Difficult conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

we followed our own structure for having a difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:02

conversation, so I've loved that we've been able to role model that and we'll

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

leave people hanging with trying to work out what word that might be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:10

That's a good Eastender style end to the episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:13

What word was it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:47

Hello and welcome to this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:52

Uh, before we get into the good stuff of this episode, I just wanted to

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:57

let people know that you can find out more about how to take the lead

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

and join our community over on our website, which is howtotakethelead.com.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

We are also now on YouTube if you want to see us as well as hear us

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

which some of you might want to, uh, we are over there on YouTube for this

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:14

series launched for series three.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

Uh, we're also on the socials, Instagram and Twitter, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:20

you can engage with us there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:21

Join the conversation and if you like what we have been talking about, we would love

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:26

for you to leave us a rating or a review and why not share the episode with someone

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:31

that you think might benefit from it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

Basically what we'd love you to do is join us on our mission to change leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

for the better in the modern world.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:40

So, um, that's the spiel over Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:42

You have waited patiently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:44

Uh, while I've gone through that, have I missed anything?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:46

And more importantly, how are you.

Lee: 00:01:49

You haven't missed anything and I'm, I'm good.

Lee: 00:01:52

I think there's some like added danger in today's recording, so if anyone

Lee: 00:01:56

that's on YouTube, um, you are gonna get a treat because I think in this

Lee: 00:02:01

episode, basically I record this episode upstairs in my office with the door

Lee: 00:02:07

closed, obviously it'd stop the little doggy coming in and jumping all over us.

Lee: 00:02:10

Um, The husband's put the heating on and um, so you're gonna see the slow

Lee: 00:02:15

progression of me turning into a tomato.

Lee: 00:02:17

I'll be like the tomato version of Violet Beauregard in uh, Charlie

Lee: 00:02:21

in the chocolate factory, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:23

I'm loving that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

I was, I wondered where this was going with the added danger.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:27

I was like, danger.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

Have we done a dangerous episode yet?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

I'm not sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:31

Um, so, okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

We will, we will look out for that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:34

Lee, I'm not sure, I can't fan you from here or do anything that's gonna be

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:37

helpful, uh, by way of body temperature.

Lee: 00:02:40

If I start stripping off,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:42

I'll just, I'll just carry on as if you are not, uh, stripping off.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:45

That's absolutely fine.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

So, um, on that note, let's get into what possibly was about to turn into

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:52

a difficult conversation of its own.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:54

Um, this episode, um, I would really like us to explore what it feels

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:59

like and how we can start to have or get better at having some of those,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

uh, more difficult conversations that we might have to have as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:09

Cause it is definitely something that comes up for me, um, with people that

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:13

I work with around how they feel in terms of having to have some of those

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:17

more challenging conversations with people and as a leader, as in life in

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:23

general, there will always be times when we will need to have those difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

and more challenging conversations that push us outside of our comfort zone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

And they might be about all sorts of different, um, kinds of circumstances.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:36

So I just wanted to talk through some of this, uh, today, if

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:40

that's all right with you, Lee.

Lee: 00:03:43

Well, would I be having a difficult conversation if I said No,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:46

Well, yeah, that was a test there to see how

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:48

you were gonna handle that one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:50

Um, so I'm glad we were on the same page with what we're gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:53

talk about, um, in this episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:54

Cause that would be really awkward, uh, if we weren't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:57

Um, and I guess for me, the obvious place to start this conversation, or it felt at

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

least felt obvious, um, from my point of view, is maybe at that individual level.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:07

So we'll probably build up as we go through the episode, but as a leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:12

you are gonna be having conversations with individuals and, uh, sometimes

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:16

they are going to be challenging.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:18

So for example, you know, you might have to deal with an individual's performance

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:23

that perhaps isn't coming up to the standard at which you would like it to be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:27

Maybe it might, might be about somebody's behaviors that you are needing to address.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:32

And one of the things that people often say to me is that they know they need

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:36

to have this difficult or challenging conversation with an individual.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:40

, but they, they're just worried that they're not gonna do it compassionately

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:44

or it's just not gonna come across as if they are being human and

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:49

having any empathy for that person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:51

So that's kind of the space I wanted to start the first

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:54

bit of the conversation from.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:55

So what are your thoughts on that, Lee?

