Leadership - is it all about power?

Lee: 00:00:00

is this a pipe dream?

Lee: 00:00:01

Are we on, you know, looking for the unicorn in cloud cuckoo land going,

Lee: 00:00:06

oh, this is something we can change, or do we need to recognize that you

Lee: 00:00:11

have to have some kind of gamification, I suppose, if you want to succeed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:18

Oh God no.

Lee: 00:00:51

Hello and welcome to another episode of How to Take the Lead.

Lee: 00:00:55

This is the penultimate episode of the series.

Lee: 00:00:58

Can you believe, I mean, there will be a sneaky bonus, I'm sure, because that's

Lee: 00:01:02

just the way, but yeah, episode nine.

Lee: 00:01:05

Um, Thank you to everyone who's listened and supported the series

Lee: 00:01:09

so far, we really appreciate it.

Lee: 00:01:12

Those that have joined us on YouTube, you can watch us on YouTube.

Lee: 00:01:15

Hello.

Lee: 00:01:15

Hit the subscribe button if you haven't already.

Lee: 00:01:18

Um, those that have been part of the substack community, you

Lee: 00:01:21

can still sign up and join that.

Lee: 00:01:23

We will be carrying on the conversations beyond this series.

Lee: 00:01:27

And so if you want some extra bonus stuff in between our season breaks,

Lee: 00:01:31

then absolutely do get signed up.

Lee: 00:01:33

And I think Book book Club will launch soon, maybe.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:37

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:38

Very exciting.

Lee: 00:01:39

Um, and yeah, we'll still be on the socials.

Lee: 00:01:42

And that I, I feel like I'm saying farewell.

Lee: 00:01:44

We have still got this episode and other episodes

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

What is this vibe?

Lee: 00:01:51

how are you today, Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:53

I'm all right today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:55

I'm all right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:56

There is work and life stuff happening that's made me feel stressed this week,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:01

but at the same time made me reflect on what's important and where I can

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:07

have impact, and it's made me think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:10

I need to start taking some of our, how to take the lead

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:12

advice, uh, about a few things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:14

So it's, yeah, it's been an interesting, slightly exhausting week, but I am

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:18

looking forward to this conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

And um, yeah, it's just made me think a lot of what we've talked about,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

particularly in this series of how to take the lead, it's kind of playing itself

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

out and I feel like I'm ready to deal with it because we've been able to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

our conversations, Lee, so that's good.

Lee: 00:02:34

Yeah, and I, I feel today's conversation's probably a bit

Lee: 00:02:39

apt and, um, because we're, we're talking about power and

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:45

Hmm.

Lee: 00:02:47

the concept of leadership is it all about the power.

Lee: 00:02:51

And so to, I suppose to kick us off.

Lee: 00:02:54

I was doing a bit of research around the concept of power and realized that

Lee: 00:03:00

actually there's far more ways that power shows itself than even I realized.

Lee: 00:03:04

So back in 1959, French and Raven did, did some research and identified

Lee: 00:03:10

five sources of power, and then that's been built on ever since.

Lee: 00:03:15

So if I just do a quick rundown of the different types of power that

Lee: 00:03:18

might be showing up in leadership.

Lee: 00:03:21

Obviously the, the positional power, so your seniority.

Lee: 00:03:25

Reward power, so when you give something to someone to get a result.

Lee: 00:03:30

Expert power, so your knowledge and expertise.

Lee: 00:03:34

Um, referent power, so how you gain and use influence.

Lee: 00:03:40

Coercive power, so the opposite of reward, using that threat to get results.

Lee: 00:03:45

Informational power, which is different to expertise, and you've probably seen

Lee: 00:03:49

that when, um, you've got people who might have a lot of organizational memory, for

Lee: 00:03:54

example, and, and really hold onto that.

Lee: 00:03:57

Connection or networked power, so the, the who, you know, um,

Lee: 00:04:02

as opposed to the what, you know.

Lee: 00:04:03

And I'm sure there are many others as well.

Lee: 00:04:06

So, a that was really interesting in and of itself, that that power does

Lee: 00:04:11

show up in so many more ways than you perhaps think in, in the first glance.

Lee: 00:04:15

And we'll certainly get on some of my perceptions or misperceptions around

Lee: 00:04:19

power as we get into this conversation.

Lee: 00:04:22

Um, and you do see leaders who do undoubtedly great things with their power.

