Are we really listening?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

Oh, we're back to buckets.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:01

We haven't added bucket since probably like series two on Instagram.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

I'm loving that the buckets are back.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:48

Welcome to this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:52

I am here as always with the lovely Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:55

Hello Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

How are you doing?

Lee: 00:00:57

Good evening.

Lee: 00:00:58

Um, well, not to people who are listening cause they could be listening at any time

Lee: 00:01:01

of the day, but good evening to you Carrie Ann at the time that we're recording it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:05

And good evening to you too.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:07

I feel like there's gonna be some sort of Two Ronnies slash

Lee: 00:01:10

yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

reporter, news reporter sketch.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:12

So, um, so before we crack on with the episode, just a little check in how you

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

doing, what your energy levels like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:18

If is anything exciting happened since the last time we, we spoke.

Lee: 00:01:22

has anything exciting happened?

Lee: 00:01:25

I've discovered Vinted.

Lee: 00:01:27

That's my, that's my personal life excitement.

Lee: 00:01:30

I've, I'm now selling all my shit basically on Vinted to other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:36

I love that you're having a declutter.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

A pre spring, Spring clean.

Lee: 00:01:40

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

it's kind of a new season vibe though.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:43

I feel like people are clearing out, making, making space, whether

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:46

that's physical head space,

Lee: 00:01:48

it's quite cathartic and it's also nice to see the money come in,

Lee: 00:01:52

particularly as I got my gas bill this week, which, which, yeah, I'm

Lee: 00:01:55

sat here with my hot water bottle,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:57

Every, every possible item of clothing that you haven't sold, on

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:00

Vinted you're wearing to keep warm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:02

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:04

. Anyhow, we digress as we usually do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:07

We have a love bit of small talk at the start of an episode, but we know that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:10

not what the listeners are here for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:12

They are here for the good stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:13

And, in this episode, we wanted to just explore a bit more around, listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:19

And what it really means to listen as a leader and whether we feel like we really

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:25

are listening in our leadership positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:27

So, before we get into the good stuff and, and I give you a bit of a grilling league,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

cause I always feel that's that's the role I take on, you're much better when

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:34

you do these at making it conversational.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:36

Whereas when I'm, I'm in the driving seat for the podcast, I like to

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

give you a good grilling cuz I know there's load, I can learn.

Lee: 00:02:42

You get your Jeremy Paxman on, you're like, Give me the answers,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:46

Tell me, tell me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

Anyhow, we do talk a lot about listening as a leader, but I wanted to

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:52

explore what we really mean by that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:54

I was thinking about an article that I read in Forbes, and it is a little

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:57

bit dated now, but that article stated that 85% of what we know we have

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:02

learned from listening, interestingly, people generally listen though at

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:07

a 25% comprehension rate, which is probably not a surprise to us with

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:11

our backgrounds in communications and thinking about how we, really

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

support people to, listen understand, messages that we're putting out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:20

But in a typical business day, we spend 45% of our time listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:25

30% of our time talking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:27

And if you're interested in the other percentages, it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

16% reading and 9% writing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

So I was just setting a bit of context there around how important listening is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:38

And I know we will talk about how to be a good listener.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:41

I hope at some point, um, in this conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

But in the kind of leadership space, I think, we often hear people

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:48

make comments about leadership, feeling like quite a lonely place.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:53

But for me, it can also feel like quite a noisy place to be as a leader because I

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:57

feel like everyone's got something to say.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:00

You know how you are leading, what you are leading, uh, sometimes to your

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:04

face and sometimes I'm sure behind your back as a leader, so it, it can

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:08

feel quite noisy and people have got an opinion about what you should be

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:12

doing and how you should be doing it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

There are absolutely loads of calls on your time as a leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

and we've talked about some of this before in other episodes with many

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:21

competing demands and priorities.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:23

So, I wanted to just think about how, as leaders, can we cut through that noise?

Lee: 00:04:29

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:29

how do we work out what's important in terms of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:32

conversations we're part of and, and who we are choosing to listen to?

Lee: 00:04:36

I love this topic because it's something that's very dear to my heart.

Lee: 00:04:40

And quite important to me both in my corporate role when I've worked

Lee: 00:04:45

in organizations and I've seen the results and the fallout from

Lee: 00:04:50

leaders who haven't listened, um, and that poor culture that develops.