Lee: 00:04:59

So the, the thing that I we all as humans, so let's take work out of it.

Lee: 00:05:05

But even when you're having a difficult conversation in your personal life,

Lee: 00:05:09

so often it can get to a point of conflict and tension because of how we

Lee: 00:05:13

approach the conversation to begin with.

Lee: 00:05:15

And you, you almost create this, this, you and them situation, and that's

Lee: 00:05:22

where defensiveness can creep in.

Lee: 00:05:23

And I think once you experience that, then it makes the whole anxiety around

Lee: 00:05:28

having more of the same conversations.

Lee: 00:05:31

And I think the same is is to be said when you are in a leadership

Lee: 00:05:34

role as well, thinking about how you are framing and approaching

Lee: 00:05:39

that conversation from the very off.

Lee: 00:05:40

So for me, I think it's all about how do you have conversations that

Lee: 00:05:46

are evidence based and you make it from a point about you and not them.

Lee: 00:05:51

So you're not trying to project something onto them.

Lee: 00:05:55

Cuz that's often what happens and that's where the defensiveness can come in.

Lee: 00:05:59

So I think it's really clear about, you need to kind of call

Lee: 00:06:02

it out and say what's happened?

Lee: 00:06:05

then you need to be clear on what the impact is for you.

Lee: 00:06:08

So no blame, no judgment in that, but it made me feel like, or something similar.

Lee: 00:06:16

I can't think of another word.

Lee: 00:06:16

You might use

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:17

yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:17

As, as a result of this has meant something can't happen on

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

time or whatever the thing is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:23

Yeah.

Lee: 00:06:23

And then you need to say what you want to happen in the future.

Lee: 00:06:29

Make it really tangible.

Lee: 00:06:30

Cause I think that's where we often fall down because we'll say, oh,

Lee: 00:06:36

we didn't like this and it, it, it made this happen, or whatever.

Lee: 00:06:40

And then you just leave it like the person's a mind reader.

Lee: 00:06:43

And I think there's something about boundary setting in conversations and

Lee: 00:06:46

having difficult conversations is when you can be really tangible with an

Lee: 00:06:51

evidence based from the very offset.

Lee: 00:06:54

I think you need to be clear if you've are feeling that

Lee: 00:07:00

it's a difficult conversation.

Lee: 00:07:01

You know, acknowledge that emotion from the offset.

Lee: 00:07:03

If you're finding it hard to have an honest, honest conversation, say that,

Lee: 00:07:08

let them know how you are feeling, because that actually can help the dynamic.

Lee: 00:07:11

You know, I'm, I'm finding it really difficult to, to have this conversation

Lee: 00:07:15

with you, but it's important because can really help to frame it and then go

Lee: 00:07:20

on to the evidence base so that, yeah, that's my, my view on how you would, on an

Lee: 00:07:26

individual level frame that conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:29

And I really like that because from your point of view, and you obviously

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:32

can't control how the other person is going to respond or react, but from your

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:36

point of view, approaching it with that evidence base and with the, and so in

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:40

future, or, you know, what's the, the out desired outcome from your point of view

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:44

that you're trying to achieve takes all of that emotion out of it a bit, doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:48

Cause I think sometimes when conversations with individuals can feel challenging

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:53

and then when you are in them, they feel even more challenging is because they

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:56

can feel quite emotionally charged and you, I think you have to try and find a

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

way, at least from your point of view, to take that emotion kind of out of it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:05

So that idea of being very factual I think is really helpful with kind

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:09

of just lowering that emotional kind of vibe in that conversation.

Lee: 00:08:13

Yeah, there's a, there book, you know, I love my book recommendations

Lee: 00:08:18

and it, again, it's on the leadership recommended reading list that we've,

Lee: 00:08:21

we've pulled together for this year, which you can get at howtotakethelead.com.

Lee: 00:08:25

Um, and it's called Connect and it's by, I'm looking up at my shelf now cuz I

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:31

I thought you were looking up for, looking up for inspiration.

Lee: 00:08:34

No, it's my, uh, David Bradford and Carol Robin.

Lee: 00:08:38

It's really helpful at looking at the dynamics of things like having

Lee: 00:08:44

difficult conversations, giving feedback to someone and all that, and

Lee: 00:08:47

how you break it down in a way, how you tackle perhaps when someone's not

Lee: 00:08:52

listening to what you've got to say and how you take emotions out of it.