Lee: 00:04:29

But you also see others who let it go to the heads and it creates this

Lee: 00:04:35

negative and destructive culture.

Lee: 00:04:38

You know, they go on a power trip that is literally, you

Lee: 00:04:40

know, the, the phrase, isn't it?

Lee: 00:04:41

Power crazy, power hungry, all of that.

Lee: 00:04:44

So I want to start today's episode to explore a little bit, Carrie-Ann,

Lee: 00:04:49

around your awareness of, as you've been in leadership roles, how aware you've

Lee: 00:04:55

been of the power that you've had.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

Wow.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

Uh, what a big question to start with.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:02

And it's really funny because I've reflected since we started to talk, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

and we did the prep for this episode, thinking like, what, where do we want

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:09

to get to this conversation about power?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:11

And it's really helped me to reflect on a couple of things, I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:15

So I guess as I've become more senior throughout my career, I've had a

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:19

really high awareness of positional power, um, and that kind of hierarchy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:25

And the fact that I'm in a senior position and I've got the job title and I've got

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:30

the accountability and I think probably being aware of, um, You know, how do I,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:36

how do I use that positional power, um, to have an impact and to deliver things?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:42

And how do I want that to play out in my immediate team?

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:46

So I think I've always probably described myself within my immediate,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:50

like, communications teams that I've, I've, um, worked with as somebody

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:55

who's not particularly hierarchical.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:57

I'm there to be accountable and I'm there to have people's backs

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:01

and I'm there to represent us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:03

But actually I don't really like that very linear, like hierarchical

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:07

style of leadership and management.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:09

Um, but I guess I've also been aware that I have stepped into those

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

more senior positions for a reason.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:16

And, um, need to find a way to kind of use that positional

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

power to have influence, I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

But as we talked and I thought about this episode, there was quite a lot of areas

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:26

where I thought there are either things that I'm really good at or things that

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:29

I've not been so good at that haven't really aligned or thought about from

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:33

the point of view of a power dynamic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:35

So there are a couple of areas that you've talked about in those descriptions of

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:40

power where I think, yeah, I feel like actually I have some real strengths there,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:44

but I've never really considered those strengths aligned to the idea of power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:49

So I think in terms of connection, that's something that I'm actually really good

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:54

at and that I spend a lot of time building and developing my own network, but that

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

I also, uh, would like to think that colleagues and others would say about me

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:02

that I'm quite good at connecting other people up and helping them to think about

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:07

their network and how they can have, for me it's always been about like how can

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:11

they have greater influence and impact through building those connections.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:15

Like if I put those two people together to have a conversation, like what's the

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:20

positive that's gonna come out of that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:21

And I guess now we've been talking, I see that that is about power, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:25

Like what's the power, um, in bringing those people together,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:29

hopefully in a positive way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:31

And I guess the other bit is around that kind of influence piece and feedback,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:36

like I feel like some of my natural skills and preferences are about,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:41

um, trying to influence, facilitate, mediate, build relationships, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:48

surface things in discussions in a way that helps people feel like they

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:53

can have those conversations and start to think about that influence.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:56

So there was definitely things for me that I'm like, oh, I hadn't considered

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

that from the point of view of power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:02

But there are areas that you've mentioned that feel like they fit

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:06

with kind of my style of leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:08

But there are also times when I reflected on the fact that there are

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:11

things I haven't stepped into enough.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:13

So you talked about expert power, for example, and I, I feel like I hear this a

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:17

lot about my profession actually through the mentoring that I do and through

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:21

my own kind of professional background and working with communicators that

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:25

often there's this sense that, um, we are not stepping into our expertise

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:30

enough or our expertise is not valued.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:33

And actually, What I hadn't thought about was how that diminishes the sort

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:37

of power balance in relationships by not owning it and stepping into that

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:41

expert space and, you know, being able to say, no, my expert professional opinion

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:46

is this, because I've got years of experience and knowledge and, and skills.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

So it brought up loads for me actually, that I could probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:53

waffle on about for ages.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:54

But I, I found it really interesting to reflect on those different types of

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:59

power, um, and kind of how that's played out for me in my leadership career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:03

So I'm keen to know more from you as well.

Lee: 00:09:07

Yeah.

Lee: 00:09:07

Well, before, before we move on to me, um, I, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:11

It's not all about you, but.

