Introvert vs Extrovert ... who leads best?

Lee: 00:00:00

oh, bloody hell, just go and play your toys and let us get on with the work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:02

I'm getting real insight now into how introverts

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

think about us extroverts.

Lee: 00:00:46

Hello, welcome to another week in the British heat wave that is just

Lee: 00:00:54

slowly killing us at the minute.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

Oh, sweltering, sweltering, I feel like I'm melting into my chair.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:00

I've done it again.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

Moaned about the weather.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

It's too hot.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:03

It's too cold.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:04

It's definitely too hot right now.

Lee: 00:01:06

Yes, we are both, thankfully you can't see us, because we are

Lee: 00:01:09

just short of sitting here in our bra and pants talking to each.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:13

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:13

It's like at school, when you forget your PE kit, you gotta

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:15

do it in your vest and pants.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

You know, I wouldn't be adverse to a vest and pants day this week it is so hot.

Lee: 00:01:22

Anyway, today's episode, we are going to be talking about leading

Lee: 00:01:27

as an introvert or extrovert.

Lee: 00:01:29

So if you followed us in any way, shape or form, you can probably

Lee: 00:01:33

guess where we fall on the spectrum.

Lee: 00:01:34

I'm definitely team introvert, Carrie Ann's team extrovert.

Lee: 00:01:39

So the things that we do are different.

Lee: 00:01:42

We behave differently, what makes us tick is different.

Lee: 00:01:45

We have some similarities as well, but our inner workings

Lee: 00:01:49

can be quite different at times.

Lee: 00:01:51

And I suppose we wanted to explore what that might mean from a leadership

Lee: 00:01:54

perspective, whether you are introvert or extrovert, what awareness you might need,

Lee: 00:01:59

how you might have to adapt your approach.

Lee: 00:02:02

And what the advantages and disadvantages are of being that way.

Lee: 00:02:07

So Carrie Ann start us off as an extrovert.

Lee: 00:02:10

I know you don't often like to go first, but what does

Lee: 00:02:16

being an extrovert mean to you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:19

What does being an extrovert mean to me?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

Well, I guess it's an interesting one because in having to reflect a bit more

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:26

knowing this conversation was coming up, I just started to think a lot about myself

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

and what, typically what an extrovert would be categorized as, or perceived

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:36

as which is usually on the plus side.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:39

So I'm gonna go with some pluses, you know, very sociable, confident

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:43

person, outgoing, enthusiastic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

Probably someone who's willing to step up and take the lead,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:50

cuz they feel quite comfortable and confident in that position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:53

Definitely from an extrovert's point of view, I would say wanting

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:56

to talk out problems talk things through to reach a solution for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:01

But I think in saying those things, there are obviously some downsides

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

because the flip side of all of those things is you can be perceived

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:08

as the negative versions of those.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

So potentially loud overbearing someone who maybe doesn't let

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

other people have the space to share and contribute their ideas.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:19

So that was where I started off in my thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

And then obviously that got me to think more about me and how I fit into all

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

of that and how that feels for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

And I guess from the point of view of, of some of those traits I absolutely agree

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:33

with them and I see them in myself, but I think it's interesting because sometimes

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:37

circumstance, I think can dictate how much of my extroverted nature is in play.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:43

And I think the ones for me, probably that I often can wrestle with

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:49

a bit is around the confidence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

So I'm sure there'd be people who would know me, who would just think I'm a

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:54

completely confident person, happy to put myself out there, but there are

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:58

lots of occasions in work life and normal life where actually, I don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

feel that confident, but maybe it is my extroverted nature, which helps me put

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:07

on a bit more of a facade and wing it a bit and to, and to get through that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:11

But some of those preconceptions of what being an extrovert really means

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:15

can sometimes I think have pitfalls for you because people make assumptions

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:19

that you are like that all the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:21

And I'm sure when, when we talk about what it feels like to be an introvert,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:26

there'll be times when you'll explain that you are not always coming across

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:30

as somebody who's introverted in nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:32

So you hosting this podcast, for example, is probably something

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:35

that many people would think an introvert wouldn't do, but you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:39

there comfortably doing it, but that

Lee: 00:04:41

but not getting a word in edgeways.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:44

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

Not getting a word in with me being such an extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:48

I love that is brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:50

So that was where I started off thinking about what are some

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:52

of the traits of extroverts and how are extroverts perceived?

Lee: 00:04:56

What do you think are your most prominent extrovert traits?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:00

Oh, my most prominent traits, I would definitely say, and I I'm saying

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:05

this from a leadership space, I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:08

Wanting to talk things out to reach a solution.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:11

I definitely would say something that for me feels quite important and

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:15

something that I do quite a lot in my team with people that I work with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:20

I would definitely say that one's there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:22

I would definitely say in terms of prominent traits for me I feel like I

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

like to come up with ideas and then I get over excited and then I share them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:31

And then I it's almost like I can't stop sharing them and I have to consider

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:35

that other people need to have that space to come into that conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:39

So I think I can be quite domineering in conversations, but I also, now

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:45

at this age and at this point in my life, recognize that in myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:48

So I can put things in place to balance that out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:51

I would definitely say that and being very sociable and along with that

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:56

comes some oversharing sometimes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:57

And I often introduce myself as an oversharer in various

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:01

different situations.

