Developing your leadership brand

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

I'm already in my head going, what if somebody tells you are a Twix or

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

one of those chocolate bars where it's two bars in one packet, cuz is that some

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

sort of split personality type leadership?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:09

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:10

This so interesting.

Lee: 00:00:52

Hello, and welcome to episode six of how to take the lead.

Lee: 00:00:56

We are currently sat in our respective offices.

Lee: 00:01:00

Be moaning the

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

I know, I'm sure on one episode that I was moaning

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

about the fact that the weather was horrible, not warm enough.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:09

And now I'm honestly the opposite way of like being in a sauna.

Lee: 00:01:14

weather as you do, cuz we're British.

Lee: 00:01:15

Yes, I love, I absolutely love British summertime it is my

Lee: 00:01:16

favorite time of the year.

Lee: 00:01:18

But my house is normally cold.

Lee: 00:01:19

I'm wearing a sweatshirt.

Lee: 00:01:21

It wasn't until I locked myself in this office that I realised that was

Lee: 00:01:25

not the right fashion move for today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

See, I'm more of an autumn winter girl.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:30

I like a cosy jumper, but anyway that's a whole other episode, probably

Lee: 00:01:34

it's all part of our personal brand though.

Lee: 00:01:36

Isn't it?

Lee: 00:01:36

And that's the topic we want to tackle today.

Lee: 00:01:40

And we've talked a bit about clothing before, but today's focus is on personal

Lee: 00:01:45

branding and how much attention you should be paying to it as a leader.

Lee: 00:01:51

And this is something that I've been having quite a lot of

Lee: 00:01:54

conversations with people about.

Lee: 00:01:57

I ran a workshop a few weeks ago with a group of NHS senior leaders.

Lee: 00:02:01

And I've been talking a lot to people on my social media and in the

Lee: 00:02:04

real life world about the concept of branding and personal branding.

Lee: 00:02:09

And it strikes me that it's feels like quite a relatively new concept

Lee: 00:02:14

in the leadership world that people are now starting to cotton onto.

Lee: 00:02:18

Some people think it's a really gross yucky thing.

Lee: 00:02:21

But the fact of the matter is it's not new.

Lee: 00:02:25

We all have a personal brand.

Lee: 00:02:27

We always have done.

Lee: 00:02:28

Whether you like the term or you don't like the term, you can't get away from

Lee: 00:02:32

the fact that you have a personal brand.

Lee: 00:02:34

It's just never perhaps had that name before.

Lee: 00:02:36

I look at personal brand as it being your reputation really.

Lee: 00:02:41

And perhaps that's the phrase that we would've traditionally

Lee: 00:02:44

used many years ago.

Lee: 00:02:45

It's what you say and what you do.

Lee: 00:02:48

It's how other people perceive you.

Lee: 00:02:50

So for me, I think as a leader is absolutely right that you

Lee: 00:02:54

have that awareness and work on the development of your brand.

Lee: 00:02:58

Carrie Ann, I don't know whether you've had much awareness or

Lee: 00:03:02

considered your personal brand as you've progressed in your career?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:06

So you took the words right out of my mouth Lee because

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

no no, it's all, it's good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:11

Cuz we are aligned in our thinking, which is nice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:13

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:13

So yeah, I would say earlier on in my career, I probably was aware of it,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:19

but I probably didn't refer to it or think about it as my personal brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:24

If I'm honest with you, I think I was more aware of my reputation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:29

So my sort of personal and professional reputation within my field, within

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:35

my organization, with my peers.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:37

And I think for me, it was definitely more about, how am I being perceived?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:41

Am I demonstrating what I'm good at, what I'm skilled at, how am I

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:46

communicating and sharing that with other people and showing other people

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:50

what I'm about and what I can do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:52

And I guess for me, you talked about, progressing through your career,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:55

do you become aware of having a personal brand and probably for me

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:59

the first time I was really thinking about, my personal reputation,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:04

professional reputation was probably when I started to go for promotions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:08

