Confidence

Lee: 00:00:00

So maybe it's, maybe it's just another word that goes into

Lee: 00:00:02

our banish box of things we don't like using in leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

The banish box.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

Yeah.

Lee: 00:00:40

Hello and welcome back to How to Take the Lead.

Lee: 00:00:43

If you are new to the show, hit the Follow button so you don't miss future episodes.

Lee: 00:00:48

And if you are a regular listener, please share the show with someone

Lee: 00:00:51

you know so even more people can join the Modern Leader Movement.

Lee: 00:00:55

Um, we are also now on YouTube, so if you're watching us there, hello.

Lee: 00:01:00

Um, and we'd love it if you subscribe and like this video, so there's more

Lee: 00:01:04

chance of YouTube doing its thing and pushing it out, algorithm, all of that.

Lee: 00:01:08

I don't quite understand it.

Lee: 00:01:09

Um, but if you could subscribe, that would be great.

Lee: 00:01:12

Um, also, I forgot last time in my, my role as chair was really poor.

Lee: 00:01:17

I didn't tell you about our socials.

Lee: 00:01:19

So we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter.

Lee: 00:01:22

So get involved in the conversations over there.

Lee: 00:01:24

That would be great.

Lee: 00:01:26

Is there anything else on our little checklist of stuff

Lee: 00:01:28

we need to say Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

No, I think that's probably about it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:31

People can, yeah, people can join our community if they head over to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

the website, um, they can subscribe.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:37

We promise not to spam you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:39

We just send you good stuff as and when.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

Um, so yeah, I think that's everything.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:43

Lots of ways now for people to engage with us, which is very exciting.

Lee: 00:01:47

it's good.

Lee: 00:01:47

Whereas, you know, part of the mission, isn't it,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:51

it's 2023 is the year of the mission, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:53

We are gonna make things happen, not just the talking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:56

We're gonna do some doing.

Lee: 00:01:57

Yes, exactly.

Lee: 00:01:59

So how are you feeling today?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:01

I'm, feeling alright today actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:03

I feel like, oh wait, why do I always go to weather?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:07

I was just about to say, I feel like the weather is perked up a little bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:11

The sun has been shining.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:13

The days feel a smid longer, so yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:16

All happy here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:17

How are you?

Lee: 00:02:17

We're going to have to start calling you Carrie-Ann Fish.

Lee: 00:02:20

Is that, is that, is that who I'm thinking?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

Michael

Lee: 00:02:22

Yeah.

Lee: 00:02:23

Yeah.

Lee: 00:02:23

Carrie-Ann Fish.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:25

Do a little mini-series of, uh, weather updates.

Lee: 00:02:31

You know this, there might be another career in you yet..

Lee: 00:02:33

Maybe this is your, um, you know, inner feeling.

Lee: 00:02:37

You really want to become a meteorologist

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

Maybe I want

Lee: 00:02:39

meteorologist

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:41

yeah, maybe I want it to be a weather person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:44

I've got plenty of years left in me before retirement.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

Who knows?

Lee: 00:02:49

So let's get to the meat of today's conversation.

Lee: 00:02:52

And today I want to tackle a word that so many people use when they think about

Lee: 00:03:02

their leadership and their development.

Lee: 00:03:04

Well, they use it in life too.

Lee: 00:03:06

Um, and that's the word, confidence.

Lee: 00:03:10

Um, I'd say like 95% of the discussions I'm having with clients at the moment

Lee: 00:03:16

is around the notion of confidence and how it's impacting them at work.

Lee: 00:03:21

Usually when people talk about confidence, I find it's from the perspective of

Lee: 00:03:25

not having it, but it'll be interesting to get your thoughts on this.

Lee: 00:03:29

I think it's some of the biggest leadership issues can stem from people

Lee: 00:03:34

having too much confidence, so I always find that an interesting dynamic.

Lee: 00:03:39

And the other thing I notice is that the word confident can be so subjective and

Lee: 00:03:44

absolutely will mean something different to me than it means to you, for example.

Lee: 00:03:50

Um, I did my little Google

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:52

I love it when you do a Google.

Lee: 00:03:53

I love a little Google.

Lee: 00:03:55

And the Google definition of confidence was the feeling or belief

Lee: 00:03:58

that one can have faith in or rely on someone or something, which

Lee: 00:04:03

I thought was quite interesting.

Lee: 00:04:06

And when I was reading up about different things around

Lee: 00:04:08

confidence, words that people kept talking about was assertiveness,

Lee: 00:04:13

self-confidence, speaking up.

Lee: 00:04:16

So it shows that there's this breadth of difference in what.

Lee: 00:04:21

Confidence means, and I'm sure we'll get into it at some point, but you

Lee: 00:04:26

know the biases that also play in around what it means to be confident.

Lee: 00:04:30

So confidence in women is definitely perceived as something very different

Lee: 00:04:34

as confidence in men and the negative con connotations of a confident woman

Lee: 00:04:39

versus a confident man, particularly when it comes to leadership, I

Lee: 00:04:42

think it's really interesting.