Lee: 00:06:03

You really, well, you, maybe you would wanna be a fly on the wall.

Lee: 00:06:06

The conversation we had Pre me hitting the record button today, but I can definitely

Lee: 00:06:10

confirm that Carrie-Ann is an oversharer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:14

Yeah, I'm so glad we weren't recording that one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:16

I think I was almost oversharing on my partner's behalf, in his

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

absence as well, which is terrible.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

Isn't it?

Lee: 00:06:23

So do you think that domineering in conversations and oversharing,

Lee: 00:06:29

do you think they are perhaps your biggest challenges or the area that

Lee: 00:06:33

cause you the, the biggest challenge?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:35

I guess for me in terms of the challenges and when I reflected on

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:40

this prior to having this conversation, I did think what are the things that I

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:44

have to not necessarily force myself to do, but I've had to learn to do over time

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:49

to maybe combat some of my extroverted characteristics and to enable others

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:55

to fully participate in conversations, projects and that kind of thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:00

And I think for me, yeah, there is something about I get carried away by

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:06

an idea or the creativity of something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

And I have to remind myself to make space for other people to

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:13

be part of that conversation and to be able to have an opinion.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:17

And I also have to remind myself that not everybody is going to react to things the

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:22

same way that I'm going to react to them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:24

So I think I probably react quite in the moment to something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:29

And when something happens, I almost immediately know that I've got a

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:32

response to that, and I'm very happy to share what that response is, but I have

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:37

to be very aware, particularly in a leadership context that other people

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:42

might need time and space to reflect on what's just happened before they can

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:46

formulate and articulate a response.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:48

So I think over time, I've had to learn to adapt my style and my approach in

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:54

certain situations to be able to ensure that everybody who's part of that gets

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

the opportunity to contribute in the same way that I might be contributing myself.

Lee: 00:08:05

And how have you learned that, that you've even needed to do that?

Lee: 00:08:09

Is it through trial and error?

Lee: 00:08:12

Is it through specific feedback you've had.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:15

I guess a bit of everything really.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:17

I think definitely for me, my own personal observation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:20

So coming up through my career, I think observing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:23

There have been times where I've probably had the most air space in a room.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:28

And then being able to reflect on that and thinking actually there's probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:32

people that have got even better ideas, suggestions, input than I perceive

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:37

myself to have and actually I've maybe not enabled them to contribute that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:42

So probably reflection and put a sense of bit feeling a bit guilty, probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:48

that actually I've taken up some space that someone else could take up.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:51

Like I've had my time and it's time for someone else to have that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:55

Really.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:56

I think, through working with lots of different people in team settings as well,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

I would say you observe how other people operate and if you are someone who's

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:07

willing to be adaptable and flexible, you therefore flex to enable others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:11

So I have worked in teams where my immediate leadership team for example,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:16

has got somebody who's exactly like me in terms of extroverted nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

And then the total opposite of me and actually having some Frank conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:24

about, we are gonna need to deal with this situation slightly differently

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:27

to enable that person who is the opposite of us to go away, reflect,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:32

absorb, and come back and take time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:34

So actually we need to like slow down the pace of something, for example, to enable

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:39

that person to be able to contribute.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:41

So I think there's a lot about observing and perceiving how others are acting

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:45

and reacting to you in a space as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:48

Interestingly, I'm trying to work out, I've probably subtly had feedback from

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:52

people that maybe I've subconsciously taken on board, but a few times when

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:57

I have said, I feel like I'm being too much in that space, it's been

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:01

quite interesting because I felt that and other people, unless they're

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:05

being super polite, of course have said, oh no, we haven't noticed that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:10

But I dunno whether that's because I'm so aware of it that I moderate it.

Lee: 00:10:13

So I've heard you mention a few times that you are someone

Lee: 00:10:17

who thrives around people.

Lee: 00:10:21

Do you prefer being around introverts that you can, I suppose, hold court

Lee: 00:10:26

and, and get all the attention or do you need energy from other extroverts?

Lee: 00:10:32

How does it work?

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

It is a weird one and I think that's a really

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:35

important point to make as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:37

That sometimes when we talk about being extroverted, it isn't necessarily

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:40

all about your personality traits.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:42

It is about where you get that energy from to enable you to feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:47

creative, motivated, productive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:50

And for me, I definitely feel at my most productive and motivated when

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:55

I am working with other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:57

So you are right I do thrive on the energy of others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

That's not to say that I couldn't operate solo and in my own space and by myself,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:05

but I do find that more of a challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:07

If I had to do that 24 7, I would find that really challenging for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:12

But for me, I guess I like a mix because I think if you are all extroverts

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:17

in a room, it's really hard work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:21

it's definitely feels like really hard work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:23

And I think it can sometimes create a sort of unhealthy competitive nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:29

If you are just surrounded by people who are exactly like you from

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:33

that extroverted point of view.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:35

So for me, I think it's a mix of the energies and actually sometimes I

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:40

would much prefer to be around more introverts than extroverts, not to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:45

hold court and be center of attention, but actually to practice that point,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:49

I was making about moderating myself a bit and sometimes like, yeah, I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:53

operating like too high energy and I need to be grounded a bit more.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:57

So actually being around more introverted people by nature can help with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:01

So, I think, I wouldn't say I prefer extroverts to introverts in

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:06

terms of who I get my energy from.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:08

It's definitely a mix of both.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:10

And I would probably say in an ideal world, I wouldn't want to

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:13

be surrounded by all extroverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

I think that would feel too challenging and exhausting.