And so that's probably the point in time where I considered it more.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:11

So it's not to say that I didn't have one cuz as you said, I think as

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

individuals, we all have a personal brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

We're perceived in certain ways, but I think that for me was probably when I

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:22

first started to proactively think about my reputation or my personal brand and I

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:27

think what really started to shine a light on it more for me was when I was going

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:33

for promotions within the same team and organization, because I think what shone

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:38

a light on my reputation and how I was perceived for me was how I negotiated and

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

worked around and worked with colleagues who perhaps perceived me in my former role

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:52

and then I would get a promotion and then it's like repositioning yourself in terms.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:57

Yeah, it's a bit of a reset.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

So there's obviously all the bits about you that, your values, your behaviors

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:03

that are true to you, but there is something about having to consciously

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:07

think about how am I positioning myself here, because actually everyone at

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:12

that point in my career that I worked with saw me in as me in a certain role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:16

And so it challenged me to work differently and think differently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:19

I think about, let's call it brand now, cause that's what we're talking

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:23

about my brand in terms of, how I wanted to be perceived in this

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:27

new role in the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:29

And I think that probably now I've progressed in my career and

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:33

worked in lots of other places I think that feels slightly more

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:36

challenging to do than when you are a new person going into a new place.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:40

I think that reset when you are already somewhere perhaps feels a little bit more

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:44

difficult, but yeah, I dunno what your experience has been Lee in terms of your

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:48

career progression and personal brand?

Lee: 00:05:51

Yeah.

Lee: 00:05:51

I would say mine's been pretty similar to you in the sense of, I

Lee: 00:05:56

certainly bought more awareness to my own brand at the point that I was

Lee: 00:05:59

considering my positioning within an organization for a promotion

Lee: 00:06:04

or, moving to a new organization.

Lee: 00:06:06

But I've always had a real interest in how people position themselves.

Lee: 00:06:13

And I used to read what I still do read lots of history books, entertainment

Lee: 00:06:17

books, politics books, and you see how different celebrities were made.

Lee: 00:06:25

And I

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:25

It's cringing

Lee: 00:06:26

I am cringing

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:27

celebrity.

Lee: 00:06:28

well, I don't think they're perhaps the right words because I don't

Lee: 00:06:33

necessarily see some of these people that I'm thinking of are celebrities per se,

Lee: 00:06:36

but it's that sense of how people step into what it is they want to be known for.

Lee: 00:06:41

And obviously you, it goes all the way back to early Hollywood years.

Lee: 00:06:46

And you think about people who renamed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:48

in the public eye..

Lee: 00:06:49

renamed themselves.

Lee: 00:06:50

Marilyn Monroe is just one example that comes to mind, had a completely

Lee: 00:06:54

different name, John Wayne different name.

Lee: 00:06:56

So they really thought about what their personal brand was.

Lee: 00:06:58

So it's always been something that's quite interesting to me.

Lee: 00:07:02

And I think again, if you look at nowadays with social media, that's

Lee: 00:07:08

almost redefined what people are known for and how they become known.

Lee: 00:07:14

And obviously we are looking it through, I'm talking about it now through the

Lee: 00:07:17

lens of celebrity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't translate into that idea of

Lee: 00:07:24

anybody being really conscious of who they are and what they stand for and

Lee: 00:07:28

what they want others to know about them.

Lee: 00:07:32

And I think when I moved into more senior leadership roles, I started to more

Lee: 00:07:38

actively work on that with other leaders.

Lee: 00:07:41

It wasn't just about my own personal brand, but it was about helping leaders

Lee: 00:07:46

work on their own leadership strategies.

Lee: 00:07:49

And you would naturally end up covering things about their personal brand.

Lee: 00:07:54

So it was a really, subtle shift, I would say into my psyche of what branding

Lee: 00:08:00

was and that leadership brand, but something I find absolutely fascinating.