Lee: 00:04:56

Because bad behaviors start to permeate staff engagement drops, performance drops,

Lee: 00:05:03

customer experience is affected, and then reputation, all of that, it starts to

Lee: 00:05:07

spiral and it can all start from something as simple as leaders not listening.

Lee: 00:05:12

So it is absolutely something that I feel quite passionate about.

Lee: 00:05:17

And obviously the job I do now, I work with leaders around making the

Lee: 00:05:22

right impact and a lot of that is around listening to build connection

Lee: 00:05:28

and testing what you hear as a leader to help build that trust.

Lee: 00:05:32

So yes, I'm like all in on this conversation today and I I really,

Lee: 00:05:37

before I get to the actual question you've asked, cuz this is my way,

Lee: 00:05:40

I go off on a little tangent,

Lee: 00:05:42

But your figures were, were really interested to start because actually

Lee: 00:05:47

we are talking, listening, or when you read those figures out, listening is

Lee: 00:05:51

in through your ears, but there are so many other ways you can listen.

Lee: 00:05:54

So actually I think all those figures will constitute some form of listening.

Lee: 00:05:58

So what you read, are you actually paying attention, absorbing it?

Lee: 00:06:03

Um, you know what you're seeing.

Lee: 00:06:05

Are you hearing what's being.

Lee: 00:06:07

Said in, in nonverbal ways.

Lee: 00:06:10

So I think it, you know, I don't want our conversation today to be purely

Lee: 00:06:14

about what is verbally said, because I do think it's more complex about than that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

And to throw another stat in the mix there then, um, which I also

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:22

found quite interesting, when we're talking about listening, and I know we,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:26

we'll talk more about the, the how around this as well, but less than 2% of all

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:31

professionals have had any formal sort of learning or training to understand and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:35

improve listening skills and techniques.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:37

So when you're talking about the fact, it isn't just about what you hear

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:40

through your ears, I mean, you know, 2% of people actually really understanding

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:45

what it means to listen and practicing good listening techniques is, is

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:48

quite staggering really, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:50

But back to that first point, Lee, around there is a lot of calls on

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:53

leaders to listen and to be part of lots of different conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

How do you start to work out as a leader that the space you need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:02

be in, in terms of that listening, what conversations are important?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:06

You know, who, who do you choose to listen to as a leader and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:09

I guess more importantly, why?

Lee: 00:07:11

It is incredibly overwhelming because everyone does want a piece of

Lee: 00:07:15

you, as you said, so you've got to work out, um, How you're gonna cope with

Lee: 00:07:21

that as a leader, first and foremost.

Lee: 00:07:22

You don't want to kneejerk respond to everything that comes

Lee: 00:07:26

your way or ignore the wrong people, cuz you will pay a price.

Lee: 00:07:30

So this is an important part of your establishing your

Lee: 00:07:33

leadership approach for me.

Lee: 00:07:35

So for me, I think there are a few things.

Lee: 00:07:38

I think firstly looking at the methods and mechanisms you have in place to listen.

Lee: 00:07:45

Then there's something for me about the types of questions, how you determine the

Lee: 00:07:49

questions that you are seeking to answer.

Lee: 00:07:51

Cause I think that will help inform how and who you listen

Lee: 00:07:54

to . Then that moves on to what you actually do with what you hear.

Lee: 00:07:59

And I think it's not as simple as just aligning what or who you listen

Lee: 00:08:04

to to say your vision or your values.

Lee: 00:08:06

Cause that could be a really simple way of chopping it up.

Lee: 00:08:09

But I think that's when you are at risk of missing what's really

Lee: 00:08:13

going on in your organization and what's really important to people.

Lee: 00:08:16

So there's some broader questions that you need to start with and look

Lee: 00:08:20

at different mechanisms to do that.

Lee: 00:08:22

And I do think my other standing principle is, As leaders, we have to

Lee: 00:08:28

stop worrying about or putting all our effort and energy into those who shout

Lee: 00:08:33

the loudest, because as we said, there's so much more to who and how you listen.

Lee: 00:08:38

So I think we probably explore some of that in a bit more detail as

Lee: 00:08:41

we carry on with the discussion.