Lee: 00:09:12

I I, definitely won't be as eloquent as you or, or considered as you, but I'm,

Lee: 00:09:16

I'm interested in, I suppose maybe the signs, um, that maybe have highlighted

Lee: 00:09:23

to you the extent of your power.

Lee: 00:09:25

So you've picked up of the things that you've reflected on

Lee: 00:09:28

and the actions that you take.

Lee: 00:09:29

But are there things that on reflection that, that the behaviors

Lee: 00:09:33

or, um, signals from other people that's, that's indicated you have

Lee: 00:09:37

a power that you weren't aware of?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:40

Um, do you know, it is probably been more recent, but actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:44

having some really frank, straightforward feedback about some of those things have

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:48

really highlighted it and having people say, Did you know that you do this,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:53

and I really admire the way that you do that cause I've never felt able to,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:57

and, and it has this impact in a space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:00

So actually I've been lucky enough that a few people have bothered to

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:03

give me that, that feedback, and that has been positive stuff that I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:07

talking about and kind of gone, oh, I've noticed that when you operate in

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:11

board discussions, for example, that you are really skillful at doing this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:15

And did you realize, because the impact it has is it, it brings people back

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:19

to the pertinent point that we need to take some action on, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:24

And I guess that's helped me to reflect on whether I've honed that skill, whether

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:28

it's nature versus nurture or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:31

And it's been helpful to have people reflect that back because it does kind

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:35

of highlight to you, I, I am having a level of influence or I'm exerting a

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:38

level of power, um, to kind of, of get to a decision or take an action perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

I wasn't quite so aware of myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:47

I think there probably have been times in my career where I reflect on the

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:55

positional power piece actually, where maybe my desire to not be so hierarchical

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:01

and not exert those positions of power have almost led to a bit of inertia or

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:07

a bit of like non-action because, um, I think my style has been about empowering

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:14

people and giving people autonomy and, um, wanting people to aspire to certain things

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:23

or operate in a certain way, but almost come to that conclusion for themselves.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:27

And actually what I've had to learn through my career is that there are just

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:30

some people I would say that actually respond better to being told what to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:38

do than being given that free reign.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:40

And because that hasn't been my natural style of leadership to exert that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:45

positional power and be like, no, I'm, I'm the boss, I'm gonna never

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:48

say it like this, but I'm the boss and this is what needs to happen,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:51

and I need you to do X, Y, and Z.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:53

Because often I haven't always felt comfortable in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:56

space and operating that way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:59

I'd probably done a bit of a disservice to those people who need that level

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:02

of kind of direction and that level of being told, these are exactly

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:07

the things I need you to deliver.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:09

And some people do operate better in that space, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:12

And I think Covid was a really good example of that when everyone was working

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:16

towards a common goal and there was a command and control structure as much

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:20

as that was a challenge for some of us in my sector to operate in that way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:24

Other people really shone 'cos it was just really clear like, these

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:28

are the actions I need to take, this is the end result I need to get to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:31

You know, that really directive way of working, which I think sometimes has

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:35

challenged my natural style of leadership and I probably have, yeah, not not been

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:40

as aware until it's too late that I maybe haven't helped people to deliver

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:45

what they could deliver through not being so directive, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:49

I feel like I've waffled a bit there.

Lee: 00:12:51

No, no, it's, it's, it's an interesting one.

Lee: 00:12:54

And hi hierarchical positional powers, I think been the one a I've probably been

Lee: 00:13:00

most aware of, but, but also I've been the most uncomfortable with, and it's a, it's

Lee: 00:13:05

been a really interesting reflection point for me because I've always been Ambitious.

Lee: 00:13:11

I've always wanted to be at the top of my game and achieve the ultimate kind

Lee: 00:13:17

of position that I can within my area, within my, um, kind of profession.

Lee: 00:13:22

And did that.

Lee: 00:13:24

So there was obviously something within me that wanted positional power,

Lee: 00:13:28

although I didn't couch it like that.

Lee: 00:13:30

I wanted to be the ultimate expert.

Lee: 00:13:32

Um, But I hated using my title.

Lee: 00:13:36

Um, I didn't really like reflecting other people's, um, authority either.

Lee: 00:13:41

I've very, I, I would purposely not use people's titles if they said, oh, I'm,

Lee: 00:13:48

you know, doctor this Mr that whatever, working in, in a health setting.

Lee: 00:13:53

I refused to, I would just call them Bob, Dave, Jill, whatever.

Lee: 00:13:57

Well, obviously if that was their name, I didn't just

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

I just randomly calling people, Bob.