Lee: 00:08:04

I always say when I work with leaders, that it is, as you say

Lee: 00:08:08

that personal brand, the thing that makes you stand out to employers,

Lee: 00:08:11

if you're going through a new job.

Lee: 00:08:13

It's also what helps you to connect with your staff or your stakeholders

Lee: 00:08:18

and take them on that journey with you?

Lee: 00:08:21

So I do believe that there are real, tangible benefits of knowing

Lee: 00:08:25

and nurturing your personal brand.

Lee: 00:08:27

But I was gonna ask you how seriously do you think leaders should be

Lee: 00:08:31

taking their personal brand?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:33

I think super seriously, you've touched on some of the reasons why.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:37

But for me, it's about how you build trust, how you engage with

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:41

key stakeholders as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:44

We talk about this a lot don't we on how to take the lead around a lot

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:47

of what we do as leaders is about relationships, the relationships that

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:51

we build, the relationships that we want to have the ones we need to nurture.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:56

So for me, I think your personal brand as a leader has a really big impact

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

on that because actually how people perceive you will impact and influence

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

how much they trust you, how much they want to engage with you as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:09

I think it's interesting, you talked about recruitment as well,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:12

I think that you talked about recruitment, people recruiting you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:15

But I also think as a leader in an organization, your personal brand can

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

have an impact on who wants to come and work for your organization and the

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

recruitment of people, into your team and organization, because you can find that

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:28

people really express a desire to want to work with certain leaders because of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:33

reputation and the brand that they've got.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:36

And that can be a real influence and a real draw for people to

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:39

want to go and work somewhere where there's a particular leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:42

And I guess on the flip side those.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:44

People whose personal brands don't resonate so much with people is

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:48

a reason for somebody to choose not to go and work somewhere.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:50

So I think really seriously, I think that, there's so many different facets

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:54

to this and so many different impacts that I think it would be silly not

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:58

to consider and not to take your personal brand seriously as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:02

And I'm sure we might touch on this a bit later in the conversation, but the points

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:07

you made earlier about social media, I think that's really interesting, because I

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:11

think that can have a real impact in terms of your brand as a leader and how you want

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

to come across and how people find stuff out about you and what you stand for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:21

But I expect we'll get onto that in a bit Lee.

Lee: 00:10:24

I read a report recently, that was really interesting, and it said

Lee: 00:10:27

something like 70% of employees.

Lee: 00:10:31

This is in the UK, believe that the CEO reputation is an

Lee: 00:10:35

important retention factor.

Lee: 00:10:37

So for them to stay in an organization, as you've just said, and almost half

Lee: 00:10:42

of staff look at a chief executive's social media account when they're

Lee: 00:10:46

considering joining a company.

Lee: 00:10:48

So you are completely right on that fact.

Lee: 00:10:50

I think it's an amazing, it's amazingly undervalued part of your

Lee: 00:10:57

brand and reputation completely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:59

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

And I think we all get, do the Google search don't we, when we're going

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:04

for new jobs or when we're recruiting people into our teams, we look them

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:07

up, find out a bit more about them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:09

And I think probably individuals would think it was quite unusual

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:14

for senior leaders in organizations, particularly ones with high profile

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:19

not to have a presence on some of these social media platforms, but I

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:22

think, we've touched on this in other episodes about some of the perils and

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:26

pitfalls of how you represent yourself on social media and how you use it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:30

So I think that opens up, like you say, a whole other dynamic when we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:33

thinking about leadership brand.

Lee: 00:11:35

Yeah, I think the more savvy of leaders understand that point about

Lee: 00:11:42

having awareness and working on all the assets that form part of their personal

Lee: 00:11:48

brand and that they recognize that it's an important part of their role.

Lee: 00:11:53

It's an important way to build connection.

Lee: 00:11:55

It helps to differentiate them from other people.

Lee: 00:11:59

And I think some people, we are not saying you have to work on your personal brand

Lee: 00:12:03

because your personal brand's working for you, whether you are aware of it or not.