Lee: 00:08:43

But for me, those are the kind of four my four buckets.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:47

Oh, we're back to buckets.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:48

We haven't added bucket since probably like series two on Instagram.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:52

I'm loving that the buckets are back.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:55

I think that's really helpful in terms of how you've laid that out there in terms

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:59

of, of the principles and foundations around how we start to to think about

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:03

who, who we listen to as a leader and what sort of conversations we're part of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:08

I loved what you said about not getting sucked into that trap necessarily of

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:12

always listening to those who shout loudest and have the loudest voice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:16

In fact, it is really important, isn't it, to give a voice and really listen to

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:21

those people who, who are not being vocal.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:24

And who are perhaps being quite quiet.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:26

And I think that is definitely something to consider, um, when you

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:29

are in that leadership space that actually sometimes the people that are

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:33

choosing not to engage are the people whose opinions and voice you need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:37

listen to, sometimes more than others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:39

I find that a lot with the whole idea of staff surveys, like it is a brilliant

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:44

temperature check to do staff surveys, but I'm usually more interested in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:48

reasons why people choose not to fill them in rather than pushing for that magical

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:52

number of a percentage response rate.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:54

Cuz actually the fact that a certain percentage of your workforce are choosing

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:58

not to fill that staff survey in should really be telling you something and you

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:02

should, should be exploring that and wanting to listen to what that's telling.

Lee: 00:10:07

When I was in my corporate role, we did a big change program, and it was

Lee: 00:10:12

changing services, and there was a small but very, very, very vocal group who

Lee: 00:10:17

wanted to campaign against the change.

Lee: 00:10:19

And there was an anxiety from the senior leadership team that we

Lee: 00:10:22

needed to pander to that and the noise that they were creating.

Lee: 00:10:26

And if we had gone down that route and just followed their lead and

Lee: 00:10:30

responded to everything they said.

Lee: 00:10:32

We wouldn't have made any of the changes, and I was quite headstrong, I

Lee: 00:10:36

suppose, in going, We won't ignore them.

Lee: 00:10:39

Their voice is welcome, but we need to find alternative voices and

Lee: 00:10:42

different ways that people more broadly can engage in the conversations.

Lee: 00:10:46

And so actually we found this really active community of people who didn't.

Lee: 00:10:52

Didn't want to be part of that noise, Didn't relate to

Lee: 00:10:55

what the noise was saying.

Lee: 00:10:56

Wanted to be part of a solution to make things better.

Lee: 00:10:59

And we, we got a far stronger outcome of the change program because we

Lee: 00:11:04

said, Hang on a minute, we're not just gonna go to the people who, who

Lee: 00:11:07

think they've got the ears of the politicians or the media and all of that,

Lee: 00:11:12

because they can create a loud noise.

Lee: 00:11:14

But we're gonna go into the communities and the people who are

Lee: 00:11:17

actually affected and listen to them

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:19

I absolutely think you're right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:20

It's about trying to create that diverse voices in it and, and try to hear from

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:24

everybody, which, like we've said, feels like a bit of an overwhelming tasks

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:28

when, when there are so many different stakeholders that you're trying to manage.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:32

And I think something around working out which conversations you need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:36

be in is about doing that stakeholder.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:39

I'm making it sound really formal, stakeholder mapping piece.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:41

But there is something about understanding who your key stakeholder groups are and

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:45

then how you can reach out and be part of those conversations with them for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:50

Um, and I was just interested reflecting back on something you said when

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:54

you first started speaking about, it's important not always just to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:57

listen to those voices that align.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:00

With your vision and your values and, and what you are setting

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:03

out for the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:05

And I think that's almost a similar note of caution, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:09

Around just listening to those voices that, that shout the loudest because

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:12

actually, You know, you do need to, to create a space for people to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:17

that challenge and to challenge your own thinking because actually, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

need to listen to those people that are not maybe on board with your vision

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:24

to find out why there might be some really good, genuine stuff in there,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:28

which means you have to change course or do something a bit differently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:32

So if you are only in those conversations and spaces listening to

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:35

people, you've got the same view of as you, that can be quite dangerous.

Lee: 00:12:39

We've advised against the echo chamber many, many a time and I think

Lee: 00:12:43

this is one area that is really important.