Lee: 00:14:03

but I had this thing around you're no better than me.

Lee: 00:14:06

You've done a different education, you've got a different role, but

Lee: 00:14:09

I'm not going to put you up on a pedestal by using this name.

Lee: 00:14:14

And I hated that power play that that would go on in clinical situations.

Lee: 00:14:19

But my reflection now is maybe I was actively trying to undermine their

Lee: 00:14:23

power and, um, maybe that was being disrespectful in and of itself.

Lee: 00:14:28

So that's, that's been an interesting one.

Lee: 00:14:30

And then my other thing around, I was undermining my, undermining

Lee: 00:14:33

myself because I used to do the, well, there's no point me saying what

Lee: 00:14:37

my job title is cuz no one's gonna really understand what that job does.

Lee: 00:14:42

And I, and to some extent I still agree with that, and I say that when

Lee: 00:14:45

I work with a lot of leaders who focus so much on their job title or say,

Lee: 00:14:49

well, what does it mean to anyone?

Lee: 00:14:51

What does that, you know, we all have these grand titles that it

Lee: 00:14:55

doesn't actually say what, what you do and doesn't mean anything.

Lee: 00:14:59

If you, if you're having to go into a whole explanation around what your

Lee: 00:15:02

job is to your nan or to someone down the pub, you might as well

Lee: 00:15:06

just lead with that to begin with.

Lee: 00:15:08

Like, let's get rid of the title.

Lee: 00:15:10

But yeah, so, so that's been an interesting reflection around

Lee: 00:15:13

the undermining part of it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

And it is funny, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:17

Cause it's I guess there's that level of comfort isn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:19

Cause as you were saying, I was like, oh yeah, I can definitely remember times,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:22

even like recently where I cringe at having to say that I'm a director and

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:26

then there's a bit of me, then there's a bit of me that's cross at myself,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:29

cause I'm like, but I've worked really hard to get to this point in my career,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:33

so why am I why am I cringing about it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:35

And actually I'm wanting to role model to other communicators that they

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

can step into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:41

So if I'm not comfortable to own it for myself, like what does that say?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:45

But it, uh, yeah, I think it comes with a lot of complexities, doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:48

About the cultures we've worked within, the teams we've worked with in our

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:52

own experiences about how comfortable we are then stepping into that space

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:57

and that conversation about power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:58

And I just, I don't know if it's the word power that makes it feel cringey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

Cuz when I thought influence and expertise and connection I felt

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:07

really comfortable with those concepts that are still about power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:12

But then when it was power, I was, oh no, it feels a bit icky.

Lee: 00:16:16

Yeah.

Lee: 00:16:17

So do you think you can successfully lead if you don't have power?

Lee: 00:16:22

Obviously if you're in a senior management position, you have positional

Lee: 00:16:26

power, which we've, we've already referenced, but can you perhaps be a

Lee: 00:16:30

positive and transformational leader with just your position, or do you

Lee: 00:16:36

need a blend of those other powers to be in play in order to truly succeed?

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:42

I thought about this and I, and I absolutely am of the opinion

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:46

that you need that blend, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:49

Because, we can probably all either name people we've seen in like high profile

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:55

public positions or we can, uh, think about our own experiences of leaders that

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:01

we've worked with where just because they have a senior position, just because they

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:05

are a senior leader in an organization, it hasn't meant that they have actually had

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:11

any sort of positive impact as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:14

Um, so I don't think that just through having the title and having that

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:18

hierarchy and that positional power, you c you can be an effective and

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:23

impactful leader because I think so much of what we've talked about through

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:27

how to take the lead and in other conversations has been about your ability

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:31

to influence, your ability to connect with people and build trust, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:37

So I bet we've all got examples of people who have the positional power, and you

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:44

talked about being power crazy and going on a power trip, and who've maybe used

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:49

that power to bully or be, you mentioned coercion didn't you, like coerce people

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:55

into things because they're the boss?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:57

So you must do this because I've told you to because I'm the boss.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:01

And actually when that goes unquestioned, I, I, I think that person might think

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:07

that they are exerting their power and that they're having an impact, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:11

fundamentally, I think what it does is break trust and alienate people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:17

and people get into a mindset where they're either like, I'm just gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:20

do it, but I'm not, I don't actually really care that much about it, but I

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:23

just need to get the boss off my back, or I need to do, you know what I mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:27

So I, I feel just using positional power can create really negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:32

impacts and scenarios and a, and a really challenging culture.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:37

So I think to be impactful and have that positive impact, you need to have a blend

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:42

of all of those other things, and I think you can have a blend of all of those

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:46

other things and be perceived as, and have impact as a leader without always having

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:52

the position of power in the hierarchy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:55

So, yeah, sorry, I'm kind of going all over the place with my

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:59

ramblings, but my answer was I think you need the blend of everything

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:02

and it isn't just about positional power to, to be able to lead well.