Lee: 00:04:43

Um, and you know, I've mentioned this in, in previous series, and actually it's

Lee: 00:04:47

an in our leadership, um, reading list.

Lee: 00:04:50

If you haven't got a copy of that, you can go to our website,

Lee: 00:04:53

howtotakethelead.com, and get your copy.

Lee: 00:04:56

The Confidence Code by Kitty K and Claire Shipman, which I think is a really,

Lee: 00:05:02

really brilliant book at breaking down this notion of confidence and, and

Lee: 00:05:09

confidence from a female perspective.

Lee: 00:05:12

Um, so for all that preamble, uh, i, I kinda wanna explore what

Lee: 00:05:21

confidence means to you because I do think it is so subjective.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:25

Oh, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

And just before I go onto that bit of the conversation, it's really

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:30

interesting, isn't it, that you've said how many of your clients are talking

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:33

about confidence and being confidence in confident in that leadership space?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:37

And, uh, in the Thrive program, I run a session that is about, uh, confidence

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:42

and growing your confidence for, uh, communications leaders and inspiring comms

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:47

leaders and it was really interesting because we've got to program four, um, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:52

we've had a conversation about shifting the notion away from being confident

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:56

to having self-belief, and I just found that was quite interesting and it, it

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:01

might be about the profession again.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:03

Um, you know, the delegates that come in through my Thrive program are all female.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:07

Um, but I just dunno if people are now wanting to kind, you know, people

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:10

are saying I'm a confident person.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:12

It's not that I don't have confidence, it's just that there are occasions

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:15

in the workplace where my self-belief is knocked and then that makes

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

me operate in a different way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

So I just think it is very interesting, isn't it, what you've said about

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:24

how people perceive confidence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:26

But, um, for me personally, so that's the, the question that you asked, sorry,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:30

having digressed slightly, um, it for me, being confident or demonstrating

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:36

confidence personally is all about how I feel I'm showing up in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:41

It's about, um, feeling able to express my professional opinion, um, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:48

finding a way for me to have a voice in the room or in the conversation,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:52

whatever that might look like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:53

It's not always a, a physical speaking voice, but like how

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:56

am I, um, showing up, having a.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:59

Um, expressing what I feel is important about any given topic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:03

There's something for me in that though about not feeling judged.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:07

So times possibly when I have felt judged for having my professional

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:12

opinion, that probably has made me feel less confident, um, to then

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:17

continue to express my opinion.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:19

But definitely as a leader, there's also something for me around confidence

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:25

showing up as being able to deal with difficult things, so not shying away

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:31

from challenging conversations or managing difficult issues because I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:38

worried about the consequence of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:39

It's like there will be a consequence and it could be any number of things,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:42

but I'm confident enough in myself to know that the right thing to

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:45

do, um, is to address the issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:48

So that was kind of my summary.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:49

I'm sure there's more in there if we unpacked it, but that could probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:52

be a whole therapy session on a couch.

Lee: 00:07:56

Well, may, maybe that's what this episode's gonna be.

Lee: 00:07:58

Who knows.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

It will be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

Maybe it will be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

How about you, Lee?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:01

What does it mean for you..

Lee: 00:08:03

So I think for me, confidence is that feeling of being able to represent

Lee: 00:08:10

yourself, your work, your decision making.

Lee: 00:08:14

I think rather than, um, maybe some of the other things that we've talked,

Lee: 00:08:17

it's that showing up that you've, you've said, which is important.

Lee: 00:08:21

I think from a leadership perspective, the role of leaders is to gain confidence

Lee: 00:08:27

of others so that an outcome is achieved.

Lee: 00:08:30

So for me, that's like, how do you build trust?

Lee: 00:08:33

And I think that's what I look in the word confidence when I look at it from

Lee: 00:08:36

a, from a leadership perspective though.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:39

Yeah, I think that trust thing is really important, and I'm sure we'll

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:42

talk about it more as the conversation goes on, but there is something

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:46

about trust on all of those levels.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:48

So how are you building trust?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

How are you building a culture where people feel.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:53

that they are trusted to make decisions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:57

They're empowered to find solutions that they feel, I know we talk about this a

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:01

lot, but they feel that that safety of being able to express themselves because

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

actually if you don't feel safe or you have fear of a negative consequence, then

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:11

I think even if you're a very confident person, you can decide not to show up in

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:15

a space because it's, it's easier or it's has less potential negative impact on.

Lee: 00:09:20

Yeah.

Lee: 00:09:21

So one of my big issues and we're just gonna get in there right at the beginning

Lee: 00:09:26

because I don't, I don't wanna pussy foot around this one , but it's when

Lee: 00:09:30

leaders are giving feedback to someone, and I've had this in my career and I've

Lee: 00:09:35

talked about it before on, on the show, um, and they say, you need to speak up

Lee: 00:09:40

more, you need to be more confident.

