How can organisations better support leaders?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

Oh, I love it when you do that face.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:01

I love it now that some people will see you do that face as well, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:04

It's like, yeah, this is right up Lee Street.

Lee: 00:00:07

I'm just rolling up my sleeves here,

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:40

Hello and welcome to episode two of series three, how have we got

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:46

here already, of how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:49

I am here, uh, as you can see, I say as you can see, because you might

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

well be watching this on YouTube.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

How exciting, um, that this series is, uh, not only, uh, being shared via

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

podcast on your listening platform of choice, um, but is also on YouTube.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:07

So I'm here with the lovely Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:08

Lee, how are you?

Lee: 00:01:10

I can wave now.

Lee: 00:01:11

I'm well, thank you.

Lee: 00:01:16

I'm really good.

Lee: 00:01:17

It's been a busy week.

Lee: 00:01:18

I'm looking forward to a g and t that it's a bit too early

Lee: 00:01:21

for g and t now, but who knows.

Lee: 00:01:24

Now we're on YouTube.

Lee: 00:01:25

Maybe we bring back the old Inster.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:27

Oh, stop.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

If we bring back the gin recommendations, that would be amazing.

Lee: 00:01:32

Let us know in the comments if you want that

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

If, if you wanna start and bring back the g and t movement for how to take

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

the lead, yeah, please do let us know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

Um, uh, , so just, that's just really made me chuckle.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:45

Um, I'm, I also now have a request of you, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:48

Um, given that th that this is being filmed and will be on youTube is to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:53

please remind me if I ever have another Jack Duckworth moment with my glasses?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:56

Um,

Lee: 00:01:57

Niche reference

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:58

Yeah, very niche reference.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:59

You can go back and find the episode that we are referring to on the podcast.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:03

Um, uh, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:04

So I'd have to be aware of what I look like as well as what I sound like, as

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:08

well as what I'm saying, but trials and tribulations of leadership eh?

Lee: 00:02:14

know it kind of flies in the face of the fact that we go

Lee: 00:02:16

like, just show up as you, and there's us putting our lipstick on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

So, oh, I can't, I couldn't possibly go on looking

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:23

like that, i'll frighten people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:25

Um, Um, and then I felt sorry for my poor team who do sometimes have to see me on

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

video all day long without my lipstick on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:33

So, you know, I probably need to stop.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:35

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:35

Being my more , authentic self.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:37

So, um, here we are.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

Um, welcome to How to Take the Lead you can now, uh, watch along

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:43

on YouTube if you'd like to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:44

If you, uh, would like to do that, we would love it if you would,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:48

uh, share it, leave a comment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:50

Um, and the same applies to listening, uh, on your platform of choice to the

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:54

podcast as well, because if you just share this with one other person,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:58

you are helping us with our movement, uh, in creating the modern leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:02

um, which would be just brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:03

We're also on the socials, so you can find us on Instagram and Twitter.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:07

And again, we would love to hear your feedback.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

Uh, do connect with us, uh, tell us what you think and what you'd

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:13

like us to cover, uh, to help you on your leadership journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:16

So, uh, I think that's probably all of the intro, uh, spiel I need to give

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

to make sure that you are showing up where we are showing up and vice versa.

Lee: 00:03:26

It feels like when you go to a conference now, doesn't it?

Lee: 00:03:29

You know, the exits are here and here the, we haven't got a planned alarm.

Lee: 00:03:33

Um, so if you do hear one, please evacuate the building.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:37

I mean, I would say if you need a comfort break,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:39

we're all adults and just go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:40

But I would be disappointed if you did that Lee, then I would be sat here

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

on my own So if you need a comfort break, you're just gonna have to wait.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:49

Okay, . So let's get into, uh, what we are planning to talk about in this

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

episode uh, how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:59

Um, and it's something that has come up for me in numerous different

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:03

conversations over the years.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:06

I would probably say so, not just recently, but over a period of time,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:10

um, around what organizations can do to support the development of their leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

It's something that I often hear quite a lot of moans and niggles about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:22

Um, it's something that some places seem to get really right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:26

Some places seem to get really wrong.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:29