Lee: 00:12:20

The one of the things I always reflect is obviously my introverted

Lee: 00:12:24

nature of working with you extroverted.

Lee: 00:12:27

But I do think that brings a really nice blend into the way that we work.

Lee: 00:12:31

So I am a planner and I like to get organized and stuff.

Lee: 00:12:35

You're a winger,, we've talked about this before.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:37

Yeah, I, I love you so much for being a planner.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:40

Lee, thank you for being a planner.

Lee: 00:12:43

So, but you can do all the talking for us when we are in social situations.

Lee: 00:12:46

So it's like, I think like ying to my ying to my yang or whatever

Lee: 00:12:51

the other way, yang to my ying.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:55

I do think like if you get that right mix, it can be

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:57

a really powerful combination.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:59

And that's not to say that a group of introverts working together are

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:03

not gonna also have like a level of success and extroverts the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:08

But I do think it is about getting that balance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:10

And, and I think that's outside of even like, are you

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:12

an extrovert or an introvert?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:14

Just like you say, what are you good at?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:15

And some of that will potentially be dictated by that extrovert introvert

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:20

conversation, but some of it will be about skillset and experience.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:24

So yeah, I like to think we are a perfect balance and blend Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:23

So lovely Lee, we have heard plenty from me, unsurprisingly about what it

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:29

feels like to be an extrovert by nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:32

So I am of course, as well, the listeners be interested in as

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:36

a self-proclaimed introvert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:38

What makes you tick?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:40

Come on, tell me what is it that makes you tick

Lee: 00:14:42

What makes me tick?

Lee: 00:14:43

I think for me, I like space to think and plan.

Lee: 00:14:48

I love a plan.

Lee: 00:14:50

I mean, I have plans for my plans.

Lee: 00:14:52

I'm one of those kind of people and listening and understanding I do not

Lee: 00:14:56

like to just talk for talking sake but I will tell you when you were talking

Lee: 00:15:04

about extrovertism and confidence, I think the reason the whole construct

Lee: 00:15:14

of introvert extrovert can be a bit of a touchy subject for some is around

Lee: 00:15:20

the word confidence that's associated.

Lee: 00:15:23

So whilst do you think, or you mentioned that extroverts can be seen as overly

Lee: 00:15:27

confident and that doesn't always mean I'm often tarnished with the, oh, well

Lee: 00:15:32

you're shy or unconfident because I'm quiet and I, I think they swap out the

Lee: 00:15:39

word introvert for unconfident or shy.

Lee: 00:15:43

And I think that could be really damaging to particularly people who

Lee: 00:15:47

are introverted because it, it does make them perhaps withdraw even more.

Lee: 00:15:52

If they are tarnished with those things.

Lee: 00:15:54

I'm far from an unconfident person.

Lee: 00:15:57

And in my career, I've always been very confident.

Lee: 00:15:59

I'm a confident in my opinions.

Lee: 00:16:00

I'm confident in my expertise in the work that I give.

Lee: 00:16:03

I just don't talk about it or shout about it, or don't feel like I

Lee: 00:16:07

need to pipe up every two seconds.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:09

Yeah,

Lee: 00:16:09

Sorry.

Lee: 00:16:09

soap box straight away.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:11

soapbox moment, straight away, confident, straight on that soapbox.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:15

And I, I think you are right that confidence piece is that tricky thing

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:18

that Muddy's the, water's a bit, when you talk about being an extrovert or an

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:21

introvert, because of those assumptions, that all introverts are not confident

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:26

and all extroverts are overly confident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:28

And actually it's definitely not that straightforward.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:30

It's really good of you to highlight that point, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:33

Lee, but what does make you tick?

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:34

Come on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:35

You've not answered the question.

Lee: 00:16:36

make me tick?

Lee: 00:16:37

Well, I think what makes me tick is potentially different

Lee: 00:16:39

to what makes me an introvert.

Lee: 00:16:41

So there's stuff that I enjoy, but I suppose the common thread of it

Lee: 00:16:46

is that I like to take my time.

Lee: 00:16:49

I like to perhaps do reflection on my own or work in smaller groups.

Lee: 00:16:54

I can get my energy sapped if I'm around too many people for too larger time.

Lee: 00:17:00

And I've had to learn over my career how to really balance that because I

Lee: 00:17:04

could burn out quite quickly trying to keep up with these blooming extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:10

I know we're a pain aren't we.