Lee: 00:09:42

And the two almost go hand in hand as a piece of feedback that you get.

Lee: 00:09:46

And it's like confidence equals having a voice, being loud, being heard,

Lee: 00:09:54

and possibly maybe being extrovert.

Lee: 00:09:57

Um, and for me, I've never had a problem with confidence in my

Lee: 00:10:02

career in the broadest sense.

Lee: 00:10:05

I know my abilities, I know what I'm good at.

Lee: 00:10:09

I was confident of the advice and guidance I was giving people.

Lee: 00:10:14

I was confident when I needed to know more.

Lee: 00:10:17

Cause I'm not saying that I had all the answers, um, but I was confident

Lee: 00:10:20

in my role and in my profession.

Lee: 00:10:22

But I was quiet.

Lee: 00:10:25

and I've said this a lot, I didn't, and I don't speak for speaking sake.

Lee: 00:10:31

I didn't feel my voice had to be the loudest one.

Lee: 00:10:34

In fact, I think people listened to me more because I spoke less than others.

Lee: 00:10:39

Um, and I, I remember this was probably about 18 months ago when I was first

Lee: 00:10:45

starting my business and I posted something on LinkedIn about being quiet,

Lee: 00:10:49

and someone who I'd worked with early on in my career replied and said, oh

Lee: 00:10:52

yes, they remember me being shy and unconfident and it really got my back up

Lee: 00:10:58

because yes, they might have been right about the shy bit because especially

Lee: 00:11:02

around people, I don't know, I do tend to be more reserved, but that doesn't

Lee: 00:11:05

mean I lacked confidence and I find it fascinating that so many of us perpetuate

Lee: 00:11:11

that myth of confidence equals loud.

Lee: 00:11:14

And actually I think it can be doing some real damage to people who are

Lee: 00:11:17

being pushed against their type, so to, you know, to become something else.

Lee: 00:11:23

And it's another reason, an example, why I think you know, the concept of imposter

Lee: 00:11:30

syndrome is a bit of a fallacy because it's biases like that that creates doubt

Lee: 00:11:36

in individuals, and it's a bit like you've just said with the people that

Lee: 00:11:38

you are working with on your program.

Lee: 00:11:40

It can be things that happen external to your environment that

Lee: 00:11:43

that push a perception on how you should be that creates that

Lee: 00:11:47

self-doubt in what you are doing.

Lee: 00:11:50

and that's where I think the danger of this concept of, of confidence

Lee: 00:11:54

really plays into the workplace.

Lee: 00:11:56

So I'd be interested on your views on that after I had my little rant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:00

So, so so I guess it's interesting, isn't it, because again,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:03

we've talked about this a lot on the show, so I'm, I'm more naturally

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:06

extroverted and I would say my preference is, is as an extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:10

But I think sometimes in the same way that you're saying, there's this assumption

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

that people who have more introverted tendencies are shy and not confident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:19

And actually that's not true.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

I mean, some people might be, but, um, you know, I, I don't think that's true.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:25

I also think sometimes as an extrovert, there are the same kind of myths actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:31

So, uh, in my own experience and working with other people who are also

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:36

extroverted, sometimes that loudness and how you are showing up that is potentially

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:42

perceived to be confident, perhaps sometimes arrogant, perhaps sometimes, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:48

just being a bit too much and not letting other people have the space is actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:52

a bit of a cover for the times when you are feeling least confident because it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:56

almost like putting up a shield or there's a bit of a facade that you keep up.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:01

And it's like, actually, if I'm the person who, you know, cracks the jokes, is the

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:05

person that's bringing everyone together and, you know, being really bubbly and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:09

and maybe a bit overconfident in the room, I'm probably being more like that when

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:13

I'm feeling least confident in myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:16

So that's quite interesting for me in terms of a, a bit of a dynamic to explore.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:21

And then the other thing that I've personally found is that sometimes

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:25

it's assumed that because you are a confident person that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:30

don't need support for things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:32

So particularly more in relationships where, you know, I've needed

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:37

support from my line manager for example, even as a senior leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:42

you need that support, don't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:44

Sometimes feedback you know, to be able to be supportive because yes, you can

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:49

be confident, but that doesn't mean that you feel like you know everything.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:52

There's always still more to learn, but often I think if you are perceived as

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:56

a really confident person, it's almost like, well you don't, you don't need

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

that support cuz you know what you're doing because you are really super

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:03

confident and I've often sometimes found conversations where I'm trying to express,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:08

where maybe I do feel like I need to learn more or need more experience of

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:13

something, sometimes get a bit overlooked and brushed off a bit because it's like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:18

yeah, but you are really confident and it's like, hmm, what's that got to do

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:21

with like how I feel about a specific topic or a specific area of my work?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:26

So yeah, that was my original thoughts that came out as you were

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:29

talking from my perspective of being more extroverted in that.

