:20

worked with as leaders have told that kind of fit those examples and some

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:24

which have worked well and not so well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:26

And I think often you are perhaps a custodian of someone else's story that

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:31

you are using to illustrate something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:33

So I think you have to do that really respectfully.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

But you also, again, have to think about is this story I'm telling

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:39

really hitting the purpose that I'm, I'm intending to tell it for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

So I I've worked with someone before who used to tell a brilliant story that was

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:48

about reflecting diversity and fairness.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:51

And it was really on the money and everyone was always

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

really compelled by the story.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

And they were saying, you know, in our organization, this is how we want

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

to operate and, and here's the story.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:00

But the same person then had another story that they would tell quite

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

frequently in staff sessions that was about innovation, but actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:08

it just didn't quite hit the mark.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

Like you could almost see the audience weren't quite engaging with it in

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:14

the same way as the other story, because like you said, maybe on the

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:18

face of it, it felt like this is a story about being innovative, so I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:21

gonna tell it, but actually it, it didn't really align with what we were

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:26

trying to achieve in the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:28

So it just felt a bit like, okay, that's a really interesting story from the past.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:33

And so what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:33

And I think it's that and so what piece, isn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:36

If you're going to use storytelling in that way then, and so what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:40

And, and I liked the point that you made around leaders, not always

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:44

making the stories about themselves.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:46

So although often you might have to tell other people's stories sometimes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:50

It's more authentic and more impactful to have that person tell their own

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:55

story as part of how you're doing that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:57

And I know there are organizations and, and the one that I work for does this

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:01

at the start of every board meeting, they invite a patient or a carer to

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

come and share their story about using a particular service and actually that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:11

far more powerful to hear it directly than it would be to hear it third hand

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:16

through one of the board members relaying the story, if that makes sense, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:20

it, it has that much more impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:22

So, I think there's some really top tips in there actually about

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

how, how to pick the right story and how to make that compelling.

Lee: 00:22:29

I think you are, you are right about sharing other people's stories can be

Lee: 00:22:34

something that you tell, but you need to demonstrate how you are connecting

Lee: 00:22:39

to it so that other people understand how they connect to it, or you need

Lee: 00:22:42

that person's voice to shine through.

Lee: 00:22:44

And I think back to one of the strongest stories that I ever worked on in,

Lee: 00:22:49

in my corporate career was we did a massive transformation program shifting

Lee: 00:22:55

care out hospitals, into community.

Lee: 00:22:58

And it was really, really tempting for the leadership to want to keep talking about

Lee: 00:23:05

the drivers for change from a financial point of view or from a technical point

Lee: 00:23:09

of view how many beds, how many staff, how much money we are gonna need to

Lee: 00:23:14

save and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:23:15

And that started to become the narrative and.

Lee: 00:23:19

I did some filming with some patients who were using the new

Lee: 00:23:23

services that we were developing.

Lee: 00:23:25

And there was this one lady who was in her eighties and she was talking about

Lee: 00:23:31

the perceptions of being an 80 year old, how she wanted to keep her independence.

Lee: 00:23:36

That people were treating her as if she was old and she didn't feel old.

Lee: 00:23:39

And she said, all the magazines talk about, you know, you're in your older

Lee: 00:23:42

years, she said, I don't feel like that.

Lee: 00:23:44

And she was having these struggles with, with her health and it was making

Lee: 00:23:48

people treat her more dependently than she, she wanted to be treated.

Lee: 00:23:52

And the biggest difference that we made to her life and her

Lee: 00:23:55

independence in her own words was changing her toilet seat at home.

Lee: 00:24:01

And this lady telling her story in her own words was so, so powerful

Lee: 00:24:08

because she was our family member.

Lee: 00:24:10

She was us in the future.

Lee: 00:24:13

It was totally relatable.

Lee: 00:24:16

And, and you got it from the emotion that she shared in the story from the,

Lee: 00:24:21

from the relief she had that her, you know, issue had been resolved and.

Lee: 00:24:28

I think when we captured that story and started sharing it, whether it

Lee: 00:24:33

was us using the video in lots of different settings or whether, because

Lee: 00:24:37

the leadership team connected with the story as well that they could share it.

Lee: 00:24:41

It just transformed the narrative of the program that we did.