Lee: 00:08:57

So it's, it's all about the emotional intelligence behind building

Lee: 00:09:00

that connection with someone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:02

Yeah, I think, yeah, good recommendation and good plug for

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

the reading list, so thank you Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:07

Um, but yeah, I absolutely think that kind of bringing it down, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:10

I, I liked what you said about don't make it about you, but do acknowledge

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:14

that you are potentially finding this a challenging conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:18

And I definitely know I've been in those situations and they've been conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

as well that I've probably procrastinated around having because I'm like, this is

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:27

not gonna land well, some of them have been about people not being successful

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:31

in getting promotions, for example, or, you know, really stuff that is really

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:35

meaningful for that other person's life.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:37

And actually just to acknowledge that this is gonna be a difficult conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:40

and that, and that actually what you want to do is support somebody

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:43

through that, I think is a really important way of framing some of that

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:47

conversation for the other person.

Lee: 00:09:49

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:50

So we've talked about as an individual, and we haven't gone into

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:53

loads of detail about all the various different circumstances whereby you might

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:57

find yourself having those difficult conversations, but I think people have

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:01

got the gist of, um, how you might want to frame that at an individual level.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:05

So moving it up a notch now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:08

I guess there's also, uh, those times as a leader when you're going to have to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:12

those challenging conversations, maybe with a team or a wider group of people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

So an example I might give is say you are gonna have to have a conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:21

with a team about their future in the organization, about their

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:25

performance as an entire team, about the fact that there might maybe be,

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:29

for example, a restructure coming.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:31

So you can kind of get the idea of what sorts of conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:34

might happen at the team level.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:37

, but it feels like that's a different type of conversation to have and that you might

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:41

need to consider some different things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:43

Maybe some is the same around the framing, but there might be other

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:46

things that you need to consider when you are having a challenging

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:50

conversation with that wider group.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

So what sort of things would be on your mind as you are preparing to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:55

that type of conversation as a leader?

Lee: 00:10:58

I think the main thing is that it, you can't take a one size fits

Lee: 00:11:02

all approach in how you have those conversations and, and give that feedback.

Lee: 00:11:06

You need to tailor your approach for the different people and personalities in

Lee: 00:11:11

your team and meet their different needs.

Lee: 00:11:14

And I've been in situations both giving and receiving feedback.

Lee: 00:11:19

And it can be hard, you know, not to get angry or despondent if

Lee: 00:11:23

you feel you are being unfairly lumped in with everyone else.

Lee: 00:11:26

Say for example, if there wasn't performance issue being fed back,

Lee: 00:11:30

and it almost can create that naughty school teacher and children

Lee: 00:11:34

dynamic rather than a healthy adult relationship, which is a, as a leader,

Lee: 00:11:38

that's what you're trying to nurture.

Lee: 00:11:40

You're not trying to be a parent to the people who, who you work with.

Lee: 00:11:43

So I think that's an important thing to, to take into account.

Lee: 00:11:47

And then I think often as leaders, we don't always think about what's the

Lee: 00:11:53

real outcome that we are trying to achieve and the best way of trying to

Lee: 00:11:57

connect people to achieve that outcome.

Lee: 00:12:00

And, and I think the approach is the same whether you are saying something positive

Lee: 00:12:04

or, or potentially perceived as negative.

Lee: 00:12:07

So it's about the timing, it's about the message.

Lee: 00:12:11

It's about who the best person is to deliver that message.

Lee: 00:12:14

Cause it might not always be you.

Lee: 00:12:16

It's about considering how do you deliver the message, and then recognizing that

Lee: 00:12:21

you've got the process of transmitting your message, but then you've got

Lee: 00:12:26

how others receive it and what their reaction is to that, and often we

Lee: 00:12:31

just think about what our goal is.

Lee: 00:12:34

Oh, we need to, we need to disseminate this.

Lee: 00:12:37

And we don't think, and then what or what are we trying to change?

Lee: 00:12:41

So often you might see situations where a leader will just um, say

Lee: 00:12:46

something and then disappear and not give an opportunity for discussion or

Lee: 00:12:49

questions and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:12:51

It's, it's a bit like in the social media world where they

Lee: 00:12:53

say, don't post and ghost.