Lee: 00:15:10

It's interesting, so, so what struck me as you were talking was this

Lee: 00:15:14

sense of, you know, if there are these perceptions of how confident people

Lee: 00:15:19

show up or extroverted people show up and it's not necessarily the case.

Lee: 00:15:24

And then there's perceptions of introverted people and how they

Lee: 00:15:28

are unconfident and how they show up and that isn't the case.

Lee: 00:15:31

Like who is it then that's creating this, this kind of tension

Lee: 00:15:36

around showing up with confidence.

Lee: 00:15:39

Because if you are an extrovert telling someone to be more confident,

Lee: 00:15:43

but you are not feeling confident yourself, why would you be doing that?

Lee: 00:15:46

And if you are an introvert or, or someone who's deemed to be seeming unconfident.

Lee: 00:15:51

Why?

Lee: 00:15:51

Why aren't you challenging it?

Lee: 00:15:52

I, I just found that quite like, where's it coming from?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:56

I don't know if you're expecting me to have the answer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:59

Lee , you said that as if I was gonna throw in some golden

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

nugget of an answer, then.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:04

But you, but you raise a good point, don't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:06

And I, I guess it's back to that point as well around how confident people

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:13

feel and how with how much confidence people show up is so much influenced by

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:18

those external factors that we started to talk about rather than maybe actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:23

what we know about ourselves and what we're good at and where we're operating.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:26

Do you know?

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:27

So there is something about that judgment of others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:30

I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:31

Kind of ma having an impact on how confident a another person might feel.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:37

And there's something about how do we shift and change that culture then to

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:40

have conversations across the board about it's okay not to know everything.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:45

It's okay, you know, when we talk about the imposter syndrome and I use the bunny

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:49

ears, um, when I say it because I know we've had a lot of debate about, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:53

is that the right term to use for some of the things that show up as part of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:58

There's just something for me about like, you know, maybe everybody

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:01

is just sometimes feeling a bit like they're not on their A game.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:04

You know, somebody's made a judgment about them, that's knocked their self-belief,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:09

so therefore they don't feel as valued or they don't feel like what they're doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:12

is as important or as good as it can be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:15

And if that happens to everybody, whether you are an introvert,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:18

extrovert, or anything in between, like why can't we create a culture

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:21

where it's a ok to talk about, you know, not being confident, failing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:26

learning, developing rather than it...

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:28

I feel like it's coming from a sort of like performance based judgmenty type

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:32

space that it's like, you must be like this to be able to be good at something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:36

But like you say, he determined that and when and why haven't we shifted

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:40

away from that type of conversation?

Lee: 00:17:42

So I'm really interested then to, to ask you as someone who's perhaps

Lee: 00:17:48

potentially perceived as being a confident person, obviously there's that

Lee: 00:17:52

vulnerability of you maybe not always feeling confident, but feeling like

Lee: 00:17:56

you've got to show up in a certain way.

Lee: 00:17:58

Have you felt confident to challenge that misconception of you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:02

Yes, yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:03

But probably only as I've been in my career for longer, not in the early

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:09

days, more so probably in the last few years I've been, I've felt more able to

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:14

have that conversation with people and I think I've been more aware of when

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:19

I can see people who seem to be acting maybe sometimes like I have done when

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:25

there is that bit of a facade and that kind of, oh, they're put not putting on

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:29

a brave do, but do you know what I mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:30

Like just bigging things up a bit to almost cover up for the fact

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:34

that actually I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing here,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:37

but I don't feel like I can say it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:39

So I, I have felt able to, and I hope in a compassionate way have some of those

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:44

conversations from the point of view that like, I've noticed this and actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

it's something that I've experienced and that I've done before and is there

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:53

something going on here that you need support with or that I can help with?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:56

So more so now, definitely not early on in my career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:01

I think the other thing is that actually work, working and collaborating with

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:07

you, Lee, I think has helped me to try to be more aware of when people's

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:12

personality types or preferences are not like mine, how can I be supportive of

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:18

them showing up how they might want to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:21

Um, so not just assuming that because people are quiet, they haven't got

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:24

something to say, like what other options are there for them to contribute their

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:29

expertise and their ideas into the space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:32

So I do also think with time and probably more so over the last few years

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:36

of working with you, because we are quite, quite opposites in that sense,

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:40

that I have made a conscious effort to learn more about how I can help people

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:46

who might not have my preference to, to show up and potentially operate

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:50

with more confidence, but I like you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:52

I'm not sure that is the right term.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:54

It's more about having this space and opportunity to feel like you can share.

Lee: 00:19:59

Yeah.

Lee: 00:20:00

Yeah.

Lee: 00:20:01

So maybe it's, maybe it's just another word that goes into our banish box of

Lee: 00:20:04

things we don't like using in leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:06

The banish box.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:07

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:09

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:10

May maybe we need to physically create the banish box, like we we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:13

not talking about this anymore.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:16

so we've got confidence and imposter syndrome.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:19

What else have we got?

Lee: 00:20:20

Uh, Strat Well, strategy for strategy's sake.