Lee: 00:24:44

And it really helped us to get more people on side with the changes

Lee: 00:24:48

because they could relate it to them or their mom or their dad or whoever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:53

And that relatability is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:55

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:55

And I'm, I'm gonna take a slight tangent, but hopefully bring it back to the

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:58

relatability bit, because I think there are people who you know, I think, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:02

think we agree, like it's part of human nature to be interested in stories, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:05

there will always be people who are more driven by the data, by the science, by

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:10

the facts, by, you know, something that's maybe feels slightly more academic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:14

But if I liken it to probably the start and the height of the pandemic,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:18

obviously the country had all of the facts about the numbers and the numbers

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:23

in themselves were fairly compelling in terms of, you know, it's, this

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

many people are being hospitalized.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:28

This many people have, have got COVID.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:30

For example, this is how contagious COVID is, but I still think if you hadn't been

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:36

impacted by COVID yourself, it was like, oh, well, those numbers sound terrible.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:41

But, and so what for me, why can't I still go out and see my friends and family?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:46

And it wasn't until we started to get to the point where through the media

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:49

and in other sources, we were able to actually hear directly from people who

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:54

had that experience of COVID and how that really impacted their lives or.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:58

Family members of people who had been, you know, really poorly and hospitalized

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:03

with COVID that I think that almost worked then with the facts to be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:07

to complete that whole compelling story where people could actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:11

see the impact that it was having.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:13

So definitely hearing people's stories in their own words is so

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:16

powerful, and that they don't always have to be really traumatic things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:20

But as you say, there, there usually is in, in the most compelling, personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:24

experiences, we hear about something that somebody's seen as a challenge and

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:28

then them overcoming that challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:29

And that's the bit that really resonates with you.

Lee: 00:26:32

And I think you're right on the, the big numbers thing I always

Lee: 00:26:35

used to talk about when people talk about financial challenges and we

Lee: 00:26:39

need to save X number of millions, or we are wasting Y number of millions.

Lee: 00:26:44

And I always used say, we're talking monopoly money here.

Lee: 00:26:46

People don't see it is real.

Lee: 00:26:50

It's not something they can touch and feel.

Lee: 00:26:52

They can't picture it.

Lee: 00:26:53

It's a big, it's a big figure.

Lee: 00:26:55

They know it's a big figure, but it doesn't relate to their reality.

Lee: 00:26:58

And if you need to connect with people and from a financial point of view, you

Lee: 00:27:02

start talking about the pennies or you look at it on a personal impact basis.

Lee: 00:27:06

Well, what does it mean if this person's not getting this?

Lee: 00:27:08

And we see this now with the cost of living crisis, it's exactly the same.

Lee: 00:27:13

It boils it down to what, what does it mean for me on an individual?

Lee: 00:27:17

What's my reality every day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:20

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

And, and we've just touched upon that, you know, that element of not everybody

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:25

will be comfortable with pure storytelling and we're not suggesting that's the

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:28

only tool that you've got as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

But if you are a leader who finds it maybe a bit uncomfortable, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:35

you are more about the data, the science behind things, whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

And, and it doesn't come naturally to, to you to tell a story.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:43

It's not maybe, you know, how you would normally approach things, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:47

you've realized as we've been talking today, it, is a really effective

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:51

way of engaging people, sharing your vision, supporting your leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:56

How can you actually practice storytelling to become more comfortable with it

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:01

and to feel like it's something you can do as part of your leadership?

Lee: 00:28:05

Mm, just to reinforce, I suppose, the point of why storytelling is important.

Lee: 00:28:11

I have a stat for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:14

See, excellent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:15

It's all coming together as if we planned it.

Lee: 00:28:17

There was this study when I was looking at some other research,

Lee: 00:28:21

I found this study that was done by lecturer, which showed that 63% of

Lee: 00:28:25

people that he studied remembered the stories they were told and only 5%

Lee: 00:28:30

of people remembered the statistics.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:32

That is such a good stat.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:33

I love it.

Lee: 00:28:34

But I don't think data needs to be boring.

Lee: 00:28:36

I do think you, you want to use data and I do think if you use it

Lee: 00:28:40

sparingly, it has super impact.

Lee: 00:28:43

I think the most engaging of academic people can bring the evidence

Lee: 00:28:48

and data to life through stories.

Lee: 00:28:51

You can connect a story to a number quite easily.

Lee: 00:28:53

My, my husband works in stats and data, and it's always quite

Lee: 00:28:57

interesting cuz he is more stats and data driven and I'm a story person.

Lee: 00:29:01

So our conversations can always be quite funny, but he's been on courses around

Lee: 00:29:06

how to develop narratives with data.

Lee: 00:29:09

So it's not necessarily about being, cause I think this is a fear of,

Lee: 00:29:13

of data driven people that they've got to be creative with the facts.

Lee: 00:29:18

And that, isn't what we're saying.

Lee: 00:29:19

It's, it's more about breaking down what a number actually means.

Lee: 00:29:24

So it isn't about, I need to, to make the numbers look sexy, which I

Lee: 00:29:29

do think sometimes I've heard that used as an excuse for why we can't

Lee: 00:29:34

put a bit of flavor around something.

Lee: 00:29:36

I think if it doesn't come naturally to you and you want to start developing

Lee: 00:29:42

that notion of bringing storytelling into, into the way you work.