Lee: 00:12:07

But I think it's about the savviness and the message it shows if you're

Lee: 00:12:11

not leaning into some of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:13

I think that's a really good insight though, Lee, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

I'm sure there would be some people out there who, until you've said that

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:19

perhaps haven't quite twigged that exactly, as you've said, your personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

brand is out there working for you, whether you are nurturing it and

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:26

loving it and developing it or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:28

And I think, sometimes when you have that discussion with senior leaders,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:31

people look a bit frightened like they haven't quite realized that, oh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:36

actually I already have a personal brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:38

Whether I'm actively working on it or, talking about it or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:41

So I think that can be an eye opener, I think for leaders to realize.

Lee: 00:12:45

And I think those who tend to shy away from the b word or want to even get

Lee: 00:12:53

into the discussions, it tends to stem from quite a common criticism that I hear

Lee: 00:12:58

is that people feel really uncomfortable with positioning themselves as a brand.

Lee: 00:13:03

It can seem quite a manipulative move to make, that notion of I need to

Lee: 00:13:09

create a false identity or a narrative about who I am in order for me to

Lee: 00:13:14

achieve what it is I want to achieve.

Lee: 00:13:16

And I think that's BS really.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:18

Oh, no, I'm already chomping at the bit about that and I'm gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:21

get on my soapbox about this false identities, creating a new narrative.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:25

Oh my God.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:25

I'm gonna lose the plot in a minute.

Lee: 00:13:27

But some people do think that, and I do think to be fair to them

Lee: 00:13:31

that there are people and industries that give personal brand a poor name.

Lee: 00:13:36

If you look at our beloved prime minister and the caricature he's

Lee: 00:13:41

created of himself over the years,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:47

Oh, if only the listeners could have seen your face then Lee.

Lee: 00:13:48

But even that term, spin doctored, the people who've created those celebrity

Lee: 00:13:53

images over the years, but I don't think however, versus is sitting on this

Lee: 00:13:58

podcast and saying to people, listening to it, that's what you need to do.

Lee: 00:14:03

That isn't what we are about.

Lee: 00:14:04

We, I definitely don't agree with the approach.

Lee: 00:14:06

I know you are nodding in agreement vigorously.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:11

No.

Lee: 00:14:12

I think people are starting to get wise to that.

Lee: 00:14:16

But then that does bring that element of distrust in because there is a

Lee: 00:14:20

greater awareness of some of those manipulative techniques that people

Lee: 00:14:23

can use particularly with social media.

Lee: 00:14:26

So I don't think we're here going you need to be something you're not, for me

Lee: 00:14:32

it's more about bringing awareness to who you are and what you offer, but I'm

Lee: 00:14:37

gonna unleash you on your soapbox now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:39

yeah, that's the thing for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:41

Isn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:41

And again, it's a, it is one of the strong themes in how to take

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:45

the lead and something that we talk about together separately just

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:49

about that, leaders needing to be authentic and acting with integrity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:53

So we are absolutely not, when we're talking about leadership brand,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:57

talking about creating some sort of new identity for yourself or a

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:01

social media account where you post stuff, that's not, like you say, not

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:05

entirely factual and more fiction.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:08

That is absolutely the opposite of what we are trying to express here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:12

I think we are definitely talking about, utilizing the channels and the methods

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

that you've got available to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:19

Just to show up and demonstrate who you are and what you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:23

about and what you stand for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:25

What are your values as a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:27

What's your vision as a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:29

What is it that you are doing to help other people in your leadership role?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:33

What are you all about?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:35

It's the integrity and the authenticity piece for me, that's really important

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

because I, I think I've said this before, I don't believe that we

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:42

turn up to work at eight o'clock or whatever time we turn up to work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:45

And we are at a completely different person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:47

We are fully fledged, rounded individuals.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:49

And actually our experience is outside of work life will have

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:52

as much impact on the way that we lead as our experiences in work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:56

So I think it's, for me, it's more about getting comfortable, communicating some

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:01

of that with the people that matter.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

And you're communicating it to those people who you are trying to build trusted

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:07

relationships with to support you to lead, that's probably how I feel about it.