Lee: 00:20:23

I think when people say you've got to be more strategic,

Lee: 00:20:25

that can go, that can do one

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:28

Hello.

Lee: 00:20:29

like our personal room 1 0 1

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

yeah, there's a Banish Box bonus episode coming up I reckon

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:36

Sorry, we digress

Lee: 00:20:37

No.

Lee: 00:20:37

So, so we've, we've kind of broken down the concept and construct of confidence.

Lee: 00:20:43

I think we've opened a whole can of worms around who is setting this?

Lee: 00:20:49

Because if both parties, and obviously we are talking very general terms because

Lee: 00:20:53

there will be people who do genuinely feel super confident and people who

Lee: 00:20:57

genuinely feel unconfident and we are not belittling or dismissing those

Lee: 00:21:02

feelings, but in the general sense.

Lee: 00:21:05

So yeah, whole can of worms that I think we're gonna have to park cuz

Lee: 00:21:07

we haven't got an answer for that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:09

Or enough time in this episode,

Lee: 00:21:12

but let's get a little bit practical now.

Lee: 00:21:15

So many of the coaching conversations that I have revolve around leaders saying

Lee: 00:21:20

that they need to show more confidence.

Lee: 00:21:23

So assuming that that's true, even if it's someone's limiting belief or some self

Lee: 00:21:29

talk they've got for themselves, assuming that they do need to show up with more

Lee: 00:21:33

confidence, what can you do about it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

So there are a few things that come to mind for me and actually, um, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:42

mentioned that we talk a lot about this on Thrive and there's a whole session around

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:45

this where actually we spend some time together and solo uh, thinking about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:51

situations, and we're gonna use the word confident cuz that's what what we've,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:55

what we've deem this episode is about, even if we wanna find another word for it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:59

But spend some time thinking about the situations in the workplace,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:03

in your leadership role where you do feel you are most confident?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:07

Like when are the times that I feel like yes, I'm totally smashing it and

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:11

I feel like I'm, you know, talking with authority people are, you know, really

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:15

taken on board, like my suggestions, whatever it is, identify those areas

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:20

and also spend a bit of time identifying where you feel the least confident and

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

are there certain situations where you are like, that's when I just feel like

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:29

I wanna keep my head down when I'm not showing up, when I feel that self-doubt,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:34

when my self-belief is really low.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:36

And when you've done that, try to maybe identify any themes that are coming

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:39

up, um, through that reflective piece.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:42

And therefore whether there are any opportunities for you to create

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:46

more of the conditions you need to feel more confident more often.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:51

And that might be stuff that you can do yourself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

It might be support that you need from other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:55

But just by having that opportunity to reflect, I think it can help

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:59

you, um, to kind of work out when, and hopefully why you have those

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:04

moments of like peak confidence and low confidence and whether there is

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:08

anything you can do to nudge those lower confidence moments up more towards

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:13

where you're feeling more confident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:15

I said confident a lot in that bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:17

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:18

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:18

I'll stop now and ask you what you think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:20

I.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

I have got some more thoughts, but I wanna hear what you think Lee, cuz I'm sure

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

some of them might, might be similar.

Lee: 00:23:26

Well, well, I, I like your, the, the kind of exercise that you can do, and I

Lee: 00:23:31

do similar with, with my clients around getting that clarity, asking, you know,

Lee: 00:23:36

what would a more confident you look like?

Lee: 00:23:39

What would they sound like?

Lee: 00:23:40

How would they be different in the actions and the decisions they you know, you took,

Lee: 00:23:46

um, because I do think that self-awareness is, is super important and identifying

Lee: 00:23:51

the gap you are, you are trying to close.

Lee: 00:23:53

Um, but I also think there's, there's for me, something around,

Lee: 00:23:58

often this comes up as an issue because of some kind of feedback

Lee: 00:24:02

that you've had from someone else.

Lee: 00:24:04

So it's important that you don't just take that and run with it without

Lee: 00:24:08

understanding and contextualizing, you know, our conversation already

Lee: 00:24:12

has shown how different people think differently about confidence.

Lee: 00:24:16

So your interpretation could be very different to the person who's feeding

Lee: 00:24:20

that back to you and what they had in mind they want you to do differently.

Lee: 00:24:24

So I think you need to ask them to be a bit more specific.

Lee: 00:24:28

Give examples, ask the question, you know, what would that look

Lee: 00:24:31

like in in practice if I was to be more showing up more confidently?

Lee: 00:24:36

And then you need to do that reflection piece, which is.

Lee: 00:24:41

is this a valid piece of feedback?

Lee: 00:24:42

Is it a change that I'm willing to make?

Lee: 00:24:44

Does it fit with my values, with my personality and the way I want to work?

Lee: 00:24:49

And then, then you can make some decisions around what you, you know,

Lee: 00:24:53

do you want to do anything about it?