Lee: 00:12:46

And I also think that particularly with things like your vision and values,

Lee: 00:12:50

You need to, I mean, your values are personal to you, and they're less likely

Lee: 00:12:55

to be influenced by views, but the vision that you set for particularly if

Lee: 00:13:00

you're working in an organization, has to be responsive to the needs of the

Lee: 00:13:05

people that the organization serves.

Lee: 00:13:08

And if you come in with a completely left field idea that that.

Lee: 00:13:12

Isn't going to land well with people.

Lee: 00:13:15

That doesn't mean it has to be popular cuz you can take

Lee: 00:13:18

people on a journey of change.

Lee: 00:13:20

But if they think you are not tackling the things that are gonna be important

Lee: 00:13:23

to them, they're never gonna buy into you and your vision and then you failed at

Lee: 00:13:27

that first hurdle of leadership really.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:24

I guess just to move this on a little bit, and I think it

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:27

links nicely to your point, for me, you know, truly listening, it's, it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:31

more than just words, isn't it to say that I'm a leader who listens and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:36

and I think there is this danger that people can perceive leaders who go big

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:41

in that space and make ironically, a big noise about listening, um, can

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:45

almost sometimes feel a bit tick box.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:47

Um, and some of that is about the mechanisms I guess, that get

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:50

put in place around listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:53

I'm just interested to hear from you in terms of your experience about, what

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:58

advice you would give to leaders about how to truly listen to their stakeholders,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:02

rather than going down that tick box route of we've done a consultation event, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:06

means we've listened, tick, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:09

Where would you start with the advice for leaders about how to truly listen?

Lee: 00:15:13

Well, I think if you go back to the basic premise of a conversation where most

Lee: 00:15:18

people are in conversations, they actually listening for an opportunity to speak.

Lee: 00:15:24

That is they're already working through.

Lee: 00:15:27

What's their response gonna be?

Lee: 00:15:28

I'm waiting for a chance to jump into that conversation so

Lee: 00:15:32

they're not truly listening.

Lee: 00:15:33

So if you take that as, as the premise and then you can see how

Lee: 00:15:37

that would work through a whole load of different scenarios.

Lee: 00:15:41

I think the things that get in the way of you listening is when you're trying

Lee: 00:15:47

to guess where that conversation might be heading, if you are trying to rehearse

Lee: 00:15:52

your reply to the conversation, if you're making assumptions about where

Lee: 00:15:56

that other person or group of people are coming from, if you are feeling

Lee: 00:16:00

anxious or you've got a fear about what you might hear, um, or what people are

Lee: 00:16:04

saying, if you are thinking too much about yourself as you put the question out.

Lee: 00:16:10

If you've got that pressure of time because you need to deliver

Lee: 00:16:14

something by X point, all of these things impact your ability to listen.

Lee: 00:16:20

And as we said from the outside, listening isn't just about what you hear, it's what

Lee: 00:16:25

you see, what you read, how you hear it, and the things you don't see or hear.

Lee: 00:16:31

So it's really multifaceted and I think the best conversations and

Lee: 00:16:35

the best way to listen and when people really feel listened to.

Lee: 00:16:40

is when someone can really respond to all

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:43

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:44

I think, I'm sure we can all give examples of where we've been in

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:47

conversations with people where they are saying one thing with their words,

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:52

and you are listening, but actually their body language, for example, is

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:55

saying something completely different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:57

And it's being able to recognize those sorts of cues, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:01

And understand that actually, although somebody might be saying one thing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:05

actually, what they really mean, or how they really feel is, is hidden somewhere

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:09

else and that you need to have that, that curiosity and that desire as, as well as

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:14

I guess that skill to dig a bit deeper and understand more about what it is that

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:18

somebody's truly trying to say to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:20

And I think that comes a lot with the fear piece as well, that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:23

mentioned that, sometimes particularly if you are a leader, going into a

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:27

conversation with somebody that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:29

Be quite overwhelming for that person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:31

And we hear that phrase a lot about speaking truth to power, but that

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:35

isn't always easy to do actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:37

And I think as a leader you need to almost have your senses heightened to that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:41

The fact that you might have to do a bit more digging and maybe a bit of

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:45

triangulation with what other things are telling you to really kind of

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:49

understand whether what you've heard is, is really what that person or that group

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:53

of people have said to you for sure.