Lee: 00:17:07

I think if you look at what are the components that make up personal brand

Lee: 00:17:12

taking it right back to the beginning?

Lee: 00:17:13

I think you've absolutely hit the name on the head in terms of is your vision, your

Lee: 00:17:17

values it's for me, it's that expertise.

Lee: 00:17:20

So what are you known for?

Lee: 00:17:23

It's how you position yourself and that is for me having true clarity

Lee: 00:17:28

and knowing who your audience is.

Lee: 00:17:30

That's not about trying to pretend to be something different.

Lee: 00:17:33

It's about going, I know who I'm talking to and what they want to hear

Lee: 00:17:37

from me, and I'm gonna answer the things that are important to them.

Lee: 00:17:40

So that's what I mean by positioning.

Lee: 00:17:42

I think it's how your personality and your tone of voice and all of that

Lee: 00:17:47

comes across and knowing, am I gonna be a sweary Mary, or am I gonna be

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:53

A prim Pamela.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:54

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:57

I was trying to think what the opposite of a sweary Mary might be.

Lee: 00:18:01

But all of those things make up your brand.

Lee: 00:18:04

And then as you say, it's how you communicate that and engage with people.

Lee: 00:18:08

And so I do think it is about awareness and enhancing what you've

Lee: 00:18:13

got for other people, but there is an intentionality about it as well.

Lee: 00:18:17

So I always say your personal brand is part and parcel of a broader strategy

Lee: 00:18:23

that you are working on as a leader.

Lee: 00:18:25

So the elements of your brand that you might want to elevate and

Lee: 00:18:29

illustrate might change depending on what your ultimate goal is.

Lee: 00:18:33

I talk to people about having a personal brand statement, for example, how can

Lee: 00:18:37

they quickly explain who they are, what they offer, not just what their job

Lee: 00:18:42

title is, which is what people often go to when they introduce themselves.

Lee: 00:18:46

And the positioning of yourself might be really different if you

Lee: 00:18:48

are going for a new job, say, then if you are leading a takeover.

Lee: 00:18:53

So I think that there is a strategy and intention in how you nurture and build

Lee: 00:18:59

your brand, but it comes from a part of knowing yourself, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:05

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:05

And I think there's something you are, I'm listening to what you're saying

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:08

there around the sort of nuances.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:09

You are the person that you are, you've got the skills, the experience that you've

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:13

got all the unique things that you bring, but like you say, think it's probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:17

when we use words, like positioning that those people who are a bit fearful and

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:21

a bit like, oh no, this isn't for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

That's probably when they start to think, oh, we're manipulating things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:26

And actually we are not, are we, when we're talking about positioning we are

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:29

talking about how do you have to show up in different circumstances and you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:33

quite right, going for a new job, you would position yourself completely

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:36

differently from, a much more sensitive sort of takeover or merger situation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:41

And I think just, as a leader, it's about understanding how you adapt the

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:46

way in which you position yourself, but not what you stand for potentially.

Lee: 00:19:50

No, no completely.

Lee: 00:19:52

So if someone's listening and they're going I need to do something with

Lee: 00:19:55

my brand, where do you start if you are, if you're starting that work

Lee: 00:20:00

on what is my leadership brand?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:03

I think there's definitely something for me around

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:05

that clarity piece about your vision and your values and understanding

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:08

what your values actually are.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:10

And there are quite a lot of really good exercises out there that people can get.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:13

Even if you just look online around how to start thinking about your core values

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:18

and how you might articulate those.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:20

Because I think if you haven't thought about that before, that can feel like

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:24

a bit of a strange exercise to do, but taking that time to reflect on that,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:28

and some of that's you're just looking through lists of like descriptive

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:31

words and picking the ones that you think most resonate with what you

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

stand for and what your sort of core beliefs and values are, can really

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:38

help you start to think about okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:40