Lee: 00:17:11

So yeah, I.

Lee: 00:17:13

Think for me, it's that thinking time and reflection piece.

Lee: 00:17:17

That's the, I think and listening, I would say the things that set us

Lee: 00:17:21

apart and certainly I think are some of the superpowers that I utilize.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:26

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:27

So, you said super power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:28

So would you consider those to be your sort of most prominent introverted traits?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:32

If we're going to use labels, you're listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:35

Your reflection, your ability to work, maybe a bit more solo and

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:40

not needing all of that external energy source all of the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:43

So in terms of what you've talked about around what it's like to be an introvert,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:48

what would you consider to be some of the most challenging introverted traits

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:53

that have cropped up for you in terms of your career and your leadership style?

Lee: 00:17:58

I think quietness has probably been a really big challenge for me in my career.

Lee: 00:18:05

Certainly getting told numerous times by people that I need to speak

Lee: 00:18:08

up more in meetings was something that frequently would come up in one

Lee: 00:18:14

to ones or in meetings itself, we haven't heard from you or whatever.

Lee: 00:18:17

So that sense of is my voice really being heard.

Lee: 00:18:20

And as I've said, I don't really talk for talking sake.

Lee: 00:18:27

I wasn't talking on every agenda point in a meeting for example, I

Lee: 00:18:31

only spoke up when I felt that I had a value to add, and it really

Lee: 00:18:36

stressed me out when I started to get feedback that I was perhaps too quiet.

Lee: 00:18:41

Because it was that thing of, oh, if, if they think this, are they

Lee: 00:18:45

all thinking that I'm a bit rubbish?

Lee: 00:18:47

Do they think I've not got anything of value to add?

Lee: 00:18:50

and so it was making me more self-conscious I think of it.

Lee: 00:18:53

But over time I learnt about being an introvert.

Lee: 00:18:57

It didn't have a label, really.

Lee: 00:18:58

When I was starting out in my career, it's only really something I've

Lee: 00:19:02

been aware of in maybe the last five to seven years, certainly in

Lee: 00:19:08

the bulk of my corporate career.

Lee: 00:19:11

I don't think people were really you'd use the extrovert phrase, but I don't

Lee: 00:19:14

think introverts were necessarily labeled.

Lee: 00:19:17

You were labeled shy, unconfident and all of those other things.

Lee: 00:19:21

So it was only as I started to learn, there are other people who

Lee: 00:19:24

were like this and I can better articulate who I am and what makes

Lee: 00:19:30

me tick that I realized it was okay.

Lee: 00:19:33

And I actually was still being really effective.

Lee: 00:19:36

And I suppose I just had a bit more of a screw you attitude.

Lee: 00:19:40

So I was like, right I'm not gonna stress about whether I talk up in this meeting

Lee: 00:19:43

or not because people were learning to listen to me when I did speak, because

Lee: 00:19:48

I was adding value at those points.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:50

And I think it's really good to flip it into the positives as you

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:54

have there, cuz I think talking about introvert and extrovert, I think often.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:00

It can be about the more negative side of things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:03

So those traits being, you know, you are shy, you're not confident

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:07

or you're overbearing, you're loud.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:08

You're too confident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:10

And often I don't think people spend enough time looking at the positives

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:13

of having some of those traits.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:15

So I think that reflection piece that you've done to be able to consider

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:19

that is a really important thing to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:21

And I'm sure we'll touch on that a bit more as the episode continues, but I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:25

gonna put you on the spot as you did with me to say, who do you prefer working

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:29

with the extroverts or introverts?

Lee: 00:20:32

It's almost like you, I, I like a bit of both, so I like being around extroverts

Lee: 00:20:37

because they take the pressure off of me.

Lee: 00:20:38

I don't, they can be really chatty and people orientated.

Lee: 00:20:42

They can keep a conversation going.

Lee: 00:20:44

I just need to be a participant rather than a driver of the conversation.

Lee: 00:20:48

I love the insights that an introvert or group of introverts

Lee: 00:20:53

can bring by observing by listening.

Lee: 00:20:57

But bloody hell it can be awkward if you are all in a group and no one really

Lee: 00:21:00

wants to go first and talk and that's that

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:03

Oh, that's like my idea of, I dunno if that's my idea

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:06

of hell or heaven, cause it I'd just be straight up like right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:09

I'll start then if nobody else wants to.

Lee: 00:21:13

so it is a mixture of both.

Lee: 00:21:15

I do think it can be overwhelming if you are surrounded by loads of

Lee: 00:21:21

extroverts because as you've said that competitiveness, as an introvert who's

Lee: 00:21:26

sitting, reflecting and watching you see that competitiveness play out and it can

Lee: 00:21:31

be like, oh, bloody hell, just go and play your toys and let us get on with the work.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

I'm getting real insight now into how introverts

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:39

think about us extroverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:41

This is very interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:43

This is very interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:44

I'm gonna take note of all of this for the next time we have a co-working session.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:48

Lee, when you actually give me my toys to go off and play with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:52

Oh, I'll know what that's all about.