Um, and there also feels like there are a lot of organizations that are just

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:33

sitting somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, kind of just doing enough

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:37

maybe to make leaders feel valued to help develop a potential pipeline of, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:44

future leaders for their organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:46

Um, so I really wanted to just, uh, have that conversation with you today, Lee, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:50

get some of your views, uh, views on that and where I wanted to start, given that

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:56

we definitely both claim to be leaders in our respective fields and in potentially

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:04

previous roles we've had in, in your situation, um, and in my current role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:08

Um, but I just sort of wondered if we could reflect a little bit on how we got

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:12

here , uh, from, we don't have to go into all of that that would be a really long

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:16

episodebut the point of view of, what sort of leadership conversations did you ever

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:22

have, if any, early on in your career?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

Because we have found ourselves, for whatever reason, I would like to think

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:29

through hard work and aspiration, um, in these leadership positions in our careers.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:35

But like, when did we talk about this sort of stuff and who talked about

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:39

it with us when we were, we were much earlier on in our career journeys.

Lee: 00:05:44

Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it, cuz I, I.

Lee: 00:05:49

I don't, I don't recall any specific conversations.

Lee: 00:05:53

Certainly not in my more junior days if I put it that way.

Lee: 00:05:59

I, I can recall a couple of conversations when I became more senior, um, but

Lee: 00:06:04

not anything in, in, as I was kind of coming up the ranks, there's two

Lee: 00:06:09

conversations that, that stick in my mind.

Lee: 00:06:12

One was, Telling me actually that I needed to move into a more operational role

Lee: 00:06:18

if I wanted to progress in my career.

Lee: 00:06:20

So it was kind of saying, oh, your chosen profession isn't

Lee: 00:06:23

taken seriously enough and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:24

Uh, well, let's not get on that soapbox Lee, cuz that

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:27

could be a whole other episode.

Lee: 00:06:30

And the other one was with a really supportive CEO who

Lee: 00:06:35

recognized what I could offer.

Lee: 00:06:38

Um, and I suppose actively then had that discussion with me about, well, let's

Lee: 00:06:45

get you a coach to work on the things you perhaps don't feel as comfortable with.

Lee: 00:06:50

Um, put me on a, a, a leadership, a system leadership course.

Lee: 00:06:54

So that was expanding my horizon and my network a bit more.

Lee: 00:06:58

And it was, of course, they'd been on themselves.

Lee: 00:07:00

Um, so actually both of these conversations were with CEOs, so

Lee: 00:07:04

it's interesting the different approach of, of two different CEOs.

Lee: 00:07:08

I'm giving you the finger

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:09

Yeah, I know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:10

And sorry to all the viewers slash listeners who, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:14

just seen Lee flip the bird,

Lee: 00:07:18

So, yeah, it's, it's an interesting one that, that I, I, I genuinely, maybe

Lee: 00:07:23

someone in my past will, will listen to this and go, hang on a minute,

Lee: 00:07:27

what about this thing that happened?

Lee: 00:07:29

But I can't, I can't remember it if I did.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:31

and, and I think that's interesting, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:33

You say, maybe someone in my, you know, who's had a touchpoint with me

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:37

in my past career would beg to differ.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:38

But actually if that hasn't stuck with you and resonated with you,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:41

good, bad, or otherwise, then clearly it didn't really have an impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:45

So I, I think that is interesting and my experience would be very similar to yours,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:50

which was until I had an opportunity to move into a more senior role and

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:57

act up and really think about being a leader, you know, what it means to be a

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:03

leader or have any conversations about sort of leadership development and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:09

until you are in that space and there's a little bit of me that worries if

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:12

that's a bit too late for some people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:14

Like, you're in it then and it's like,

Lee: 00:08:15

that's a whole other conversation.