Lee: 00:24:55

Or are you going to perhaps close the loop and p politely feedback that

Lee: 00:25:00

actually this is how you, you are gonna approach that issue instead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:04

I love that and I'm glad you mentioned the feedback thing, cuz that was

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:07

the other, uh, element of what I wanted to talk about around that, like evidence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:11

No, no, no, no.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:12

It's good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:12

Like around that evidence and it, and it works both ways.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:15

So it's like if you've got that feedback, like how do you validate it or not and

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:20

understand it, and actually if people are prepared to give you that feedback,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:23

then in my humble opinion, they should also be prepared to expand on that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:27

and give you some concrete examples.

Lee: 00:25:30

And it's amazing how many people can't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:32

Yeah, and maybe that's just because the way you operate is different

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:36

to the way they operate and they just can't get their heads around that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

maybe that feedback isn't valid at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:41

I also think when that kind of self-doubt element creeps in around

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:45

kind of how confident you feel, there is something, and I know you've had

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:48

to do this with me a couple of times, Lee, where it's just like, where's

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:52

your, where is your evidence of that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:53

And actually sometimes when you look, your evidence says the opposite,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:57

which is, all your clients are feeding this back to you so I dunno why you

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:01

are not confident in thinking that you're doing a good job, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

So that that bit of validation and that like seeking out your evidence, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:09

think is really important because the evidence might be showing you something

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:13

very different how you feel inside.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:15

And then the other bit around evidence for me is also about

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:19

demonstrating the value that you add.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:21

And that might be where sometimes you don't feel confident enough to do

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:25

that in certain ways, but are there really practical things that you could

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:28

do that would help you to feel like you are demonstrating that value add

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:33

as a leader into your organization?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:35

So is it about where you have certain conversations?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:38

Who with?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:39

Are you doing, you know, reports or updates on the really great things

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:43

that you are doing where you have a lot of confidence, but maybe you are not

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:46

getting the opportunity to share that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:48

So I think that evidence feedback piece feels like a really crucial part of,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:52

of showing up with more confidence if that's what you feel like you need to do.

Lee: 00:26:56

Yeah.

Lee: 00:26:57

And I think there's um, also that self-reflection piece that you need to do

Lee: 00:27:02

as an individual, which is to understand whether is confidence the issue or are

Lee: 00:27:08

there other things that are at play that's maybe making you question your abilities?

Lee: 00:27:13

So we talked a little bit earlier about some of the biases that

Lee: 00:27:15

might play out from other people.

Lee: 00:27:17

Um, , but also it could be the high standards that you've set

Lee: 00:27:21

yourself and perhaps they're not realistic or achievable and you are

Lee: 00:27:25

feeling like you are not performing because you're not achieving the,

Lee: 00:27:29

the standards that you've set.

Lee: 00:27:30

It might be that you are feeling micromanaged or you are micromanaging

Lee: 00:27:34

other things, so that's creating a bit of a pressure block around an

Lee: 00:27:39

issue and, and again, it goes back to that, that sense of, oh, am I

Lee: 00:27:42

delivering if I'm not delivering, do I feel confident in what I'm doing?

Lee: 00:27:45

But it could be what your starting point is.

Lee: 00:27:47

And then there's absolutely that thing around other people's attitudes and

Lee: 00:27:51

behaviors and understanding whether there is some kind of bias at play.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:56

absolutely don't disagree with any of that lee

Lee: 00:28:00

I think there's probably some really tangible things that people could do

Lee: 00:28:04

as well if they do feel like they are confident you know, and I've done this

Lee: 00:28:10

in, in my career where perhaps I, you know, I've said I don't necessarily

Lee: 00:28:15

talk for talking sake in meetings and, um, I'm someone that's a bit of

Lee: 00:28:20

a thinker and a ponderer and don't like necessarily be put on the spot.

Lee: 00:28:24

So, you know, how did I show up confidently in work?

Lee: 00:28:27

It was things like, How I prepared for meetings, reading the meeting papers,

Lee: 00:28:35

maybe having some talking points, thinking through what questions I

Lee: 00:28:38

could ask if I felt that they were of value and do do all the work.

Lee: 00:28:43

It, it was a lot of work before I, I couldn't just go into a

Lee: 00:28:46

meeting and wing it because that wasn't my comfortable style.

Lee: 00:28:50

I didn't like being put on the spot.

Lee: 00:28:53

that doesn't mean I wasn't confident in the stuff I was saying, but for me

Lee: 00:28:56

to fully contribute to discussions I needed to have that space beforehand

Lee: 00:29:03

to think, reflect on, you know, what's the outcome, what do I think

Lee: 00:29:06

my role and contribution could be to, to this, whether that was a meeting

Lee: 00:29:10

or whether that was something else.

Lee: 00:29:11

When I work with, with leaders, um, often it can be, they can go into, I don't

Lee: 00:29:18

know, board meetings or whatever, and they talk coherently or they go too into

Lee: 00:29:25

too much detail and therefore people are questioning you do they know what

Lee: 00:29:30

they're doing because they're not able to succinctly pull out the stuff that I

Lee: 00:29:33

need for assurance purposes, for example.