Lee: 00:12:55

It's very much the same in the leadership world.

Lee: 00:12:57

You, you can't just put something out there and then not, not be

Lee: 00:13:01

willing to ha to engage in a dialogue around it, particularly if you're

Lee: 00:13:05

looking to see some kind of change as a, as a, as an outcome of it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:09

Yeah, and I think that is a really important point that you raised

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:12

there because quite often, I think because you are perceiving that this

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:16

conversation is going to be difficult, like your natural reaction might be, have

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:20

the conversation and move on, but the different needs of different people in

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:24

that group is really important, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:26

And there'll be people who need a lot longer to assimilate and come to

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:30

terms with the information that's been shared in that meeting, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:33

That then might want to check back in later.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:36

There'll be people who straight away will have loads of questions

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:40

and want to, you know, ask them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:41

And it's about that preparation time around how you're gonna manage that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:45

And are you gonna build into the time for that conversation, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:48

know, a bit of time for q and a.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:50

Are you going to build in follow up time for, so it is not a said it now

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:55

and go cuz people might wanna come back.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:57

Are you gonna have an opportunity for individuals to come and have a

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:01

conversation with a relevant person who might not feel as comfortable sharing

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:05

their thoughts in a group setting?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:06

So I absolutely think that that, um, need to put things in place to meet

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:12

the different needs of, of the people in that group is really important.

Lee: 00:14:15

and there can be stages.

Lee: 00:14:17

We, we talk a lot about engagement and the need to have pre-conversations

Lee: 00:14:21

before decision making, and I think that needs to be taken into account as well.

Lee: 00:14:25

And being really clear in the way that you are communicating at what stage

Lee: 00:14:30

you are in a conversation can be really helpful to signal that and signal how

Lee: 00:14:34

people can or can't get involved in, in taking that conversation forward.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:38

I think the Canan camp bit is really important as well, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:41

Cuz we sometimes end up in a space where actually some of the decision or some

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:46

of what's gonna happen isn't gonna be open to any level of negotiation because

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:50

that's just what is gonna be happening, but it's about being clear about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:55

So you're setting the right expectations about what people have the, um, ability

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:00

to potentially change and shape into the future, and what they absolutely might

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:04

not, for whatever reason that might be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:06

So that expectation setting for people before they go into the straight into the

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:11

conversation, I think is very important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:13

So, Good, good points made?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

I think so.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:17

Um, and I'm sure we've all found ourselves in those situations around,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:20

you know, having to have those difficult conversations with teams.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:24

I think there's something also for me, which is good, just good conversational

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:28

practice anyway, regardless of whether it's individual or um, Or

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:32

with teams, but also about checking back what you're hearing because

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:35

that conversation is very unlikely to be one way and people are going to

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

express a view about what you've said.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:41

And actually you need to check back with people that like what I think I'm hearing

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:45

you say is this just to, so that you are really clear when you walk away from that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:49

conversation about where you think people are at that moment in time in the room.

Lee: 00:15:54

Yeah.

Lee: 00:15:54

Everything we've said so far is, is almost assuming the conversation is

Lee: 00:16:00

something that happens verbally and actually a conversation can be written,

Lee: 00:16:04

it can be in lots of different ways.

Lee: 00:16:06

In, in, in however people may choose to give feedback or disseminate a message.

Lee: 00:16:11

So, um, we can't just assume, and again, that's about tailoring

Lee: 00:16:15

approaches to people and times and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:16:17

So we can't just assume a difficult conversation That is

Lee: 00:16:20

only something that happens face to face in a verbal kind of setting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:00

So you've mentioned social media already with the don't post and

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:04

ghost, which I love, and I'm not sure I've heard that before, but I like it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:08

I like it because it rhymes, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:09

Um, but um, now more than ever, as leaders, we are operating in an

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:13

environment where we are perhaps more public facing than we've been before.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:18

Um, and social media is one part of that in terms of how we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:21

showing up and how people are choosing to engage with us or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:25

But you know, we should, I imagine in our organizations be as focused

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:29

on the external world as we are our internal world, you know, focus

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:33

on our clients, our stakeholders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:36

So how do you think that impacts on how we operate when we are

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:40

communicating challenging things?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:46

I love it when a sigh comes because this is potentially gonna be a soapbox moment,