Lee: 00:08:17

I'm sure we are gonna get into

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:20

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:21

And, and I think like my reflections is similar to yours, as in I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:24

worked with people once, I've been in leadership positions who have, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:29

interestingly either been very supportive and perhaps challenged my thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:33

I had one chief exec who, uh, in my second one-to-one with them said, so, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:38

where do you wanna be in five years time?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:39

Do you wanna be a chief exec?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:40

And I was, Uh, actually no thanks.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:43

And that's okay too, but that's, that's not, you know, where I want to head.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:46

But then had, have had other, you know, um, managers who have not

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

really been interested in, not in my development as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:54

And I, I think, you know, that that's just been something that I've reflected

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:58

on and, and found quite interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

So I guess to shift that along a little bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

What sort of support would've been useful to you from your organizations

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:09

to get you to think about whether or not being a leader was something

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:13

that you wanted from your career and support you to get there if it was?

Lee: 00:09:17

Yeah, I mean, I, I, it's a hard one to answer in one in some ways

Lee: 00:09:21

because I've always been very proactive in my own development, and therefore,

Lee: 00:09:27

when I say I didn't get support from my organization, I didn't get specific

Lee: 00:09:31

leadership support, I did get a lot of support because I made a case for things.

Lee: 00:09:35

They paid for me to do a master's.

Lee: 00:09:37

I went to conferences, all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:09:40

It wouldn't have happened if I hadn't made a clear case.

Lee: 00:09:45

And I suppose interesting reflection, linking it back to the leadership

Lee: 00:09:48

thing, is that they were happy to pay for me to do things to make me become

Lee: 00:09:53

more expert in my field, but less keen on you to do anything that would

Lee: 00:09:59

perhaps develop you more broadly.

Lee: 00:10:01

And it was almost maybe that fear that they're gonna lose you if they do that.

Lee: 00:10:05

And I think that's perhaps the crux of the issue that no one is having

Lee: 00:10:09

real conversations about people's ambitions and progression and all of

Lee: 00:10:15

that kind of stuff, because there's that fear, If they help you achieve

Lee: 00:10:19

that, then they're gonna lose you.

Lee: 00:10:21

And so I wonder whether what would be useful from organizations is a,

Lee: 00:10:25

is a bit of a mindset shift that actually broadly developing your people

Lee: 00:10:31

is beneficial to the organization whether you keep them or not.

Lee: 00:10:35

They're actually probably more likely to stay with you if you

Lee: 00:10:38

do that broader development.

Lee: 00:10:40

Of course, if you are in an expert area and there isn't that progression,

Lee: 00:10:44

then it's only natural you are gonna move, but you can't hold on and hold

Lee: 00:10:47

people back for your selfish reasons.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:50

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

Oh, I'm so on board with what you've said there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:53

And, and my experience again would be similar, that very happy to fund sort

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:57

of technical training, um, in, in the chosen expert field that I work in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:03

But a lot of experience has been less, happy to, as you say, fund things

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:09

that are, are much more broad and maybe about, you know, being a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:12

And it's interesting that is it Fear of losing people that stops organizations

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:17

wanting to invest in individuals and in groups of people in their organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:23

that have real potential, um, to step into that senior leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:27

I, is there also an element of it, maybe, that it feels a bit threatening?

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:31

um, to actually be encouraging people to step into that leadership space

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:36

early on and to be really open about how you're gonna develop people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:39

But, but my experience has definitely been that I've stayed longer in

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:43

organizations that have, uh, supported me from a leadership point of view

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:48

around things like mentoring and coaching and development programs

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:52

than I have in organizations who I feel have stifled that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:55

But I, I guess there's also something to consider if you are an individual

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:59

listening to this around your point about, you know, I definitely know you are,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:04

and I would say I'm too, have been very

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:05

proactive throughout our careers and seeking out our own development

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:08

opportunities and feeling quite confident in saying, no, actually this is what I

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:13

need, or I'm go, I am going to do this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

But there will be people who perhaps don't quite have the confidence

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:19

or, or courage to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

And, and that feels sad to me that actually then if you are in an

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:25

organization who, who, uh, isn't proactively kind of addressing

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:29

that or seeking out what leadership development needs there might be

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:33

that there are people sitting there kind of just feeling a bit stuck..