Lee: 00:29:36

And so just working on, on it with someone to, to develop what your key

Lee: 00:29:40

messages are, for example, or how they deliver the messages so you know, more

Lee: 00:29:45

positive language or maybe being a bit more optimistic in, or maybe it's

Lee: 00:29:50

how you project when you are talking.

Lee: 00:29:52

So there's, there are practical things you could be doing and as you've mentioned,

Lee: 00:29:58

don't be afraid to get support if needed.

Lee: 00:30:01

It could be a mentor, it could be a coach.

Lee: 00:30:04

There are specific training courses on particular issues

Lee: 00:30:07

that, that you can tackle as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:09

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:09

And I think have that, um, support network of people where you can test

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:13

things out and it doesn't have to be loads of people, but those people that

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:16

you really trust where you can go, I'm really struggling with this and I feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:20

like I want to try a different approach, but I'm just not sure how it's gonna land.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:24

Like just talk it through with people who you feel like are either gonna just

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:27

at least give you that safe space to talk through or you know, maybe give

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:31

you some of that constructive challenge and feedback that will help you.

Lee: 00:30:35

So we've, we've tackled the possible situation where someone feeling like they

Lee: 00:30:42

need to show more confidence or, or feel more confident in what they're doing.

Lee: 00:30:45

So let's, let's tackle the flip side of that, which is, if you've had

Lee: 00:30:48

that feedback that perhaps you're showing up with too much confidence

Lee: 00:30:52

and you need to dial it down a bit, what does that look like?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:56

So some of my advice around this would be the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:59

So some of it is about understand that feedback.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:01

If people are saying this to you, be curious and open about

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:05

asking what this really means.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:07

What are they perceiving?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:08

Why do they think this about you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:10

So that can help you identify what the issue is, if there is

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:14

an issue, there might not be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:15

But kind of just understanding why there is this perception that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:19

showing up with too much confidence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:21

And in this space, I definitely think it's probably more likely

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:24

to be external feedback that says that to you than you thinking it

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:27

yourself, if I'm perfectly honest.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:29

Um, so you really need to, but need to not be defensive about working

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:33

through like what that means for other people and how they're perceiving you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:37

Cause I think that will help you do that, um, that reflection

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:40

piece to understand it better.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:42

There's definitely something for me around reflecting on why you might be perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:48

over amplifying some of your behaviors or some of how you're showing up in the room.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:53

Like what's the cause of that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:55

And you know, it, it might be really uncomfortable to have some of this

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:59

self-reflection and maybe you need to do it with a coach or a mentor or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:04

but there's something about like, what is the cause?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:06

Is it that you are feeling some sort of need to prove yourself?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:09

And why is that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:10

Is it because you don't have trust in the people around you to come

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:13

up with the solution, so you feel like you are having to contribute

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:17

everything that you've got and not give them the space to, to contribute?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:21

So I think there could be lots of factors as to why you might be

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:26

full on uh, can you over show up?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:28

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:29

But showing up with that, too much of that confidence , the, with the jazz hands.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:35

Um, so I think there is is an important piece of work to do there that might

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:38

be partly by yourself, might be with some support from other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:42

And then I think there is also that bit that I mentioned before um, that I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:47

tried to do, which is learning more about the different people and personality types

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:51

that you are working with as a senior leader so that you can actually work out

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:56

how best to support them to show up as well and create maybe more of an equitable

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:01

balance around voices in the room, people sharing suggestions, ideas, because that

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:07

can help you to just be more aware of making sure that you're not maybe always

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:11

taking things over, talking over people, because actually you have a role as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:16

leader to get the best out of everybody.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:18

So you need to start doing some of that understanding as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:21

And yeah, I abso and I absolutely think that both, both of those scenarios

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:27

probably might, somewhere along the line, if you look back, say something about

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:32

the culture that either you are or that is being created in your organization if

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:36

you've got got that space, but that again is probably a whole other episode, Lee

Lee: 00:33:41

Well, I mean, without a doubt, the the nub of the issue is, is

Lee: 00:33:46

around as a leader being, having that self-awareness and also knowing

Lee: 00:33:52

who you surround yourself with.

Lee: 00:33:53

So I think the two almost go hand in hand for me.

Lee: 00:33:57

The who you surround your self with is really important cuz you need people

Lee: 00:34:02

around you who's gonna tell it to you as it is not what you would like to hear.

Lee: 00:34:07

So they can help perhaps shine a light on some of those behaviors that might

Lee: 00:34:12

not be helpful in the culture that you are, you are building or, or how

Lee: 00:34:16

you are managing certain situations.

Lee: 00:34:17

So I think for anything in your leadership development being really

Lee: 00:34:24

curated, you know, cur curate your your support network's really important, I

Lee: 00:34:30

know we've talked about that before.