Lee: 00:17:53

So I, I mean, at risk of perhaps treading overground we've covered in,

Lee: 00:17:59

in other episodes, I think again, this is one of those areas where you are not

Lee: 00:18:04

quite prepared for how to handle this as a leader and you might falsely into a

Lee: 00:18:11

leadership position and let's be honest, it's probably a more senior leadership

Lee: 00:18:15

position where you're having to do the big outward facing piece or, or representing

Lee: 00:18:19

the organizational piece, but you might have a false sense of security or you

Lee: 00:18:25

know what you're doing because you've done it on an individual level or you've

Lee: 00:18:28

done it on a team level, and maybe you've done them in, in smaller groups,

Lee: 00:18:33

a, a lower level in your organization, and it's been almost a safer space

Lee: 00:18:37

for you to have those conversations.

Lee: 00:18:39

You might be if, if a, think about the health service, a clinician who's really

Lee: 00:18:45

used to doing one-on-one difficult conversations with people about their

Lee: 00:18:49

health results, for example, but nothing prepares you for perhaps the

Lee: 00:18:55

different context and situations that you have to have difficult conversations

Lee: 00:18:59

when you are a more senior leader.

Lee: 00:19:02

And I think that if you look at some of the scenarios that you know, you deal with

Lee: 00:19:08

as a senior leader, so suddenly you are dealing with possible Vexatious members

Lee: 00:19:14

of the public or even vexatious members of staff who, who wish to ex escalate and

Lee: 00:19:18

haven't been in a team you don't know.

Lee: 00:19:21

Um, or not even vexatious, just someone who's vocal and complains.

Lee: 00:19:24

Um, you might be having to deal with the media.

Lee: 00:19:29

You might be having to front public facing events and presenting big

Lee: 00:19:35

strategic plans for your organization that could be deemed as being unpopular.

Lee: 00:19:39

Um, and no one prepares you for that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:19:44

And I think that's one of the challenges that, that where sometimes leaders can

Lee: 00:19:50

fall down, I suppose, because they think they've, they know what to do and how to

Lee: 00:19:55

handle people because they've done it at a one-on-one and a local kind of team level.

Lee: 00:20:02

And it's just so different organizationally.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:04

Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:07

It isn't something that Get trained on necessarily or prepared for.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:11

It's just you become a leader and it's assumed that you'll know how to deal

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:15

with all of these potentially difficult conversations no matter who they're with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:19

And I think there is something more nerve-wracking, I guess, like you say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:22

you said maybe internally or at lower levels in your organization it feels

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:26

safer, but I think there is something about being in that external space,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

which does, uh, uh, rightly or wrongly make you feel maybe more nervous about

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:37

how you're having that conversation and what you might say because of

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:40

it being in the public as it were?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:42

Like it's almost like that I can't take it back.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

Although I would say that in some of our organizations that, that leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:49

are working in, obviously whatever you say into your organization has potential

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

to them be in the public domain.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

Um, but I just think it does feel like more of a, um, Yeah,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:59

just, it just feels more risky.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:01

Maybe that how I'm gonna handle this conversation publicly is potentially

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:05

going to, you know, has potential maybe to blow up or it will be there forever for

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

everyone to, to kind of look at and see if it's something on socials, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:14

So, kind of how, how can you deal with some of that nervousness?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:18

Because my, my worry is that some leaders will feel that nervousness

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:22

and then choose to retreat and not deal with the challenging issue.

Lee: 00:21:26

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:27

Probably does need to be dealt with in a more public forum.

Lee: 00:21:30

And I think there's, there's different things that at play

Lee: 00:21:33

so there's that, that scared of being trolled or becoming the, the

Lee: 00:21:38

hate figure, canceled, whatever.

Lee: 00:21:40

And we've, we've,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:40

Scapregoat, whatever, yeah..

Lee: 00:21:41

yeah, we've picked that up in, in previous series when we've talked about

Lee: 00:21:45

being an ally, for example, as a reason why some, some people don't want to

Lee: 00:21:49

show up for fear of getting it wrong.

Lee: 00:21:51

Um, I do also think there's a, there's the thing around popularity as well

Lee: 00:21:57

and wanting to be liked and not liking the fact that there could be possibly

Lee: 00:22:02

people out there that won't like you or won't share your views and all of that.