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:13

We've talked a little bit about being developed in your sort of expert area,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:17

which kind of leads me onto, um, the, the next thing that I, I wanted to raise in

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:22

the discussion, which, um, particularly in the sector in which I work, I have

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:27

often seen, um, people who are identified as being really good at their job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:33

Um, so whatever their chosen profession is, you know, whether that's in

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:37

finance, they're a great accountant, whether it's in a clinical role,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:41

I work in healthcare, so you know, they're a really brilliant nurse and

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:45

it's almost assumed by their leaders or by the organizations that that will

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:50

automatically make them a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:53

So then they get promotional opportunities to step into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:59

But often kind of no development plan to support them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:04

So what's your take on how organizations potentially could

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:07

start to tackle some of this?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:09

Oh, I love it when you do that face.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

I love it now that some people will see you do that face as well, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:13

It's like, yeah, this is right up Lee Street.

Lee: 00:14:16

I'm just rolling up my sleeves here, So this is like my big bug bear

Lee: 00:14:24

and actually probably one of the reasons that I do what I do in my business,

Lee: 00:14:29

because people are supported, developed, promoted within this kind of funnel.

Lee: 00:14:37

They go, they go upwards in a very straight line based on the

Lee: 00:14:40

area of expertise they have.

Lee: 00:14:42

And then suddenly they get to the more senior level.

Lee: 00:14:45

and this platform opens out and the expectations on that person triples,

Lee: 00:14:53

quadruples, whatever, usually in line with the amount of money that they're

Lee: 00:14:56

paid, and yet people are just left out there exposed and left to flounder.

Lee: 00:15:03

. And I think the issue is that organizations don't really think about

Lee: 00:15:07

the things that they want leaders to do in their organization and then

Lee: 00:15:11

give them that practical support.

Lee: 00:15:13

And I'm talking about things like writing business cases, how you, how

Lee: 00:15:16

do you do plans for cost savings?

Lee: 00:15:18

How do you make service change?

Lee: 00:15:19

How do you do strategy and planning?

Lee: 00:15:21

How do you deal with the board?

Lee: 00:15:23

Public engagement, talk about things that aren't your area of expertise in portfolio

Lee: 00:15:28

to a broader organization or stakeholder.

Lee: 00:15:30

You know, I could go on with the list of stuff that I've had to help people

Lee: 00:15:34

in my kind of corporate career and also now in, in the business that I run.

Lee: 00:15:40

And what happens is that leaders come across these things.

Lee: 00:15:45

in real time and they struggle to handle it.

Lee: 00:15:48

They get judged by others that they dunno what they're doing.

Lee: 00:15:52

Um, more pressures put on them because there's this expectation of

Lee: 00:15:55

delivery, because they're being paid so much money and it creates this

Lee: 00:15:59

really unsupportive environment.

Lee: 00:16:02

It makes the leader really bloody miserable and affects their

Lee: 00:16:06

confidence and questioning their ability to kind of take it forward.

Lee: 00:16:10

And at worst, leaders are left to fail and, and maybe even need to exit the role

Lee: 00:16:16

or, or get moved onto something else.

Lee: 00:16:19

And there are a lot of leaders that I work with who are people in that

Lee: 00:16:25

position where they're just trying to adjust to these new demands and

Lee: 00:16:29

expectations and figure out what kind of leader they actually want to be.

Lee: 00:16:33

So I think, you know what, what can an organization do to bring it back to your

Lee: 00:16:38

question is, In investing coaching, yes.

Lee: 00:16:42

That sounds like, of course I'd be promoting, promoting that, but invest

Lee: 00:16:45

in that safe space, so, so they can explore the, the nutty issues

Lee: 00:16:49

and, and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:16:51

Look at how you are preparing leaders in your organization,

Lee: 00:16:54

so, Can you buddy them up?

Lee: 00:16:56

Can you give them shadow opportunities?

Lee: 00:16:58

Can you give them a chance to really see what the type of things

Lee: 00:17:02

they're gonna have to deal with?

Lee: 00:17:03

And maybe give them that experience early on when it's okay to fail.

Lee: 00:17:07

And, and we've talked about psychological safety in, in the second, um, series.

Lee: 00:17:14

It is about creating that safety culture for, for leaders to start to explore and

Lee: 00:17:18

they need to do it that at an earlier stage in their career so that they

Lee: 00:17:23

can feel like they've, they've had the knocks and the trips in the falls before

Lee: 00:17:27

they get to, to that most senior level.