Lee: 00:34:31

And then I think this, this awareness of your behaviors and if you don't

Lee: 00:34:34

have the right people around you who are, who are willing to perhaps feed

Lee: 00:34:43

it back and, and even though they know you're not gonna like it, you could

Lee: 00:34:48

be perpetuating behaviors and creating a culture that you, you don't like.

Lee: 00:34:53

So you, you being aware of what you say and how you say it.

Lee: 00:34:59

Are you being condescending when you are feeding back to people?

Lee: 00:35:02

Are you taking all the credit for the stuff that your team's doing?

Lee: 00:35:06

Are you perhaps pushing blame to other people when things don't work?

Lee: 00:35:10

All of those are, are kind of warning signs in, in my eyes, of

Lee: 00:35:14

being slightly overconfident in your leadership and, and management.

Lee: 00:35:20

Um, and you need someone to call you out on.

Lee: 00:35:22

that

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:22

and and I, I absolutely agree with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:25

And to build on that, I guess earlier in my career, going back to the point that

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:29

sometimes maybe some of us who are showing up with CO too, too much confidence,

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:35

some of that might be about masking where we are really feeling not confident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:39

And actually sometimes I think, you know, a lot of the time there will be people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:44

I don't, I don't think this person's going to like this feedback because

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:47

they're so confident, they think they know it all is probably a perception,

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:50

but actually there will be those odd occasions where it would've been really

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:54

nice for me to have somebody say, do you know what, you seem to be like

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:57

super loud in this meeting or the last few times we've met you've like really

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:01

talked, not let anyone have a voice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:03

Like, is everything okay with you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:05

Because I think that would have given me permission to go, no, actually I feel like

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:09

I'm really out of my depth and I dunno what I'm doing and I'm, and I, but I,

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:12

and I know that won't be everybody, but again, it's like that feedback is really

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:16

helpful because particularly earlier on in my career, and I'm sure with other

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:20

people, you think you have to show up with confidence all the time cause that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:24

what's gonna make people believe that you are really great at your job and that

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:27

it's gonna get you your next career step.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:29

And sometimes just somebody kindly saying to you, this is, this is how

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:34

you're coming across, is that how you are intending to come across?

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:36

Is there anything going on there for you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:38

Might actually just be the release you need to go, I know you think

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:41

I'm super cocky and know it all but actually at the moment I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:45

feeling really out for my depth.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:46

So I think there's the two sides, but I absolutely do think a lot of the time

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:50

it's, it's that other bit of it that people are so sure of themselves may

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:53

be that they are not gonna accept the feedback, but yeah, like you say, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:57

need people who are gonna feel able to give you that feedback compassionately

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:02

and with good intent to enable you to, to maybe be more self-aware and reflect.

Lee: 00:37:07

Yeah.

Lee: 00:37:08

So that brings us nicely to our How To.

Lee: 00:37:11

So our ending on a few helpful prompts or actions that you can take.

Lee: 00:37:17

So, so what are your How tos Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:19

From today's conversation I would definitely say there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:22

something for me about being curious and digging more into that feedback.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:27

So if you're getting either feedback, you're too much,

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:30

you're too, you are not enough.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:31

Whatever that feedback is that you're getting about how you're showing up on

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:34

your confidence, I think the crucial bit is to kind of dig into that and get some

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:38

real examples and evidence that will then help you do the next really important

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:43

thing, which I think is that reflection piece about kind of why, and you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:47

if there's lots of ways you can do that depending on where you are in this space,

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:51

about how confident you're feeling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:52

But, so yeah, understand the feedback, maybe seek out some more and, um, do that

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:58

self-reflection piece would be my two..

Lee: 00:38:00

Yeah, my mine's similar.

Lee: 00:38:02

I, I think that is the most important thing that that's, you,

Lee: 00:38:05

you can almost self coach yourself.

Lee: 00:38:07

You know?

Lee: 00:38:07

What, what does a change in confidence look like?

Lee: 00:38:10

How will you know a change has happened?

Lee: 00:38:12

But I do think, don't just take feedback or, or even your

Lee: 00:38:16

own belief at at face value.

Lee: 00:38:19

You do need to do that dig in a bit deeper for, for all the

Lee: 00:38:22

reasons that we've talked about.

Lee: 00:38:23

And um, we'll put a link in the show notes to the book we mentioned.

Lee: 00:38:28

And also if you want to subscribe to get other leadership reading

Lee: 00:38:31

recommendations, you can do that.

Lee: 00:38:33

If you like this episode, don't forget to hit like and share it with someone so that

Lee: 00:38:39

they can also benefit from our wisdom.

Lee: 00:38:41

Does that sound too confident Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:43

Oh, are you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:43

You are showing up really overconfident there, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:46

Almost borderline a bit cocky.

Lee: 00:38:49

But please do give us, give us a like, uh, thumbs up.

Lee: 00:38:53

Whatever your app of choice gives you as an option, we welcome it all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:58

Basically, if you like us, say something nice cuz

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:00

it'll really boost our confidence

Lee: 00:39:02

Yes, that note, we will see you next week.