Lee: 00:19:07

almost, if you were to remove any kind of power, the positional one could

Lee: 00:19:10

be the one most easily re removed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:15

Yeah.

Lee: 00:19:15

Yeah.

Lee: 00:19:16

And I suppose the skill of a leader is recognizing the powers that they have more

Lee: 00:19:22

broadly than just that hi hierarchical one, and then how they use them.

Lee: 00:19:28

So if you look at the, some of those powers I talked about in the

Lee: 00:19:31

very beginning, the most effective ones probably are, as you've said,

Lee: 00:19:34

like influence your knowledge, your expertise, how networked you are.

Lee: 00:19:40

Whereas the least effective one from a leadership perspective are things

Lee: 00:19:44

coercive power because that's that fear.

Lee: 00:19:48

Fear leading by fear.

Lee: 00:19:50

Um, leading through punishment probably isn't gonna get results.

Lee: 00:19:54

It might get a short term fix.

Lee: 00:19:56

And we see that with some, with some leaders where they come in, they

Lee: 00:19:59

might do a turnaround, and they, they put the fear of God in everyone.

Lee: 00:20:02

Um, and something might happen, but that's not a sustainable way to lead.

Lee: 00:20:07

And then you see all the other metrics start to fall as the culture erodes,

Lee: 00:20:12

as trust erodes and all of that.

Lee: 00:20:14

And then you see morale falls, performance falls, and we've talked about that in the,

Lee: 00:20:18

the communications episode and previously.

Lee: 00:20:22

So the, the metrics that can fly if you use the wrong kind of

Lee: 00:20:26

power in the wrong, wrong setting.

Lee: 00:20:28

So I suppose there's a leader you need to have, and we talk about this word

Lee: 00:20:31

a lot, that clarity in what you are trying to achieve, who your stakeholders

Lee: 00:20:37

are, what your core values are, and tho and your beliefs around that as well.

Lee: 00:20:42

And then use the values, um, the powers rather, that feel

Lee: 00:20:47

most aligned to achieve that.

Lee: 00:20:50

That's kind of, would be my sense.

Lee: 00:21:30

What if you feel powerless.

Lee: 00:21:34

You know, there are situations where you feel something's out

Lee: 00:21:36

of your control and it maybe it's undermining your ability to lead.

Lee: 00:21:42

How, how do you tackle that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:45

Oh, I think that's a really challenging one, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:47

Because, uh, so much of it is dependent on, I guess, uh, the culture

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:53

in your organization where you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:57

I dunno, there's, there's something for me that, oh God, there's so much in this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:01

There's something for me that is partly about, um, is it

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:04

just you that feels powerless?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

So actually dependent on what that situation is that's making you feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:10

like you don't have any power, can you recognize that that is individual

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:14

to you and therefore something that you might need to identify?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:19

Like, how can you regain that power?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:21

Is that possible?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:22

Does it need to be possible?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:24

Is there a different way that you can reframe what that situation is

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:27

to your benefit, um, and to help you achieve your specific purpose?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:31

Um, and we've talked lots in other episodes, haven't me, about like alignment

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

and actually is it a sign that things are not aligned and maybe this is not

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:39

the right environment for you to thrive as a leader or, or have that positive

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:43

impact that you want to, but also if trying to evaluate whether or not

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:49

actually there's more of you that feel powerless and what's that all about?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:55

And actually, if collectively there was an opportunity for you to come

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:58

together and maybe use your collective voice to perhaps challenge something

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:03

that's happening in your organization or a leader who is leading by fear or

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:07

coerciveness or, or whatever it might be, that is there a strength in numbers?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:13

And actually is there an opportunity in that space for you to think about how

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

that style or approach of one leader is impacting on a group of you and move

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:26

it away maybe a bit from that emotional element of how that's making people

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:30

feel, but to focus it on the performance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:32

So it is almost like if organizationally we're striving to achieve x.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

The way in which this leader is impacting on a group of us means that we're,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:41

that we're never gonna achieve that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:43

So how can we have a conversation about what might need to change

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:47

from a leadership point of view to enable us to deliver what

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:49

the organization needs from us?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:51

But I mean, all of that sounds like I'm being really flippant

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:55

cuz none of that is easy to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:57

But I think it's about having awareness and that ability to be able to identify

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:03

what those issues are and where there may be opportunities to take action, either

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

individually or, or as a collective, to try and address some of those problems.