Lee: 00:21:56

I say that when there's a group of extroverts, I, I dunno,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:59

many of us.

Lee: 00:22:02

What's the collective term for a group of extroverts,

Lee: 00:22:05

a cacophony of extrover

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:08

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

Maybe that's that's one for the listeners pop in the chat any terms

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:13

you think would describe a group of introverts or a group of extroverts

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:16

based on your own experience?

Lee: 00:22:18

So we've talked about the pros and cons of an introvert and an extrovert,

Lee: 00:22:24

and we've outed some of our own characteristics in the conversation.

Lee: 00:22:29

Do you think there's one way or another, that is better for leading?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:37

Do you know what I've been thinking about this, and it

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:39

was really interesting because when I was doing some research for this

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:42

episode, I was Googling extroverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:44

And every time I Googled anything about extroverts, most of the searches

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:48

that came back were about introverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:49

So I don't know if that is telling us something about, I know you mentioned

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

introversion seems to be something that we've talked about a lot more recently

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:57

that we didn't talk about maybe, you know, seven years ago or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:00

So I thought that was quite interesting, cuz a lot of what came up was

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:03

around introverted leaders and how many great leaders are introverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:07

So I just thought that was quite an interesting reflection, but for me I guess

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:11

I don't think there is one or the other way that's better, but I think if you are.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:18

I dunno, severe is the wrong word to use I don't mean severe, but if

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

you are an extreme extrovert, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:23

That's the word I wanted.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:24

Extreme extrovert or an extreme introvert, I think it probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:28

will feel quite challenging to take on those leadership positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:32

So I think you either need to not be that extreme, or you need to be really aware of

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

how you moderate some of your extroverted or introverted behaviors, depending

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:44

which one of those spectrums you are on

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:46

. So I think you need to really be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:50

to tone down something that might be really natural in your extroverted

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:55

nature to enable introverts to be able to participate more for example-

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:00

and I know we've talked about that already, but I would say the one thing

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:04

through my own career that I found quite interesting, and I've had a range

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

of leaders in my working life who've been either extroverts or introverts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:13

I do wonder if introverts are more aware of how much more effort

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:19

they need to make to manage some of their introverted traits.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:23

And I don't want to stereotype extroverts by saying we're not aware

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:26

of it so we just carry on regardless.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:29

But I have worked with a number of people in leadership positions who, when I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:33

complimented them on how well they've handled a situation; maybe it's like a

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:38

big public speaking thing or a group of really disgruntled people and I've gone,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:43

oh God, you, you know, you were really brilliant I've counted more times when

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:47

one of those people has said to me, it's really nice of you to say that to me,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:50

because I'm an introvert and I find that situation really hard and I've never had

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:55

somebody when I've given them feedback as a leader, say, thanks so much for

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:58

sharing that cause I'm an extrovert and I find being like that really difficult.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:02

So I think that's just quite interesting that a lot of leaders that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:05

I've worked with I probably worked with more introverted leaders, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:09

they have been more open about how challenging they find their leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:13

position because they have to step outside of their natural way of being

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:17

in terms of their introverted nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:19

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:19

That was a really long-winded and extroverted way of

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:22

giving you an answer lee.

Lee: 00:25:24

It's an interesting reflection because I think I would say that the

Lee: 00:25:29

majority of leaders I've worked under have also been Introverts and have

Lee: 00:25:35

had to actively work on certain areas.

Lee: 00:25:38

If I think about my peers in leadership teams, I always think

Lee: 00:25:43

the extroverts have been the ones that have caused the most challenge.

Lee: 00:25:47

And yeah, so I dunno whether that's an interesting dynamic that it

Lee: 00:25:51

creates in maybe a frustration that extroverts have of introverted leaders.

Lee: 00:25:57

For example,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

Interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

Interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:01

So back to the original question, if one or the other makes a

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:04

better leader, I'm not sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

I think you have to be a, a good balance.

Lee: 00:26:08

it goes back to that awareness, doesn't it?

Lee: 00:26:10

That awareness and, and working on it.

Lee: 00:26:12

And as we said, in previous episodes, any strength that you have becomes

Lee: 00:26:18

a weakness, if you overplay it.

Lee: 00:26:19

And I think absolutely is true in whether you are an introvert or extrovert.

Lee: 00:26:24

I think there's an assumption that extroverts are better as leaders

Lee: 00:26:30

possibly because they overtly have more charisma or they speak a bit more.

Lee: 00:26:36

So that visibility is a lot higher.

Lee: 00:26:38

But as you've said, some of the most successful leaders

Lee: 00:26:41

are, or were introverts.

Lee: 00:26:43

So maybe that's because they have, again, I'm not just stereotyping here there's

Lee: 00:26:49

evidence to say they tend to be more strategic in the way that they think, and

Lee: 00:26:55

that they're more likely to think through the risks rather than just take a risk.