Who am I as a person?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:41

What do I stand for?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

And I think there's also something in that piece around maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

asking some other people as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:47

If you've got a trusted network of people and you are really new to this

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:52

and you are thinking, oh, I dunno what it means to think about my brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

What am I all about?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:56

What are my unique things that I bring sometimes that can be quite difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:00

to do for yourself because feels a bit awkward and a bit cringy and

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

actually it's back to the leadership superpowers, isn't it that we were

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:07

talking about, some of the things that you are really good at just for you is

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

every day, this is just how I operate.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:12

And it sometimes takes another person to help identify for you that actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:17

that's different and unique to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:19

So I think don't be afraid to work with your network, to do some of that

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:23

reflection piece and start thinking about how you are perceived as a leader.

Lee: 00:21:28

I completely agree.

Lee: 00:21:29

I do this a lot in workshops and stuff that I do, and I get them to do quite

Lee: 00:21:33

a fun exercise, which is to ask other people what chocolate bar they'd be

Lee: 00:21:39

or who would play them in a movie.

Lee: 00:21:40

So it's it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:41

The chocolate bar.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:42

I love that one.

Lee: 00:21:43

But it sounds like a stupid question, but actually it throws up some really

Lee: 00:21:47

interesting insights that you wouldn't get if you simply ask someone what are

Lee: 00:21:50

my strengths and weaknesses because they have to explain why they think you're a,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:55

I'm already in my head going, what if somebody tells you are a Twix or

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:58

one of those chocolate bars where it's two bars in one packet, cuz is that some

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:01

sort of split personality type leadership?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:04

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:05

This so interesting.

Lee: 00:22:06

You've got a hard layer in a soft middle or something, it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:11

This is excellent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:12

I'm loving this.

Lee: 00:22:13

so yeah.

Lee: 00:22:14

You could ask something that is a non-attributable thing to you.

Lee: 00:22:19

So it could be breakfast cereal if you don't eat chocolate, it

Lee: 00:22:22

could be who's gonna play me in a Hollywood version of my life.

Lee: 00:22:26

It's a fun question.

Lee: 00:22:27

You'll be amazed by the answers that you get.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:29

You've just got to not take offense to the answers.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:32

If you don't like what people say, you have to be open to it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

Isn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

And that's part of your leadership journey, but I'm gonna ask listeners

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:39

to the podcast to maybe across their socials or wherever, maybe leave a

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:43

few comments about which chocolate bars they think you and I are based

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:47

on what they've heard on the podcast.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:49

Are we brave enough to hear the answers Lee

Lee: 00:22:54

If you don't say I'm a Tony's Choca lonely, I'm gonna be

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:57

I'm gonna be really, see that you've got to be open to the

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:00

feedback that it's all coming from a place of growth and development.

Lee: 00:23:05

So I think having that you can make it fun.

Lee: 00:23:08

It doesn't need to be the usual type of questions, but

Lee: 00:23:10

it can bring a lot of insight.

Lee: 00:23:12

I also think that there's that self reflection piece that you need to do.

Lee: 00:23:17

What do I want to be known for?

Lee: 00:23:20

What are other people saying about me?

Lee: 00:23:23

What am I passionate about and where does that mean I want to go in my career?

Lee: 00:23:27

How do I want to make people feel when they interact with

Lee: 00:23:31

me are all really important questions you could ask yourself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:36

I think really helpful.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

And I think that has to be where it starts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

Doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:40

That reflection piece to really get you in the right frame of mind, to think about

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:44

your personal brand and how people are perceiving you versus how you maybe hoped

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:50

you were being perceived and it might throw up some really interesting things

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:53

for you to consider and think about.

Lee: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Lee: 00:23:56

Now we've seen those leaders who feel like they might need to reinvent

Lee: 00:24:01

themselves, maybe worried about what their brand is or they don't like how

Lee: 00:24:06

people have perceived them when they've done their little exercises or whatever.