Lee: 00:17:55

I brushed over it.

Lee: 00:17:56

But this, this notion of, and we've all done it where we think we know

Lee: 00:18:01

what the answer to the question is that we've asked or we've made an

Lee: 00:18:05

assumption about the person and the angle they're gonna bring to the discussion.

Lee: 00:18:09

And I think we have to be really careful in those situations because, They're

Lee: 00:18:13

gonna stop you being inquisitive when you go out and discuss to people.

Lee: 00:18:18

Or it's gonna lead the type of questions that you ask, and so

Lee: 00:18:23

you're not truly exploring the topic.

Lee: 00:18:26

I do think there are some helpful things you can do to show your listening,

Lee: 00:18:32

and it isn't a tick box, Oh, I do this, but I'm not really listening.

Lee: 00:18:37

If you do things like summarize what you've heard.

Lee: 00:18:42

Um, Potentially paraphrasing, but you've gotta be really careful with that cuz

Lee: 00:18:46

if you put words in their mouths that they didn't say, you can quite quickly

Lee: 00:18:51

lose that connection that you'll build and they won't feel listened to.

Lee: 00:18:55

It could be asking further questions like you said, and start to probe and explore,

Lee: 00:18:59

but making sure they're open questions and not closing down the conversation.

Lee: 00:19:03

Sometimes it's about not saying anything and just letting that other person get

Lee: 00:19:08

off the chest, whatever it is that's, they need to vent and you don't show

Lee: 00:19:13

any judgment or attachment if you don't actually participate in the discussion.

Lee: 00:19:18

And then I think there's also you, you need to be mindful of your

Lee: 00:19:23

behaviors and your body language.

Lee: 00:19:24

So are you fidgeting whilst that person's talking?

Lee: 00:19:27

Are you multitasking?

Lee: 00:19:29

Are you not making eye contact as they, as they talk to you?

Lee: 00:19:32

What's your face saying?

Lee: 00:19:33

All of those things are really important parts of a conversation

Lee: 00:19:38

and for people feeling listened to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:41

And, and I feel like quite a lot of that links with sort of empathy

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:44

and the conversation we've had before around emotional intelligence as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:48

And I think people who are highly emotionally intelligent can often be

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:54

perceived to be better listeners because they are, all of those sorts of things are

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:58

coming naturally to them in terms of the interactions that they have with people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:02

Loved your point about sometimes it's just about letting people vent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:06

It's not even about having a two-way conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:08

And I, I remember a, a point in time many years back in my career now where

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:13

we, um, were taking on a new service and we had to have staff transfer into our

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:18

organization and we held listening events.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:20

And the first event I attended, gosh, I was totally, I don't think I was surprised

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:26

cuz I knew there would be a level of hostility, but it was just like, We'd

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

gone in with an agenda that we wanted to talk about and get feedback on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:34

And actually before we could even get to that point, people's

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:37

frustrations and anxieties and worries about what might happen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:41

You know, were all bubbling there on the surface and it was really obvious to me

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

in that room that we weren't gonna be able to, to have the conversation we'd intended

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:50

to, but actually that it is accepting that that's okay and, And I remember

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

saying to a group of people it was in the world's smallest room in the top of a pub,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

weirdly, which is why I remember it, where the chairs were all set out and there was

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:02

hardly enough space to stand at the front.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:03

And I was like, These people are so close to me and they're really angry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:07

And I just remember saying, Look, let's just have some time now for you to

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:11

say what you, what you need to say and what you want to get off your chest.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:15

That was the words I used, which is why what you said resonated.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:18

And actually that was really powerful because although people started in

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:22

some in a frustrated place, some in an angry place mostly coming from anxiety.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:27

By the time we'd spent time together and just allowed

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:30

people to share how they felt.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:32

They actually said at the end, Thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:34

We haven't had the opportunity ever to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

We just feel like a group of staff, who keep being passed from pillar to

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:40

post and nobody really cares about us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:43

And actually we really feel that you valued us by giving

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:46

us that space to share.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:47

So that, you know, is really important, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:50

Doing that read in the room and and working out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:53

How are you gonna get a, a positive outcome from something which

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

might not be the outcome you, you intended for when you went in?