Lee: 00:17:30

I think we need to do a massive amount of work to challenge the typical

Lee: 00:17:36

leadership development programs that are out there because i, in my opinion,

Lee: 00:17:41

a lot of them offer the same stuff, and it doesn't necessarily close

Lee: 00:17:45

the gap that, you know, that list of stuff that I was just reeled off.

Lee: 00:17:49

It doesn't necessarily touch the sides on some of that stuff.

Lee: 00:17:52

And then I think there's a, thing about leaders who are already in senior

Lee: 00:17:57

leadership positions need to change their own expectations about new leaders

Lee: 00:18:02

and how they respond to new leaders.

Lee: 00:18:03

You can't expect someone who's been in the job for two minutes

Lee: 00:18:07

to perform, like someone who's been in the job for 10 years.

Lee: 00:18:11

Um, Yes, the person who's been in the job for 10 years might know some stuff,

Lee: 00:18:16

but they're not necessarily always gonna be the best person to know.

Lee: 00:18:19

So you can't model your expectations on someone who's been in that job for longer.

Lee: 00:18:23

Sorry, that's I, I literally could talk about this all day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

I do know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

I feel like that's, uh, the first soapbox moment, truly of series uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:31

three, which is excellent because it's only in the second episode, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:34

more of this as we go on, I'm sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:36

But yeah, there's so much in what you've said there, Lee, that really resonates

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:40

with me and that I I forgot when you said about, you know, leaders who've been

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:45

well established in an organization can't expect new leaders to just like step

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

in and and be like them, but nor should we want new leaders to be like them.

Lee: 00:18:52

No.

Lee: 00:18:53

Well, that's what we're here for, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:54

exactly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:55

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:56

Yes, yes, yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:57

Um, and there's something for me just about that, like, you know, we, we want to

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:01

create that diverse thinking, that diverse culture, that diverse conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:06

So we don't want 10 leaders who are all the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:09

We want these new people to come through and feel able to flourish and grow and

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:14

thrive with support, that they're not just left there, as you say, floundering

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:18

left to their own devices because they haven't had maybe that encouragement,

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

that exposure, that support before they've got into those senior leadership roles.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:27

So I, I absolutely do, um, agree with, with everything that you've said.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:32

I, I think there's also something for me, and you touched on it slightly, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:35

I'd like to explore it a bit more, uh, around the types of organizational.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:39

Like leadership programs that get put on, and my experience has been that

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:45

they are either, not actually leadership development programs at all, they're

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:49

management training programs, , and they're about really practical.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:54

And, and I know we've talked about, you know, needing to, to understand

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:58

a bit more about how your remit changes as a senior leader, but the

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:01

leadership development programs that, that I've often had exposure to, or

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:05

just about how to be a decent manager, basically, you know, managing sickness,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:10

having a challenging conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:12

Uh, how are you logging annual leave, like how are you managing performance

Lee: 00:20:16

But it's all down here, isn't it?

Lee: 00:20:18

And that's the thing, so, so those things might still be true and, but they're

Lee: 00:20:22

different when you get to a more senior level and the, the context changes

Lee: 00:20:27

and yet the training doesn't change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:29

yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

They're, they're badged as a leadership development program and really

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:33

their, their management training.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

Or I tend to find there's a kind of one size fits all approach.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:39

Um, and, and I know there are organizations like we have our way,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

so you know, and we have our value set and all of those things are

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:46

really important to, to be aligned.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:49

But I sometimes think that kind of blinkered one size fits all with what

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:53

leadership development we're gonna offer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

Because what we're trying to do is create a consistent approach and a consistent

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:00

offer for leaders doesn't work for people on a lot of levels, either because their

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

own, uh, kind of ways that they grow and develop and educate themselves, uh, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:10

are not what's on offer in that program.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:12

So it's kind of not diverse enough in terms of, of opportunity and, and ways

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:16

of learning, um, or I guess because it just sort of feels sometimes a

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:22

bit culty and I absolutely think, you know, values need to align when you

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:26

work in an organization for you to feel able to create that psychological

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:30

safety and work well with other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:33

But sometimes it can feel a bit like culty, like actually, you know, this

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

leadership development program's going to turn you into a bit of

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:40

a robot It's, again, back to that point, the same as every other leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:45

And actually I, I don't feel like that is what we want in this day

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:48

and age in terms of leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:50

So, sorry, having gone a really long-winded route around describing

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:54

all of that, I guess it's kind of with taking that on board, what,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:58

what are your views on what we need to consider in order to change some

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:02

of that approach to this kind of one size fits all management development

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

rather than leadership develop?