Lee: 00:24:10

What can you actually do if you are in that position going this isn't

Lee: 00:24:14

who I want people to think I am.

Lee: 00:24:16

Where do you go?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:17

Yeah that's a really good question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:19

And I've been pondering over this in terms of what advice I would

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:22

give, and I can only give advice from my own experience on this one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:26

And I feel like an opportunity for me to think differently about how I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:30

perceived as a leader was setting up my own business alongside having my role

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:34

as a leader in an NHS organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:37

And I think for me that did throw up some challenges as well as opportunity

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:42

and I had to work through those challenges first, in terms of, I was

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:45

a bit fearful for, what will people in my day job think of me now I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:50

decided that I want to set up a small business and mentor coms professionals.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:54

But I think that also came with an opportunity for me to reflect on the fact

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:59

that I still stand for the same things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:01

My values are still the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:03

So I'll use the, one of my strong, core beliefs and

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:06

values is around collaboration.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:08

And actually I do that a lot in my leadership role in my day job, but also

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:14

in my business, there was an opportunity to do something around that as well,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:18

which might be slightly different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:19

So for me, it was less about being a different person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:23

But more about thinking that point you made earlier about

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

where am I positioning myself?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:28

Am I talking to a different group of people here that need maybe to see a

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:32

different nuance to what I'm talking about and how I'm talking about it,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:36

where I'm putting those messages.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:37

But actually fundamentally everything that I stand for is still the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:41

I'm just using them in a different space and a different sort of sphere.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:45

So there's a slightly different take on it, but actually that's more

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:49

about messaging and audience than it is about my leadership brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:53

So I'm not entirely sure if that answered your question, if I'm honest

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:56

Lee, because for me there was something about fundamentally, I think it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

quite difficult to change your values and what and what you stand for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

So I think it would be probably quite hard to just become a different

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:10

leader, if that makes sense.

Lee: 00:26:11

I don't think you can completely change who you are.

Lee: 00:26:14

You are right in that sense.

Lee: 00:26:16

I think your personality is what it is.

Lee: 00:26:19

But your behaviors you can work on.

Lee: 00:26:21

So if someone has said, oh, you're a bit loud and overbearing.

Lee: 00:26:26

If you're an extrovert, you're not gonna change the fact you're an

Lee: 00:26:28

extrovert, but you can work on the loud and overbearing bit because you

Lee: 00:26:32

can work on your listening skills.

Lee: 00:26:34

You can demonstrate how you are listening to people.

Lee: 00:26:37

And so people can feel like they are being heard.

Lee: 00:26:41

You can learn ways to catch yourself.

Lee: 00:26:44

If you think you're gonna jump in and talk over someone.

Lee: 00:26:47

These aren't perhaps overnight fixes and will be really uncomfortable for you.

Lee: 00:26:51

If there are particular traits that you do need to work on.

Lee: 00:26:56

Completely worth it, cuz it's gonna boost your connection and that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:26:59

So I think that reflection piece is really important and linking

Lee: 00:27:02

back to the bigger goal as well.

Lee: 00:27:05

So I do a lot of work with leaders who I don't know, then they've been

Lee: 00:27:09

known as one type of leader doing one type of thing and they're ready

Lee: 00:27:14

for the next stage in their career.

Lee: 00:27:15

And a bit like you with setting up your cat's pajamas business.

Lee: 00:27:20

They're like, how do I move into this space and not completely forget the

Lee: 00:27:26

legacy that I've got, but utilize the best bits of that legacy.

Lee: 00:27:30

That's gonna serve me for what I want to do so that I don't just forever

Lee: 00:27:33

get known as being that person.