Lee: 00:29:46

I think it's like anything.

Lee: 00:29:47

It's a bit of trial and error, error.

Lee: 00:29:49

It's a bit of practice.

Lee: 00:29:51

I think certainly when I've worked with leaders, I usually say start

Lee: 00:29:56

to keep a note of stories as you go around doing your day to day work.

Lee: 00:30:00

So you start to build a bank up before you perhaps use them.

Lee: 00:30:04

So you'll become more aware of the stories around you.

Lee: 00:30:07

So it could be maybe just listening and observing people in the organization

Lee: 00:30:12

and what stories they're telling as we, you said earlier in the episode, It could

Lee: 00:30:16

also be things like sitting at home, watching the news or an interview or, you

Lee: 00:30:21

know, some great Ted talks, for example.

Lee: 00:30:23

So you could start to see how people are using stories in big, serious subjects.

Lee: 00:30:31

It could be when you watch a presentation at work, just looking at

Lee: 00:30:35

how they try and connect on the topic or don't, cause you can also pick up

Lee: 00:30:39

by what people don't do and what you think would make it more compelling.

Lee: 00:30:43

I think the risk is that someone starting out fresh feels like they have to create

Lee: 00:30:50

these massive moments that has everyone laughing or crying in their seats.

Lee: 00:30:56

And I, I don't think we're suggesting that I, I think that takes a lot of

Lee: 00:31:00

practice and only the really, really skilled oraters can Achieve that.

Lee: 00:31:06

And I, I don't think that the most typical of us, you know, even us as

Lee: 00:31:10

communicators can always do that.

Lee: 00:31:12

I don't think you need to drown your narrative in lots of stories.

Lee: 00:31:17

One powerful story says so much than 10 trying to be shoehorned

Lee: 00:31:22

in throughout what it is you do.

Lee: 00:31:25

And I think make sure you link it back to the bigger picture.

Lee: 00:31:29

So what's the message that you're trying to get across.

Lee: 00:31:31

What's the action you want people to take as a result of sharing this information.

Lee: 00:31:38

And I think if you're really struggling, there's a lot of great books and I

Lee: 00:31:41

can share a couple of recommendations.

Lee: 00:31:43

There's lots of courses and actually working with a coach is

Lee: 00:31:48

a really good way to start testing stories as you collect them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:54

Some people might feel, feel fearful of it, but actually the more you

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:57

practice, the more confident you become.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:00

And the more that, like you say, you observe others who are really

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:02

good at it or really bad at it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:04

The more it's in your mindset to think about it, but I loved your point about,

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:08

like, you don't need hundreds of stories in, in every communication that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:12

sharing with people, like one powerful story that really illustrates the point

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:15

that you want to make is what you need.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:18

So, some really useful stuff there, which probably brings us to our part

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:22

of the episode where we do share a couple of our takeaways and top tips.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:26

So, Lee, what would yours be?

Lee: 00:32:28

I Would say going back to the starting point, storytelling is a really

Lee: 00:32:33

great way to build connection, and I think it is the clearest way that you

Lee: 00:32:38

can set out your stall as a leader.

Lee: 00:32:40

Without telling the story you're just presenting facts and information, and

Lee: 00:32:46

people are gonna fill the void and create their own narratives, which might not be

Lee: 00:32:51

the story you want them to be telling.

Lee: 00:32:53

and I also would say, don't make yourself the hero of the story.

Lee: 00:32:56

I think that's really important.

Lee: 00:32:58

It's it's about other people, not you.

Lee: 00:33:01

It's not a dark art.

Lee: 00:33:03

So don't feel like you need to be inauthentic in the way

Lee: 00:33:07

that you tell your stories.

Lee: 00:33:09

and Practice, practice, practice it will come.

Lee: 00:33:12

It will all start to click eventually.

Lee: 00:33:15

I've got a couple of books.

Lee: 00:33:15

I've mentioned Squirrel Inc by Steven Dening.

Lee: 00:33:19

I'm currently reading unleash the power of storytelling by Rob

Lee: 00:33:24

Biesenbach, which is really good.

Lee: 00:33:26

It's quite a practical guide.

Lee: 00:33:28

And another book I absolutely love is building a story brand by Donald Miller,

Lee: 00:33:33

which is more organizational stories than individual leadership stories.

Lee: 00:33:39

But I think as a leader, who's looking at the bigger vision

Lee: 00:33:42

and how they tell that story.

Lee: 00:33:44

Absolutely.

Lee: 00:33:45

A must read.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:46

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:47

I'm loving your your book recommendations there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:49

Thank you, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:50

And I think the only thing I would add in terms of my own top takeaway is

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:54

just be really clear on the purpose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:57

What is the so what that you want to leave people with, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:00

that will help you decide what's compelling story you need to tell.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:04

So why are you telling the story in the first place is, is probably