Lee: 00:21:59

And it's interesting because I don't know that situation, but my, my

Lee: 00:22:04

assumption would be that maybe past leaders who've tried to go in and talk,

Lee: 00:22:09

they've, they have tried to talk at, and they've made assumptions about the

Lee: 00:22:13

characters they're talking to and how they'll respond to it, which is why that

Lee: 00:22:16

hostility is built and built and built.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:18

It's interesting I was in another conversation at work today

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:21

where we were talking about sometimes trying to shift that culture and it was

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

about being more compassionate in the workplace, but to demonstrate and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:29

be more compassionate sometimes there's a reconciliation that needs to happen

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:33

with people's previous experiences.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

And again, it was about that you can say things, but actually if you don't fully

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:39

embrace and allow people to bring out that feeling of their past experiences.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:44

You're never gonna be in a place where you'll truly

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:46

engage and have a conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:48

So we talked about this earlier around an important part of demonstrating

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

that you've listened is actually taking action on what you've heard . So for me

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:57

that feels like a really important part of being a good listener as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:02

How do we do that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:03

What should we do with what we hear?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:04

As a leader, we're gonna hear a lot.

Lee: 00:23:07

Mm mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:08

If we are in listening mode, we are hearing a lot.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:10

So what do we do with what we hear and, and how do we manage

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:13

that in our leadership roles?

Lee: 00:23:16

There isn't a one size fits all solution I'm afraid of.

Lee: 00:23:19

I, I'd be a millionaire if I could figure out what that was,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:22

you wouldn't be sat here on a podcast with me talking about it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

You'd, you'd have your own.

Lee: 00:23:27

but I do think there are systems that you need to put in place to help

Lee: 00:23:31

you filter and sort everything that you hear that are bespoke, I suppose

Lee: 00:23:37

to the questions going back to like my original point, the questions

Lee: 00:23:40

that you're seeking to answer.

Lee: 00:23:42

I think you can't promise that you're gonna fix everything

Lee: 00:23:46

or respond to everything.

Lee: 00:23:47

And normally you'll find that themes will come out of the discussions

Lee: 00:23:53

or conversations that you're having that will either create

Lee: 00:23:57

action points or point you in the direction of doing some further work.

Lee: 00:24:03

So there might be some low hanging fruit that you can deal with there

Lee: 00:24:07

and then, , those quick wins that help build confidence in people that

Lee: 00:24:12

you are listening whilst you then focus on the bigger strategic stuff.

Lee: 00:24:18

And then you'll, you've probably got those anomalies that requires your

Lee: 00:24:21

personal judgment on who you think the right person is, potentially,

Lee: 00:24:27

what the ramifications are if you do take action or don't take action.

Lee: 00:24:33

So a lot of it's down to your personal.

Lee: 00:24:36

What's the question you're trying to answer as a leader and how does it

Lee: 00:24:40

feed into the bigger picture of, of, of work and some of your personal judgment?

Lee: 00:24:45

I think you need to be clear about the poop.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:52

So great clarity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:53

Clarity of purpose.

Lee: 00:24:55

Yes.

Lee: 00:24:55

You need to be clear about the purpose and your process of listening.

Lee: 00:24:59

So are you formally listening?

Lee: 00:25:02

Is it something informal?

Lee: 00:25:04

Is it something that could be fed into existing mechanisms?

Lee: 00:25:06

Cause your organization will already have some, Um, do you have a process

Lee: 00:25:12

of feeding back to individuals about stuff that you've heard or monitoring

Lee: 00:25:17

if you've passed it on to someone else?

Lee: 00:25:19

Because that can be a real integrity issue for you if it looks like you've passed

Lee: 00:25:22

the buck and, and nothing's happened.

Lee: 00:25:25

When the work I do with, with new leaders and when they start job, for

Lee: 00:25:29

example, I always recommend that they purposely do some form of listening

Lee: 00:25:34

exercise, and always say, Be clear on the questions you want to be answered.

Lee: 00:25:40

Be open about what your process is gonna be.

Lee: 00:25:42

Don't take things at face value.

Lee: 00:25:44

We need to triangulate and test what you are hearing.