Lee: 00:27:36

So I think there's two different types of ways, depending on what you, so

Lee: 00:27:39

it's, there's a kind of goal driven brand and then there's that I've

Lee: 00:27:43

had feedback about certain behaviors that are forming people's opinions

Lee: 00:27:47

of my brand that I could work on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:49

I love that it's like the modification around the behaviors

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

piece, I think is a brilliant piece of advice, Lee, and then

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:55

yeah, that goal driven bit as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:56

If.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

Like you say, coming from a slightly different place.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:59

I think when you said that there was a bit for me about really

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:02

understanding your story as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:04

So like you said, you don't lose the legacy of everything that's come before

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:07

in terms of your leadership journey, you build on that and you take the best bits

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:11

of that and take that into the next space the next step that you are moving into.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:16

But I think that probably would be one of my thoughts about what

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:18

you might want to do as a leader is actually really understand your

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:21

story and where you've come from and what's shaped how you are today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:26

Cuz I think that can be really powerful in terms of how you

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

resonate with other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:31

If you were ever speaking about, your leadership position,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:34

your leadership journey.

Lee: 00:28:36

Yeah, and I would just add that it's really important for people to

Lee: 00:28:41

remind themselves and remember this isn't about getting people to like you.

Lee: 00:28:47

So if you get what you perceive to be negative feedback, or you

Lee: 00:28:52

feel you're being perceived in a way that you don't like this isn't

Lee: 00:28:56

about trying to change it in a way that everybody suddenly likes you.

Lee: 00:28:59

Leadership isn't a personality contest.

Lee: 00:29:02

You're never going to be everybody's cup of tea and that's something

Lee: 00:29:06

you just need to deal with.

Lee: 00:29:07

If you try and be friends with everyone and try and position

Lee: 00:29:10

yourself as everyone's gotta like me, it's gonna impact your judgment.

Lee: 00:29:14

It's gonna impact your decision making.

Lee: 00:29:16

It's gonna put people off of you.

Lee: 00:29:18

So be really clear of your motivations behind why you want to change or

Lee: 00:29:22

reposition your brand as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:24

Oh, excellent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:25

Excellent advice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:26

I think you're absolutely right with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:28

It's not about everyone liking you and if that's what you think as a leader, then

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:33

I think you've probably missed the point.

Lee: 00:29:34

Yeah, completely.

Lee: 00:29:36

So we are coming to the end.

Lee: 00:29:38

There's just time for our, how to section, which is a bit of a Roundup of

Lee: 00:29:43

things we've learned in this episode.

Lee: 00:29:45

So Carrie Ann, what's your how to build a leadership brand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:50

I think my biggest how to tip would be that piece around

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:53

vision and values, and really trying to spend that time reflecting and

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:58

getting clarity on particularly your values, because I think your values

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:03

drive your behaviors completely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:05

For me, it would be, if there's exercises out there that help you do that, great.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:10

If you need to ask for some feedback from others, do that too, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:14

just I don't think we spend enough time as individuals thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:18

What are our values?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:18

Because I think that will help you position yourself and think about how

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:22

you want to come across as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:23

So that would be my top tip.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:25

How about you?

Lee: 00:30:26

Perfect.

Lee: 00:30:26

Very similar.

Lee: 00:30:27

I absolutely think vision values, making sure your link to your

Lee: 00:30:32

bigger picture is really important.

Lee: 00:30:34

And you need to do that through the reflection and by working on it.

Lee: 00:30:38

A simple exercise.

Lee: 00:30:39

What's your brand statement?

Lee: 00:30:40

How do you explain who you are and what you do in one sentence is

Lee: 00:30:44

a really great starting point to make you think, actually, who am I?

Lee: 00:30:48

What is it I do.

Lee: 00:30:49

What do I offer?

Lee: 00:30:50

That it sounds really simple, but actually it's really hard.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

Definitely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:55

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:55

Brilliant tip.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:56

Thank you, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:57

I'm think, I feel like I might have to go and revisit my personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:00

brand statement just to get perfect clarity on what I'm all about.

Lee: 00:31:04

Anyway, that's it.

Lee: 00:31:05

That's a wrap.

Lee: 00:31:06

End of episode.

Lee: 00:31:07

We will be back again in your inbox of choice next week.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:13

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:13

I'm looking forward to next week's conversation already.