Lee: 00:26:59

So maybe it's that tortoise and hare situation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:03

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:04

And I think for me, it's also then about the leadership team you build up

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:09

around you to complement some of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:11

And the point that we've both made that our own personal experiences have

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:14

been, we don't particularly like being solely in a team of introverts or

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:19

extroverts that we need that mix and that hopefully you can then learn to get

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:23

that balance right so that you actually have people that are working with you

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:26

that complement some of the areas that you maybe find more challenging or

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:29

that are more of an effort for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

So you get that nice blend.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:33

But I think it is about that insight to knowing, a) what makes you tick?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:38

And as all the questions we've asked each other today, you probably do

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:41

need to ask those of yourselves to really get that insight into how

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:45

you can then work best as a leader, knowing what you know about yourself.

Lee: 00:27:49

Talking about the team dynamic that concept of the loudest person hogs the

Lee: 00:27:55

discussion or the person who has the most energy gets the attention, or has

Lee: 00:27:59

their point land more succinctly or, or with more emphasis, how can we as a

Lee: 00:28:07

leader, make sure we are utilizing all the superpowers of our teams and look,

Lee: 00:28:14

beyond that introvert extrovert veneer?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:18

So I think as a leader, you have a responsibility to be a facilitator

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:22

mediator at all times, because it is your job to be creating the space, whatever

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:27

that might look like for everyone to be able to input and have a say and

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:32

share their thinking and their ideas.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:34

So again, you have to have had that kind of observation of your own team about,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:40

okay, how did these people flourish best in what environment and space can

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:44

I get the best out of these people?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:46

And, I know the people who are in my own teams that are not gonna be the

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:50

people who are gonna chuck an idea in straight away into a conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:54

they need time and space to go away.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:56

But I also know that often their ideas are the ones that are really

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:59

brilliant because they've taken that time to, to reflect on it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:02

I think it is about that ability as a leader to make sure that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:07

creating the time and the space for everybody, no matter where they are

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:12

on any of those spectrums to be able to contribute and that you know the

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:16

people that you work with well enough to understand how you might be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:21

to help them contribute in the way that feels most comfortable for them.

Lee: 00:29:25

I think there's some big organizational approaches as

Lee: 00:29:28

well, that need to be reviewed.

Lee: 00:29:31

Potentially.

Lee: 00:29:32

If you look at the direction of travel, say with open plan working, or if you

Lee: 00:29:37

look at the whole concept of let's work collaboratively or brainstorm

Lee: 00:29:43

as a group and all of that, that perhaps leans more into the power

Lee: 00:29:47

of an extrovert than an introvert.

Lee: 00:29:49

I think the pandemic has changed the way people are working and how organizations

Lee: 00:29:56

are run, but not necessarily thinking of it from a balanced viewpoint.

Lee: 00:30:01

I know in, I've talked about this book before and I love it quiet by

Lee: 00:30:06

Susan Cain and she's talking about the things that affect the workforce.

Lee: 00:30:13

I think she said something like up to half of your workforce could be introverted.

Lee: 00:30:18

And so how do you utilize them in the right way for the tasks perhaps

Lee: 00:30:23

that they've got as superpowers?

Lee: 00:30:25

How do you look at the environment that you're creating?

Lee: 00:30:29

She was citing evidence that said open plan offices have been found to

Lee: 00:30:35

reduce productivity, impair memory.

Lee: 00:30:37

It's been associated with higher turnover and sickness

Lee: 00:30:40

insecurity, lack of motivation.

Lee: 00:30:43

Workers are more likely to experience stress and that personal and confidential

Lee: 00:30:49

discussions that perhaps were being have previously are no longer happening in that

Lee: 00:30:55

open plan dynamic, which is actually, I suppose disabling connection in some ways.

Lee: 00:31:00

And I thought that was fascinating.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:02

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:02

And it's really funny cuz I remember the first job I had where we went

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:06

to an open office environment from having your own fixed desk.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:10

It was still kind of open plan, but it was more like hot desk in you

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:13

can sit anywhere, work with anyone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:15

You don't have your own desk.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:16

This team's not got that office cordoned off, you can go in there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:20

And actually the impact it had on quite a lot of people, not having

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:23

their own personal space in the office that they could create and make

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:28

their own was actually more dramatic than I anticipated it would be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:31

And people like, where do I put my photos?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:34

Where do I put my stuff that gives me a boost during the day, cause I've got

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:36

little postcards with sayings on that motivate me and all of that kind of stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:40

And I was quite surprised, but also myself thought, yeah, I'm not sure if

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:44

I'm keen on this just rock up anywhere, sit with anyone and I'm an extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:48

So goodness knows what that might be like for people where almost the security and

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:53

safety of having their own personal space in the office that they've made their

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:56

own probably helps them in terms of how they conduct themselves in the workplace.

Lee: 00:32:01

Yeah, we had the same and I remember some people in management doing the

Lee: 00:32:05

whole, it's just things just go over it.

Lee: 00:32:08

And we'll give you a little locker that you can put your stuff in

Lee: 00:32:11

if that's the issue and failed to see why people fundamentally

Lee: 00:32:16

could have had a problem with it.