Lee: 00:24:13

Yeah, I think that's, that's really helpful and it, it almost builds on

Lee: 00:24:16

some of the points that we talked about in the difficult conversations episode

Lee: 00:24:21

around how you perhaps take some of that emotion you might be feeling out of

Lee: 00:24:25

the situation to be able to tackle it.

Lee: 00:24:27

And also sometimes it is about bringing awareness to an individual when they

Lee: 00:24:31

might not be aware that they're making you feel powerless and, and just identifying

Lee: 00:24:36

through evidence-based, not that emotion, um, of, of how you feel disempowered

Lee: 00:24:43

to, to be able to do your role could actually be a really positive step.

Lee: 00:24:47

Obviously, if it is something that is more toxic and more challenging than that, then

Lee: 00:24:53

then it might be no use in you trying to tackle it with that individual head on.

Lee: 00:24:58

So then there are, well, what are your other recourse, um, of actions?

Lee: 00:25:03

Is it something you, as you said collectively you do as a group?

Lee: 00:25:06

Is it, often in organizations there are individuals you can go and raise concerns

Lee: 00:25:12

with, if you think that there is an actual harm being done by this person that's,

Lee: 00:25:17

that's taking power away from others.

Lee: 00:25:19

Um, there are external ways and means that you can bring

Lee: 00:25:23

light to a situation as well.

Lee: 00:25:25

But, um, I think that's where your support network comes in really, what's

Lee: 00:25:30

the word I'm looking for, really?

Lee: 00:25:32

Helpfully.

Lee: 00:25:33

Handily,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:35

It's really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:36

That's where your support network's really important.

Lee: 00:25:38

That's the word.

Lee: 00:25:41

So in my exploration of power and leadership, and as I've already alluded

Lee: 00:25:49

to, I I definitely have come to it, I suppose, in quite a negative space.

Lee: 00:25:55

Um, and we will cover this because it is important, but I'll,

Lee: 00:26:00

I'll get to that in a minute.

Lee: 00:26:02

Um, we've talked about it being a dirty word and feeling a bit bit icky

Lee: 00:26:07

and we've conversely recognize that power exists in all sorts of ways.

Lee: 00:26:14

Um, obviously it's influenced by the privilege that you have,

Lee: 00:26:19

by the voice that you have.

Lee: 00:26:21

Um, so even those people who say they don't care for or want power, or those

Lee: 00:26:29

who perhaps advocate on behalf of others who have less power, there's

Lee: 00:26:34

a reality isn't there, about there is still power in play in, in ev in all of

Lee: 00:26:39

those situations regardless of how you are trying to position your own power.

Lee: 00:26:43

So if you are someone that is uncomfortable with the concept of power

Lee: 00:26:47

and the power that you have, how do you start to get comfortable, um, with

Lee: 00:26:54

the power that you have as leader And I suppose harness that to use it for good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:59

I think for me it's about purpose and impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

So if you are uncomfortable with the I, I think we need to get to

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:06

a space where, um, We, we have to accept that power is a, is a thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:11

It's a concept, it's an actual thing that is, is happening all around us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:15

So we either have power or we don't in different circumstances.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:19

And I guess it's about acknowledging and accepting that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:22

But if you are uncomfortable as a leader with the notion of power or

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:26

the term power because it feels like that dirty word that's like got that

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

negative kind of connotation about it, I think it's about reframing that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:36

So actually what you are considering is what is your purpose as a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:41

And we talked, you mentioned clarity, getting that clarity on that, and what

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:45

impact is it that you want to have and that you feel you can have because of

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:50

the position that you find yourself in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:53

So for me, I guess I feel quite uncomfortable with the terminology

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

around power because that doesn't feel like it fits with my values

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:02

and the language that I like to use.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:04

So I guess for me, I think about as a leader, what's the influence and impact

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:09

that I can have and where, where am I in a privileged position where I can actually,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:16