Lee: 00:22:09

Well, and I, I think the, the point you make about creating this like robotic

Lee: 00:22:14

production line of what we want our leaders to, to look like, gets to nub of

Lee: 00:22:19

the, the actual problem when you do the training, because it doesn't take into

Lee: 00:22:23

account people's individual styles and what will work for them and maybe even

Lee: 00:22:30

how they engage with learning and all of that kind of stuff is, is very different.

Lee: 00:22:34

So for me, you need to tailor it.

Lee: 00:22:37

Yes.

Lee: 00:22:37

Of, of course.

Lee: 00:22:38

I know that takes time and it takes effort and it, and it can be hard.

Lee: 00:22:42

You, you want to try and do things at scale because that's, that's the most cost

Lee: 00:22:45

effective and quickest way to do things.

Lee: 00:22:47

But you've got to be able to, to couple that with bespoke

Lee: 00:22:52

interventions with people at the right time on the right topic.

Lee: 00:22:57

So you need to be looking at, you know, what the topics that that person needs,

Lee: 00:23:00

how do you deliver it that's gonna best engage that person and and help them.

Lee: 00:23:06

And when is the right time to do that?

Lee: 00:23:08

So don't just say, oh, everyone's got come along on a Monday morning and

Lee: 00:23:10

we can do this once, once a month.

Lee: 00:23:12

And that's it.

Lee: 00:23:13

You are, because there's no, for me, there always lacks a So

Lee: 00:23:17

what factor to that training?

Lee: 00:23:19

Because, people will go for a one day thing or a week thing, or half a day,

Lee: 00:23:25

whatever it might be, or online training.

Lee: 00:23:27

And then the next day they go back to business and they forget it.

Lee: 00:23:30

They've made some notes.

Lee: 00:23:31

They've, they filed the notes away.

Lee: 00:23:33

They might have had a little breakthrough moment.

Lee: 00:23:34

There might be a couple of new tools that they've started to use, but it doesn't

Lee: 00:23:38

fundamentally shift the dial in the way that that the organization hopes it will

Lee: 00:23:42

shift and it's, it's, it's a nice to have but doesn't fundamentally change practice.

Lee: 00:23:48

So I think organizations have to look at how they make it sticky for people.

Lee: 00:23:53

And I think that's where things like coaching is really powerful because

Lee: 00:23:57

if you look at athletes, they all have performance coaches, for example, and in

Lee: 00:24:03

leadership it can feel like it's a nice to have to have a coach, or it's only for the

Lee: 00:24:08

most senior people in the organization.

Lee: 00:24:11

But what if you took an approach of actually let's get performance coaches

Lee: 00:24:16

to help support these individuals.

Lee: 00:24:18

And, and yes, it might be maybe the top 20 or the top 30 people that you identify

Lee: 00:24:22

in your organization that's got potential and, and you start to use that approach.

Lee: 00:24:27

But then it's looking at how can you almost train the trainer?

Lee: 00:24:31

How do you create a coach a, a coaching culture in the way that

Lee: 00:24:35

you lead and manage so that people are able to take that reflection

Lee: 00:24:40

and actually make the change happen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:43

I, yeah, I'm all for that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:45

I am absolutely here for kind of that personalization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:48

So I agree.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:50

You know, there is a time and a place maybe for that more organizational

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:53

wide, um, approach to some of that development, but that can't be, that the

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:57

only way you develop leaders or potential future leaders in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:02

Um, the coaching is really powerful and actually, you know, going into a

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:06

slightly different topic that I know we've covered before, really fits

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:10

with what type of culture you are trying to create in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:14

That your leaders are role modeling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:15