Lee: 00:32:18

But that goes back down to perhaps everyone looking through their own

Lee: 00:32:25

lens of what they think would be acceptable or not versus actually

Lee: 00:32:30

talking and engaging and understanding.

Lee: 00:32:33

And even how you talk and engage and understand might have to be adapted in

Lee: 00:32:38

different ways to get stuff out of people.

Lee: 00:32:40

I hate being put on the spot.

Lee: 00:32:42

You think of meetings, people trying to get me to come out of my shell, put you

Lee: 00:32:47

on the spot and now that's the worst.

Lee: 00:32:50

That's the worst situation for me.

Lee: 00:32:51

Yes, I can think on the spot, but I would feel like I've not given a

Lee: 00:32:57

valuable enough response than I would, if I had some time to go away

Lee: 00:33:01

and consider the question first.

Lee: 00:33:03

It's really interesting the direction of travel and who is

Lee: 00:33:07

driving that direction of travel, are they introverted extroverted?

Lee: 00:33:11

Is it really looking at what people truly want or understanding and

Lee: 00:33:16

digging down to the reasons behind why people perhaps are kicking back

Lee: 00:33:20

about some of that stuff as well?

Lee: 00:33:22

Very briefly, we've touched on this concept of having that awareness of

Lee: 00:33:27

yourself and knowing where perhaps you need to work on certain areas

Lee: 00:33:32

that aren't naturally given to you.

Lee: 00:33:35

How do you lean into those traits that aren't natural?

Lee: 00:33:40

So as an extrovert, how do you learn to be quiet or as an introvert,

Lee: 00:33:45

how do you make sure you are heard?

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:47

Yeah, I guess there's some things around I'm sure a lot of people

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:50

have done things like Myers, Briggs, and other sorts of personality tests.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:54

And I'm sure there'll be people rolling their eyes when we talk about them, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:57

actually doing something like that that really does highlight your personality

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:01

traits and where you sit on that spectrum of extrovert, introvert and various other

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:05

things I think is really helpful to help you gain that insight, because it probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:10

will highlight to you things that perhaps bubbling under the surface, but maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:14

haven't, you haven't quite clicked in terms of that awareness of, so I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:19

stuff like that is, is really important to help you with that reflection piece.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:23

And honestly, I have to say, I think it's practice practice, practice, practice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:28

It is about once you are aware of those things that might make you

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:33

a more effective leader because you're having to lean into some of

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:36

those traits that are less natural to you find ways to practice them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:40

And they don't have to be massive, big ways in rooms, full of people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:43

but there'll be opportunities for you to practice throughout your working

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:47

life taking some of that advice on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:49

So for me it would definitely be those two things, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:51

think, I dunno about you Lee?

Lee: 00:34:53

Well, you are right on the practice front, because if you

Lee: 00:34:55

look at someone like I know Steve jobs is a really famous introvert.

Lee: 00:35:02

Think of those amazing talks he used to give at the launch of apple upgrades

Lee: 00:35:08

or new developments and whatnot.

Lee: 00:35:11

Now we've never got the evidence.

Lee: 00:35:13

We've never seen what his first presentations would've looked

Lee: 00:35:16

like, you can bet he wasn't that finished article that we all

Lee: 00:35:19

saw when he became super famous.

Lee: 00:35:21

He probably had to really work at that and hone his craft and get to that point.

Lee: 00:35:26

And often when we think about, oh, you know, I'm not great at

Lee: 00:35:29

presenting or I don't like standing up in front of people or whatever.

Lee: 00:35:32

We go to that end point of it being perfect and being in a room full of

Lee: 00:35:38

hundreds of people and never think of the journey that each of those people

Lee: 00:35:43

have had to go through on their own.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:45

And I've heard you talk before as well about that practice,

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:47

like how you can put little steps in place to practice to get to that end

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:52

point of being in a room of a hundred people listening to your presentation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:56

So I do think practice practicing those skills and behaviors, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:01

is a really important part of it.

Lee: 00:36:03

Mm, from an introverts perspective and certainly something that i've

Lee: 00:36:08

learnt in my career about this whole concept of speaking up in meetings.

Lee: 00:36:14

I knew I wasn't necessarily gonna speak up more.

Lee: 00:36:16

But the likelihood of me speaking up more increased, the more prepared

Lee: 00:36:20

I felt about the discussion.

Lee: 00:36:22

So for me, I put in ways of working that allowed me to have adequate prep

Lee: 00:36:28

time beforehand to read the papers, to think about the questions that

Lee: 00:36:33

were being asked of us in the paper to look at where I think I could

Lee: 00:36:39

have added that value and input.

Lee: 00:36:42

So I would go into a meeting being really prepared.

Lee: 00:36:45

So that would mean I knew where, or how I could contribute.

Lee: 00:36:49

Afterwards, I'd always do a reflection piece.

Lee: 00:36:52

Were there opportunities where I could have said more was I kicking myself

Lee: 00:36:55

that perhaps I didn't say something and someone else got in there with

Lee: 00:36:59

a point that I could have made.