Lee: 00:25:48

Then pick some quick wins, and the rest of it starts to form your

Lee: 00:25:51

strategic narrative and priorities.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:54

I'm just reflecting on what you've said about, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:56

passing the buck and that you might be asking other people to take action on

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

something because it sits in their remit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:02

And I think there is something really important for you as a leader to, to

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:07

really have worked up and understood and had, have conversations with other

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:11

people who might be tasked with taking the action based on the things that you hear.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:16

And, and I have had examples in organizations that I've worked in

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:19

where not having those relationships and connections and conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:23

has potentially backfired.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:25

So, for example, one of the organizations I worked in had to sort of ask the chief

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:30

exec kind of scheme, and the chief exec was very much like, you know, whatever

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:34

you ask for, I'll deliver for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:36

And it's like, Oh, that's really not setting the right expectation in

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:39

tone

Lee: 00:26:40

rise and give me free parking

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:42

yeah, exactly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:43

But then, but then some of it was, was not massive, big things like that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:47

But actually because, um, people were going directly to the chief exec with

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:51

probably, Very individual personal things that have happened in their team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:56

The chief exec didn't have that background of and context of like why

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:00

a certain decision might have been taken that, that somebody maybe doesn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:04

like, and then was almost reversing those decisions by just saying,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:08

Well, yes, of course you can do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:09

And yes, of course you can have this and take I one of them, take 20

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:13

days off even though you've got no leave left to walk the Great Wall of

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:16

China without really thinking about the implications for other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

So now it's like, well, now we're not being consistent with the way

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:24

we are applying some things in this organization, which is creating inequity

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:29

and unfairness for people, and you are undermining other leaders in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:32

organization who've taken a different decision because you've been almost too

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:36

quick to respond to what you've heard.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

Rather than doing that bit of investigating to kind of go,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:42

Okay, what's the context before I decide what action to take?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:45

So I think sometimes, as much as I've said, for me, the taking action bit is, is

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:50

a really important element of listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

Doing that in a knee jerk way can can actually undo quite a lot of good.

Lee: 00:27:56

But demonstrating you've listened and taken action could

Lee: 00:27:59

be as simple as saying to someone, I've, I've heard what you've said.

Lee: 00:28:03

I'm gonna show some empathy and this is now what I'm going to do to

Lee: 00:28:08

try and make sure that your query or whatever is responded to, I'm

Lee: 00:28:13

gonna go to this person and then they will look into it or whatever.

Lee: 00:28:17

So it, it could be about signaling your intent for someone else

Lee: 00:28:20

to deal with it on your behalf.

Lee: 00:28:22

That doesn't mean you've, you've not listened, but it's how you handle that.

Lee: 00:28:26

I think that's really important.

Lee: 00:28:27

I'd say the other things that you can do to show you've listened so

Lee: 00:28:32

that playing back what you've heard.

Lee: 00:28:35

But also like the use of storytelling.

Lee: 00:28:37

We did that episode about storytelling.

Lee: 00:28:39

I think that's a really powerful way, particularly in an organization

Lee: 00:28:44

or perhaps even to your customer group or whomever, is to tell

Lee: 00:28:48

stories of change that's happened as a result of hearing from people.

Lee: 00:28:52

Um, and that people will feel they can recognize themselves in that

Lee: 00:28:58

story, which builds that connection.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

There will be things that we hear as leaders that genuinely

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:04

we don't maybe have the authority, autonomy, power to actually act on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:09

So, you know, if I think about the fact that I work in, in the NHS part

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:13

of my day job, you know, there's always those conversations about,

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

well, actually you're not listening to us because we wanna be paid more.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:21

But as local leaders, there's very little autonomy to do very much about

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:24

that because that is a national issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:27

So How do you handle those sorts of conversations when, when you are hearing

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:31

what people have said, but you genuinely feel like you can't take the action

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:35

that, that people are requesting of?

Lee: 00:29:37

I think there are occasions where you can't take the actions.

Lee: 00:29:39

I think there will also be occasions where you won't take an action because

Lee: 00:29:42

you just don't think it's right.

Lee: 00:29:44

, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:45

Good point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:46

Very good point.

Lee: 00:29:47

So I think in, in both cases, you need to be honest about that and people

Lee: 00:29:52

might not like the response, but they're gonna respect the honesty that you bring.

Lee: 00:29:58

You might struggle with that if you are a people pleaser or you don't like

Lee: 00:30:03

confrontation, and those are skills you are gonna need to work on separately.