So that kind of coaching behavior and style of leadership can

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:19

be definitely really powerful.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:21

I, I also think there's things in there for me around, you know, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:25

mentioned some organizations wanting leadership development to feel and be

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:29

cost effective, but there is something about investing in people, whether that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

is through paid for, uh, development opportunities or whether that is through

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

some development opportunities, which might be free, like shadowing, like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:43

you know, potentially having an informal mentoring relationship, helping people to

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:48

grow their network of, of peer support.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:50

Um, but it's almost enabling people when they reach leadership positions

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:55

to know that it's okay to invest their time in that because it's an

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:58

important part of growing as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:01

Um, so I don't think that investment always has to be about kind of

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

hard cash of how much a development opportunity costs in terms of

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:08

an invoice being sent to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:10

But there is something about enabling people, um, to feel like it's okay

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:14

to invest in their own development.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:17

However, that's, that, you know, that transpires.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:20

. And, and in doing that, you are showing that you value those people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:24

that you value their leadership in your organization or that you value

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:28

their potential, um, to be leaders in your organization, which fits

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:32

so much with the retention piece that we, we briefly touched on.

Lee: 00:26:36

But it's, it's finding the right fit for, for the person and the objectives

Lee: 00:26:40

that, that, that you as an organization and that person is seeking to achieve.

Lee: 00:26:44

And I think sometimes the risk with organizations that, that think that

Lee: 00:26:49

they're doing that well is that they're, they're utilizing free resources.

Lee: 00:26:53

So it might be, oh, we've, we, we have internal coaches for example, I, I'm

Lee: 00:26:58

only talking about that cuz obviously that's, that's my area in, in interest.

Lee: 00:27:01

But they'll use that or they'll go to a free network that they can

Lee: 00:27:05

get that, which is all very well and good and it does have a place.

Lee: 00:27:10

But wouldn't it be far better to recognize if there is an expert intervention or

Lee: 00:27:16

a specialist type of coach or trainer or something that someone needs and and

Lee: 00:27:22

do the match in the right way at the right time, than just going, oh, well

Lee: 00:27:26

you've got access to the free stuff, but the free stuff might not challenge

Lee: 00:27:29

you in the way that you need to be challenged in your leadership growth.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:32

and it might not make you feel as valued as somebody actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:35

investing in you as a leader, and it might not make you want to stay there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

And uh, you know, I think one of the things that comes up a lot for me with

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:43

senior communicators that I work with as a mentor is around the fact that

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:48

probably up to that point where they've potentially worked with me, They've

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

been given exactly what you've said, oh, well, we've got trained mentors in

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:55

our organization, so use one of them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

And it's like actually quite often they don't have that professional

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:01

background and expertise that a mentor can often bring in terms of

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:04

experience and support and advice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:07

But equally, sometimes leaders don't want that in their own organization because

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:12

what they want to talk to a mentor or a coach or whomever, a support network,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:17

about feels like something that might be too tricky and challenging to talk

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:21

about with people that work with you.

Lee: 00:28:23

Yeah.

Lee: 00:28:23

And they've got to show their vulnerability.

Lee: 00:28:25

And it's, and it can be really hard, particularly if you're in a senior

Lee: 00:28:29

leadership position to, to show and, and we talk about showing up and saying,

Lee: 00:28:33

you know, This is hard, I dunno how to do this and that and the other,

Lee: 00:28:36

but that you've gotta go on a journey to get to that place to, to be able

Lee: 00:28:40

to be open with someone and say that.

Lee: 00:28:41

And you've got to be able to expose that vulnerability.

Lee: 00:28:44

And if you can't do that in a safe space first, you're never

Lee: 00:28:46

gonna do it in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:48

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:50

And I, I guess many people listening to this will already be in senior leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:55

positions and leaders in their own organizations who perhaps have that

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:59

power, um, to, uh, think about, uh, how they want to develop future leaders or

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:05

existing leaders in their organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:06

So if, if we are talking to one of those individuals, you know, what can I, as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:11

leader start to think about in terms of how I can do things differently and help

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:18

develop other leaders in my place of work?