Lee: 00:37:01

I'd ask other people what they thought, what their sense was of

Lee: 00:37:06

what I'd said had landed in the way that I'd intended it to land.

Lee: 00:37:10

And I used to do a lot of work with my allies beforehand, so I would, if

Lee: 00:37:15

there was something I knew I had to get across or a point that I really wanted

Lee: 00:37:18

to make sure I landed I'd do work to talk about it with people beforehand.

Lee: 00:37:22

I'd get them on board.

Lee: 00:37:24

I'd get where they might be in the conversation.

Lee: 00:37:27

Sometimes it might be about influencing them to back me up on a

Lee: 00:37:31

point or even make the point on my behalf, because if I thought they

Lee: 00:37:34

had a better chance, particularly if they were an extrovert, they had

Lee: 00:37:37

a better chance being listened to.

Lee: 00:37:39

So it was that whole thing of nurturing your allies and your

Lee: 00:37:44

network was a really important part.

Lee: 00:37:46

And I could comfortably do that because I love one to one discussions with people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:50

It is really interesting because think some of what you

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:53

are sharing around, how you prep for being an introvert in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:56

situation is genuinely really good preparation just for being a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:01

Because some of that stuff, I definitely do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:04

And not because I'm introverted, but because I think that the prepping

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:08

people and talking about certain topics before you get into the space where

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:12

it's in the meeting to be able to have those people on side with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:16

I think that they're like really good skills to have anyway.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:19

So for me, it's great, cuz I feel like win-win, if you're an introvert and

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:23

you're headed into that leadership space, do what you do because

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:26

that's like a double win for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:28

And I've also had those moments where I've interestingly thought I am going to

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:33

be less vocal in this meeting on purpose, because I know this is a meeting where

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:38

maybe the topic or whatever is something that I'm really passionate about, which

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:42

means I'm gonna get overexcited and want to talk lots about it and I've purposely

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:47

thought, no, I'm gonna sit on my hands and not share as much as maybe I have

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:51

done before, but then sometimes kicked myself when someone shared an idea that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:55

the same as mine and been like, oh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:56

cause I wasn't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:57

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:58

I wasn't saying anything this week, someone else has come

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:00

up, but then you have to go, but its about the greater good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:04

So that's great that someone else had the opportunity to say that

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:07

and it wasn't me and that's fine.

Lee: 00:39:11

And we mentioned in a previous episode, you can't change your

Lee: 00:39:14

personality, so you're never gonna change the fact you're an extrovert.

Lee: 00:39:16

I'm hardly gonna change that I'm an introvert, but it's your behaviors

Lee: 00:39:21

that you can change and work on.

Lee: 00:39:22

And I do think that again, having a coach or even some training that you

Lee: 00:39:28

do, but anything that can help you with that reflection piece and naming,

Lee: 00:39:34

this is an area that I need to work on, and this is how I'm gonna work on it

Lee: 00:39:37

is the only way that you're gonna see positive action in the right direction.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:42

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:42

I can't agree with you more.

Lee: 00:39:44

So we are at the end of the discussion, but we want to

Lee: 00:39:48

briefly wrap up with our, how to like we do in every episode.

Lee: 00:39:52

So how to balance the introvert extrovert in you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:59

I think do that understanding piece take some time

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:02

to understand where you are on your spectrum of being an extrovert or an

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:07

introvert, and probably which bits of that you find most challenging.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:11

So you can identify those places where you might want to put some more work in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:15

And I guess for me, from the point of being an extroverted leader, there is just

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:20

something for all those other extroverted leaders out there about just always

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:23

being conscious about creating that space for everyone that's part of your team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:28

I think that's probably been my biggest learning.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:30

And so I think you have a job as a facilitator to make sure you are,

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:34

and a leader, of course creating that space for people to be able to

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:37

contribute in ways that work for them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:40

Not for you.

Lee: 00:40:41

Yeah, mine would be don't assume even that knowing you are an extrovert

Lee: 00:40:46

or I'm an introvert, don't assume what that means about our characters.

Lee: 00:40:50

You could hate presenting.

Lee: 00:40:51

I could absolutely love it.

Lee: 00:40:52

I don't, but I could absolutely love it, but I might just need different adaptions

Lee: 00:40:57

to help me work around that fact.

Lee: 00:40:59

I think we, we shouldn't come from this point of labeling.

Lee: 00:41:03

You are an introvert.

Lee: 00:41:04

Therefore, this means that, and I need to treat you in a certain way.

Lee: 00:41:07

I think that's really important.

Lee: 00:41:08

My final how to, just buy the book, quiet, and read it.

Lee: 00:41:14

Whether you are an introvert, extrovert, something in between, there's so much

Lee: 00:41:18

in there that gets you thinking about yourself, but also about others.

Lee: 00:41:22

It helped me see other people in different lights, but also

Lee: 00:41:27

gave me a lot to reflect on.

Lee: 00:41:29

Just buy it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:30

Just buy it, it's on my reading list Lee.