Lee: 00:22:07

So it goes back again to some, some mindset work you need to do as a

Lee: 00:22:12

leader, um, and recognizing that...

Lee: 00:22:20

recognizing and accepting that you won't always get it right, that

Lee: 00:22:24

you won't be popular all the time.

Lee: 00:22:27

And then I think there's the things of most stuff that

Lee: 00:22:31

you do, you can prepare for.

Lee: 00:22:33

Most strands of work that you're working on, you'll have the opportunity to do

Lee: 00:22:37

the prep work, do the mindset work, maybe do some reflection afterwards.

Lee: 00:22:42

So, I think that's fairly easy to navigate and make sure you've got the

Lee: 00:22:48

right support network around you, that you can test stuff out with people.

Lee: 00:22:51

All of that, I think then you've got the, the unknown and we've talked a lot about,

Lee: 00:22:58

making sure you use your voice and, and that can be making sure that you are

Lee: 00:23:03

getting involved in conversations that are diff difficult and tackling things,

Lee: 00:23:06

particularly when we look at issues of bias and discrimination and standing

Lee: 00:23:11

up and being an ally and all of that.

Lee: 00:23:12

That can feel like a difficult conversation that you might

Lee: 00:23:16

have to have as a leader.

Lee: 00:23:17

Um, and again there might be times where it feels like you can't prepare for that

Lee: 00:23:24

situation, but actually you probably can because you can see what other colleagues

Lee: 00:23:30

are doing in situations and reflect, how would I handle that differently?

Lee: 00:23:34

You could think, well, what's my position on X, Y, and Z issue?

Lee: 00:23:38

And if I'm asked to comment, what would I say?

Lee: 00:23:41

Um, you could think about you know, what do I, what do I stand for and how do I

Lee: 00:23:46

want to be showing up in certain places?

Lee: 00:23:49

So I do think that there are, in the vast majority of cases, you can do some form

Lee: 00:23:56

of preparation and then there's a bit of feel the fear and do it anyway that

Lee: 00:24:02

needs to, that needs to come into it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:04

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:05

And, and I guess just on your point of like learning and prepping, even

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

for things that you are not sure might even happen or that may become a bit

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:12

left field, you know, there are always those case studies out there about other

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:16

leaders or other organizations that have or haven't handled things well in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:20

public domains when things have happened.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:23

So even if, even if what comes mind.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:25

is An organization or a leader who you feel hasn't handled

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:28

something particularly well?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:29

There is always learning in there, isn't there?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:31

About, okay, I don't want to do it like that because I can see that it

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:34

landed really terribly in the media or that organization's customers really,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:39

there was backlash from them in the way they handled, you know, saying

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:43

sorry for something or not, you know?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:45

So I definitely think there is that opportunity to always be scoping

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:48

out those, um, kind of examples of the good and bad leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:52

and how you might handle those similar situations as a leader.

Lee: 00:24:56

And where, where, have you ever seen, um, a case where it's turned

Lee: 00:25:01

out well for someone who's just buried their heads in the sand and refused

Lee: 00:25:04

to engage on a difficult issue?

Lee: 00:25:07

It affects your reputation, whether you engage or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:09

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:10

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:11

And I.

Lee: 00:25:11

how much you want to control that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:13

and I know we've talked about that before on the show and

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:15

I'm sure we'll talk about it again.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:17

But yeah, you, you're absolutely right about considering the impact you want

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:20

to have, what you stand for and your reputation, I think, are important

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:24

in the decision making around how you are going to choose to deal with some

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:28

of those more public facing kind of big conversations that might, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:32

might be about difficult topics.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

So we've gone from the micro to the macro, individual to that wider

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

outside of your organization, difficult conversation you might have to have.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:43

So as a leader, what support might we need to prepare ourselves

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:48

and equip us to handle some of these difficult conversations?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:51

And you've touched on that preparation already.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:54

But is there more advice that you would give to leaders who are

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:57

potentially going to find themselves in these situations where they're

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

have been challenging conversations?

Lee: 00:26:03

I think for me there is something about your general approach to nurturing

Lee: 00:26:09

and building relationships with people.

Lee: 00:26:11

So that's something that you can do every day.