Lee: 00:29:23

So I don't think there's anything really new, um, in

Lee: 00:29:26

terms of what I've already said.

Lee: 00:29:27

So I've, I'll just repeat the, the three things I think that

Lee: 00:29:30

were most important to me.

Lee: 00:29:32

So what, so one is that as leaders taking that coaching approach to support other

Lee: 00:29:37

leaders gonna always be beneficial.

Lee: 00:29:41

The high performance organizations always take that approach.

Lee: 00:29:44

I think you need to think about the person and you need to stop worrying

Lee: 00:29:49

about them, about losing them, and they don't need this kind of development

Lee: 00:29:55

for this role or for these objectives.

Lee: 00:29:58

You know, you think holistically about the type of person you are helping

Lee: 00:30:01

to shape and the impact they can have on the organization or in other

Lee: 00:30:04

organizations that they go on to work.

Lee: 00:30:07

And I think there's, there's self-work you need to do as a

Lee: 00:30:09

leader on your own attitudes and behaviors and your expectations.

Lee: 00:30:12

Going back to that thing around, you can't expect someone newly

Lee: 00:30:15

into a role to be performing like, like you are in your role.

Lee: 00:30:19

And I, and I say that being someone who has set really high expectations of my

Lee: 00:30:23

team in the past and have had to do a lot of work to go, well, maybe they don't

Lee: 00:30:28

think and feel the same as me, or maybe just cuz I did it this way doesn't mean

Lee: 00:30:32

that, that they're gonna do it this way.

Lee: 00:30:33

So, you know, it, we are all human.

Lee: 00:30:36

This is a natural thing that happens, but we all need to work on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:39

Yeah, I, I would just build on those points by saying, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:43

actually as a leader, you, you know, you do manage people in your organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:48

that, that work directly to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:50

So actually have those appraisals give meaningful feedback to people

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

that will help their development.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:56

Uh, don't just wait a year to do that appraising and talk about their personal

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:01

development plan, which so often happens in organizations as a tick box

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:05

exercise to say everyone's got one and then it's not revisited for a year.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:08

Like, Bring that to life for the people that are in your leadership team that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:12

are leading, managing, and supporting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:15

And I think also as a leader, I think you have a role to identify

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:19

those learning opportunities for individuals as well as organizationally.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:24

Because I don't think we should just be expecting people to come up with

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:27

their own, because quite often, You know, it, it takes more conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:32

than just the self-reflection to work out what would make somebody a

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:35

more impactful or effective leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:37

So, you know, do those interventions, identify those opportunities

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:41

and, and offer them to people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:43

Don't expect people just to be merrily sat away, you know, at home

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:47

doing their own, doing their own development, I say in Bunny ears.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:51

So, so hopefully, um, that last bit of conversation gave some helpful how

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:56

tos because we do always like to end an episode with some practical, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:01

things that people can consider and, and hopefully do as this is a year of action.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:05

Let's go more for the doing than the, uh, considering.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:09

Um, is, is there, I love that you put your hand up, please.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:12

I was just about to say to you, is there anything burning that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:14

want to, to share before we end this conversation about how organizations

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:19

can support leadership development?

Lee: 00:32:21

I'm feeling feisty this series.

Lee: 00:32:23

I

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:23

Uh,

Lee: 00:32:24

what there, there's just something

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:25

I gotta get ready for this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:27

Maybe we do need to bring the gin back.

Lee: 00:32:30

Well, no, that's, that's when, when the extrovert comes out of me, . But I,

Lee: 00:32:36

I think my final thing is w as leaders in, in this context of this conversation.

Lee: 00:32:42

We need to stop settling for mediocre.

Lee: 00:32:45

I think we need to be honest about what's re required for our people and we've

Lee: 00:32:49

got to start challenging the status quo.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:52

Love.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:53

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:54

You are feeling feisty this series, aren't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:57

We're only episode two.

Lee: 00:32:58

Something in the waters.

Lee: 00:32:59

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:00

I can't, on that note, I cannot wait for the next episode to see

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:03

where that's gonna take the conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:05

Um, thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:07

Thank you to everyone who's listened, watched, however you are engaging

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:10

with us, um, we really appreciate it.