I already have a seat at the table as part of those conversations, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:20

Or I am in a position where my role enables me to be somewhere that means I

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:25

can challenge bad behaviors or people's assumptions about, um, the way certain

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:31

things might land in an organization or the impact it might have on other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:36

Um, and where do I need to identify and recognize where I could

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:41

advocate for other people if that's what they would like me to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:44

So I think there is something about getting that balance, cuz sometimes I

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:48

think you can assume you should be the voice for the people who don't have as

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:51

much power or influence or impact as you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:54

And actually, that's not always the right thing to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:57

But actually then it's about, okay, how do I create the space

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

for those people to have their own voice and influence and impact?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:04

So I, I think it's about recognizing that that power is there, that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:11

might feel uncomfortable with it because we've always probably looked at power

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:15

from that point of view of it being more challenging and more negative.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:19

Cause we talked about being power, mad power, crazy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:22

But I, we wouldn't say things with those negative con connotations about wanting

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:27

to be impactful as a leader, would we, we'd see that as a positive thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:30

So I think for me it's almost about that reframe.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:34

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:34

Reframing that notion of power in your head about what does that mean for you as

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:38

a leader in delivering your purpose and engaging with other people to help deliver

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:43

that bigger purpose for your organization?

Lee: 00:29:46

Yeah, and you, and you're completely right reframe is the,

Lee: 00:29:49

is the word that came to my mind because power doesn't mean control.

Lee: 00:29:54

And often that's what we, we

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:56

Hmm.

Lee: 00:29:56

kind of join them two together.

Lee: 00:29:58

Um, but it.

Lee: 00:29:59

Does mean impact.

Lee: 00:30:00

So yeah, that, that reframes important.

Lee: 00:30:03

And we talked in episode five around using your voice for good.

Lee: 00:30:07

That is you using your power, albeit not in a, oh, look at me kind of way.

Lee: 00:30:13

Here's my shoulder pads, let's go on with it.

Lee: 00:30:17

So, I dunno why I had to do, do,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:21

it.

Lee: 00:30:23

do the action whilst I was talking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:25

That's for the YouTube viewers.

Lee: 00:30:29

and there's something we've talked about this often around if you overuse

Lee: 00:30:35

your strengths, it becomes a weakness.

Lee: 00:30:36

And it's the same thing around bringing awareness to your power.

Lee: 00:30:39

If you overuse your power, it can become, um, a force not for good.

Lee: 00:30:47

I'm not sure that's the sentence I want to say, but I can't think of a better one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:50

know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:51

We know what you meant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:52

We know what you meant.

Lee: 00:30:53

So it's all about your self-awareness, isn't it?

Lee: 00:30:55

And, and reframing in a way that, that feels comfortable, but I don't want

Lee: 00:30:59

people to feel too comfortable because there's got to be a bit of grit and

Lee: 00:31:02

challenge there as well for you to truly step into the space and, and own it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:07

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:07

Oh yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:07

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:08

Grit and challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:09

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:10

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:11

I like.

Lee: 00:31:13

So I've referenced a couple of times now, my negative view of the

Lee: 00:31:19

word power, um, and I would say that's been true until even quite recently.

Lee: 00:31:25

And I suppose that's because I see time and time again the

Lee: 00:31:28

destruction that power can cause.

Lee: 00:31:32

So I do want to briefly tackle, um, Those who do abuse the power

Lee: 00:31:38

that they have, and I've seen it in organizations I've worked for.

Lee: 00:31:43

I've seen it in wider sectors that I've been in.

Lee: 00:31:46

We obviously see it in the news, in the media and played out in,

Lee: 00:31:48

in social media for example.

Lee: 00:31:50

You know, leaders who use their position of power to silence other people.

Lee: 00:31:55

Leaders who bully and intimidate people beneath them to achieve an outcome.

Lee: 00:32:00

Uh, leaders who favor and reward those who do and say the right things.

Lee: 00:32:06

Um, and I know as you do that, it happens a lot more than it is ever

Lee: 00:32:12

called out for, and I can only assume it's not called out as much as it

Lee: 00:32:16

should be because of the power dynamics.

Lee: 00:32:18

And we've spoken before about that knock on effect that, that it has on people.

Lee: 00:32:25

And there's the negative influence, isn't there?

Lee: 00:32:27

People feeling like they've got to behave in the same way to succeed.