Lee: 00:26:14

And I, I think particularly about situations in my past career where, um,

Lee: 00:26:20

We've had difficult issues that we've had to deal with as an organization and

Lee: 00:26:26

how when things went really wrong, not having the right relationships externally

Lee: 00:26:33

just piled on the pressure for us.

Lee: 00:26:36

And once we really focused on building those relationships, it wasn't that

Lee: 00:26:41

we didn't get the pressure when things went wrong, but we were able to have a

Lee: 00:26:45

more open and transparent conversation with people, and we were able to have

Lee: 00:26:48

a private conversation with people might be different to the public

Lee: 00:26:52

conversation that they would then go on and talk about and think particularly,

Lee: 00:26:56

um, some mps that we, we dealt with.

Lee: 00:26:59

But if you don't put the work in, in, in working on relationships

Lee: 00:27:04

and dialogue to build that stock up for when things get difficult.

Lee: 00:27:09

I think that's a really important proactive step that you should be taking

Lee: 00:27:13

as a, as a leader, understanding who your stakeholders are and understanding

Lee: 00:27:17

who your support network is, because you need to be able to, um, when things do

Lee: 00:27:22

get tricky on, on the macro scale, being able to pick up the phone to someone

Lee: 00:27:28

and go, look, this is what I'm thinking.

Lee: 00:27:30

How would you handle it?

Lee: 00:27:32

Have you got any advice?

Lee: 00:27:34

All of that really is really helpful and important and gives you a, a, a

Lee: 00:27:39

different perspective to consider.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:42

Yeah, I, I agree with you and I think there's something for me as well

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:46

around, um, it's obviously really closely linked to the relationship building thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:51

Is that trust, like, have you created, uh, a trusting environment

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:56

and culture that your teams and that your stakeholders are operating in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:00

Um, and particularly for some of those challenging conversations that might be

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:04

more internally focused around, um, you know, performance, challenging behaviors.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:10

I, I think if that trust is there, then those conversations can start

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:15

and come from a place that feels very different, um, to a place where,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:19

where there isn't that trust and that safety to have those conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:22

So I think you are absolutely right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:24

It's all about the groundwork that you are able to put in to kind of build

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:28

that, uh, on your journey as a leader.

Lee: 00:28:30

And I think it's also linked to that.

Lee: 00:28:33

It's, it's about, so it's about building the relationship, it's understanding

Lee: 00:28:36

other people's motivations as well.

Lee: 00:28:38

Because often we can go into conversations at any level based

Lee: 00:28:43

on what we need to get out of it.

Lee: 00:28:44

And we don't prep for what the other person might need, what they might

Lee: 00:28:49

need from you, what they might need to hear, what they might need to

Lee: 00:28:52

satisfy their stakeholders if they're going to buy in and get engaged.

Lee: 00:28:56

So we, we look at perhaps conversations in a very one-sided, one dimensional way,

Lee: 00:29:02

and we absolutely need to look at it in a 4d kind of, I'm doing my hands everywhere,

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:09

For those that aren't watching on YouTube, there's a lot of

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:11

hand action going on to make something, uh, more, more three or four dimensional.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

Um, I would also say, um, on that point as well, around kind of when you go

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:23

into that conversation, you've got the thing that you want to get acknowledging

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:28

the other person or group of people might want something different, part of

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:32

your prep for that conversation could be, what is your compromise point?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:36

Where would you be willing to negotiate or make a compromise to

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:40

get to an end result that still feels like you've taken a positive step?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:44

And I think sometimes if you go in, as you've said too, focused on, I need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:48

get this from a conversation, rather than thinking about what the other

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:52

person then might feed back it it can leave you in a bit of a dead end if

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:57

you haven't got a space where you can go to for a compromise or come back for

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:01

a further conversation where you can negotiate something a bit different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:05

So I think that's a really useful, useful thing to point out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:08

And just to build a little bit on that, in terms of support, I think often, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:13

know, we've talked a lot about building those longstanding relationships, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:17

sometimes you'll be new to the leadership space, is, is there something different

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:23

you would start to say to people who are maybe new leaders who are very

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:28

quickly faced with having to maybe have some challenging conversations?

Lee: 00:30:31

Not, not hugely different to be honest with you.