Lee: 00:30:07

But I think the, the most important thing is to say what you, what is

Lee: 00:30:10

within and, and outside the scope of your ability to, to do something about.

Lee: 00:30:15

And even if it fits into, let's say I was talking about the low hanging fruit,

Lee: 00:30:20

quick wins versus long, bigger strategic stuff, that's, that's quite easy to say,

Lee: 00:30:25

Look, this is what we can do here and now.

Lee: 00:30:28

And then I've heard other things from you that's really important and that's

Lee: 00:30:32

gonna play into this piece of work that we're gonna do then, and we'll come back

Lee: 00:30:36

out and talk to you in a bit more detail so you can signal to people your intent.

Lee: 00:30:41

And if you can't do something or you won't do something, be honest about why.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:45

Yeah, I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:46

Signal intent, I think is one of the things that I'm really hearing

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:50

quite strongly that resonates with me for sure in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

It feels like we're getting to that point in the episode where we are on the,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:57

giving a bit of advice, uh, top takeaways.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:00

So what would be your how-tos around how to demonstrate and

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:04

how to really listen as a leader.

Lee: 00:31:07

I think going back to how, so actually consider what are your channels

Lee: 00:31:13

and mechanisms to listen and the questions that you are seeking to answer

Lee: 00:31:16

is a really important starting point.

Lee: 00:31:19

You need to make sure you're not being too sensitive or defensive.

Lee: 00:31:23

So if you feel that is something that might come out when you are hearing things

Lee: 00:31:28

you don't like, for example, then that's potentially something you need to work on.

Lee: 00:31:33

Similarly, if you're struggling to listen properly, Or you're feeling

Lee: 00:31:38

overwhelmed with all the information and you're not quite sure what to do.

Lee: 00:31:42

But again, I think that's a signal that you perhaps need

Lee: 00:31:44

to work with someone else.

Lee: 00:31:45

And, it's a little test.

Lee: 00:31:47

Actually, I did this when I did my coach training and we had to

Lee: 00:31:50

have a conversation with someone.

Lee: 00:31:53

But not talk and we just had to let the other person fill the space.

Lee: 00:31:58

And you, when you have permission not to respond, it makes you listen

Lee: 00:32:05

in a completely different way.

Lee: 00:32:06

So I, you know, I'm not suggesting that you go out to your next town

Lee: 00:32:10

hall, staff q and a session, just stand there staring at people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:15

like some sort of episode of a weird Netflix series.

Lee: 00:32:18

Be clear that's what you're gonna do.

Lee: 00:32:20

But have a conversation with someone where you actually, your objective

Lee: 00:32:25

is not to reply or respond in any way and see what it does to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:30

I guess for me, in terms of just adding to that, there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:32

something for me about being present.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:34

So if you are going to, to be in listening mode and you are actively seeking out

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:39

the views of others, you must be present in that space and show that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:44

present, you're not being distracted by other things going on around you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:47

You're not sat there checking your phone, uh, whilst you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:50

having those conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:52

Allow people to have that space as you've said, and and share

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:56

what they want you to hear.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:58

For sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:58

And I think there's just something for me about being curious.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:01

Don't always, some of the things we've talked about here is about

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:04

always taking things on face value.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:06

When you're having some of those conversations, look out for those

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:10

other cues, what words people are using, and then say it from their

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:12

mouths might not quite align with maybe some of the other things we've talked

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:16

about around how you can really work out what somebody's trying to say.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:20

So be curious, dig deeper, and ask more questions would probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:24

be my, my additional takeaways.

Lee: 00:33:27

I have one further one, sorry.

Lee: 00:33:28

Which is, I think the whole conversation that we've had around listening and

Lee: 00:33:32

hearing is actually just a metaphor to paying attention to all the things,

Lee: 00:33:37

whether it's written stuff that's being said to you, whether it's

Lee: 00:33:41

things that you are visually seeing.

Lee: 00:33:43

It's not necessarily everything that comes through your ears,

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:46

Wish people could see the face Lee's just pulled at the end

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:49

of that, but I knew what you meant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:51

And she pointed at her own ears just in case we didn't know where they were.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:54

So what an apt way to end an episode about listening.