Lee: 00:30:33

I mean, I think there's something about, uh, if you are new into a role or into

Lee: 00:30:39

an organization, regardless of the situation and context, you need to focus

Lee: 00:30:44

on relationship building, mapping out who your stakeholders are and, and what their

Lee: 00:30:49

role might be in different situations.

Lee: 00:30:51

And your first, you know, month, two months should be focused on

Lee: 00:30:56

absolutely building relationships and starting to develop connections.

Lee: 00:31:00

If something were to happen in those early days, that means you've got to engage with

Lee: 00:31:05

someone and you don't know them, then I think it's about looking for who does know

Lee: 00:31:13

them and how you can utilize, so there might be other people in your organization

Lee: 00:31:17

that can help support that conversation.

Lee: 00:31:20

You might not be the best person to have that conversation.

Lee: 00:31:22

Obviously, if you are the most senior person in an organization,

Lee: 00:31:26

you probably are the right person.

Lee: 00:31:28

But then you are dealing with a probably another very senior person.

Lee: 00:31:32

And there is, uh, you know, you can just, it goes back to that first point about

Lee: 00:31:36

being open and honest about, look, I'm new I don't necessarily understand the history

Lee: 00:31:42

or the context of everything, but this is the situation that we're dealing with.

Lee: 00:31:45

So you, you, you, you play to that, you, you make the point that, that

Lee: 00:31:50

you are where you are and that will be far more accepting, I suppose.

Lee: 00:31:57

but don't be dismissive of the history and all of that because some, some people can

Lee: 00:32:01

be bringing a lot of baggage or emotion because of how they've been treated in

Lee: 00:32:07

the past, maybe by your predecessor, maybe by the organization as a whole.

Lee: 00:32:12

So you can't make assumptions and there might need to be a bit of bridge building

Lee: 00:32:16

before you ask something of someone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:19

I think for me, what we've been talking about throughout

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:21

this conversation is so linked to that emotional intelligence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:24

Piece, and I know we've got a whole episode on that that

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:27

we've recorded previously, if anybody would like to listen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:30

Um, it is an interesting one, but is about that emotional intelligence, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:34

Being able to kind of judge when's the right time, how you know how to handle

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:39

these situations, being aware, being empathetic, understanding where people

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:44

are coming from, so, Yeah, I really like the points you've made there and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:48

particularly helpful for new leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:50

So we've got to that point in the conversation where it's the howtos time,

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:54

and I know we've just talked about some practical stuff that people could do,

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:58

but if you had to leave listeners with one or two practical tips or howtos

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:03

around having a difficult conversation as a leader, what, what would you most

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:08

want to leave them with terms of advice?

Lee: 00:33:11

Um, preparation, evidence, build relationships.

Lee: 00:33:21

Work on your mindset.

Lee: 00:33:22

Don't take it personally,

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:24

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:25

I have nothing to add.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:26

I was, I was honestly all about the preparation and the evidence, but now

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:30

I'm also all about the relationships and the, and the mindset stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:34

So I'm loving it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:35

So, um, thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:37

I'm glad that wasn't a difficult conversation for us to have.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:40

I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:41

I don't think we've reached that stage yet in our have Lee, where

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:44

we've had to have a really difficult conversation with each other.

Lee: 00:33:47

Well, maybe we have, but because we have an open dialogue

Lee: 00:33:51

and we're, because I could think of one thing where there was a word

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:55

Uh oh.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:56

Oh, yes, there is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:57

Yeah, there

Lee: 00:33:57

and I had to have that, that feedback of, I don't like this because of what

Lee: 00:34:02

and what I would prefer for you to do is

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:04

Yep.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:05

Yep.

Lee: 00:34:05

So we have, we have had those moments, but we've got a

Lee: 00:34:08

maturity in our relationship and we've, we've followed our own.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:12

Yes, we followed our own structure for having a difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:15

conversation, so I've loved that we've been able to role model that and we'll

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:18

leave people hanging with trying to work out what word that might be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:23

That's a good Eastender style end to the episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:26

What word was it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:29

Thank you so much for listening, everybody.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:31

Don't forget to, uh, like us, follow us if you don't already, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:35

to get future episodes straight, uh, straight into your inbox.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:39

Um, and we would love it if you would share this or any other episode that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:42

been useful to you, um, with, uh, people that you think might benefit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:45

So, uh, thank you so much everyone, and see you for the next episode soon.