Lee: 00:32:31

I've seen people moan about, you know, this person or that person and then

Lee: 00:32:36

they've gone and blown to smoke up their ass when they're around them

Lee: 00:32:39

to get promotion or to get what they want from their portfolio or, you

Lee: 00:32:44

know, to get favored in some way.

Lee: 00:32:46

And the cycle continues forever.

Lee: 00:32:49

Um, and I suppose that, we talk about grit and challenge.

Lee: 00:32:54

That's, that's there in me that fire is there because we talk about this being

Lee: 00:32:58

the year of change, certainly from our perspective, we've, we've labeled it that.

Lee: 00:33:04

But is it, you know, is this a pipe dream?

Lee: 00:33:06

Are we on, you know, looking for the unicorn in cloud cuckoo land going,

Lee: 00:33:12

oh, this is something we can change, or do we need to recognize that you

Lee: 00:33:17

have to have some kind of gamification, I suppose, if you want to succeed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:23

Oh God no.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:26

Like so, oh, there's so much of me that wants to be really hopeful and say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:31

yes, it's all out there for the taking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:32

We can change this, we can absolutely, you know, really challenge those negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:39

power dynamics that come into play.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:41

Um, so I, I want to say yes, and I want to be part of that change

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:46

a hundred percent for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:48

But I think it's so nuanced, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:50

Because.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:51

For some individuals, it will depend what success looks like for them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:55

So if success for an individual looks like getting to the highest possible

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:01

positional power that they can with the best paycheck and you know, whatever,

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:05

whatever it is that's driving that person, then actually there probably is an element

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:09

of gamification in it because you are probably gonna find yourselves if you

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:13

are that person doing exactly what you said, which is, even if some of it feels

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:17

uncomfortable for you and you don't like the way the power dynamics are playing

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:21

out, you still play into them because individually for you, it's gonna get you

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:26

to where you want to be in your career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:29

For other people, there might be more at play there because it might be more

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:33

about their professional and personal integrity, their morals, their values,

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:38

which means they're not gonna get into that kind of, I'm just gonna play the

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:42

game to get the big job, because actually that's not what is their individual driver

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:47

and not what feels important to them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:49

And I think so much of this challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:52

Is about individuals rather than about a co a collective, if I'm honest.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:56

Cuz it's about people either feeling like I wanna speak out because I don't feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:02

like what's going on here is, is right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:04

Or it's about people going, I won't speak out cuz I just wanna pay the mortgage.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:09

So I'll be, I'll be complicit through not doing anything.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:12

Or it'll be the opposite, which is I'm gonna play into all of those negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:15

stereotypes and play this power game and be part of that power, crazy power trip.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:22

I want my next promotion.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:23

So it's, it's really challenging to kind of work out how we

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:27

make that culture shift.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:28

And I think the thing that I have found more and more upsetting, I guess as I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:35

moved through, um, my career and, and been in that leadership space is actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:41

when I see people challenge and call out the poor use of power, more often than

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:49

not, and I mean very much more often than not, what happens is, The person who's

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:55

prepared to make that challenge and say, this doesn't feel right, this doesn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:59

sit comfortably with me, we are not doing the right thing here often ends up being

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:04

the person that leaves that organization either because they are pushed out,

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:10

because their face doesn't fit and they haven't said the right, the right thing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:14

I use the, they haven't said the right thing or because they realize that the,

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:19

the culture in that organization and the toxicity that's playing through, just

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:24

isn't healthy or right for them, and that they're never gonna feel like they can

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:28

influence and have impact in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:31

And I feel like that's where I feel slightly worried and depressed about

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:35

how we create this movement of change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:38

Because the people who are in organizations sometimes who really

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:43

wanna make that change happen for various different reasons, don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:46

stay there to help make it happen.

Lee: 00:36:49

Yeah, the, you've see, you've see this, there are really good

Lee: 00:36:51

people stepping away from, um, positions of power and influence

Lee: 00:36:57

because it's not, it's not worth it.

Lee: 00:36:59

And it's almost like, are there more of the wrong ones, as it were, that are,

Lee: 00:37:05

are a rising to the top, you know, is.

Lee: 00:37:07

Proportionately have we got it so out of sync that it's, you know,

Lee: 00:37:11

we talk about that Malcolm Gladwell book with, um, the tipping point.

Lee: 00:37:15

Is the tipping point such that there are so few of those that are willing

Lee: 00:37:19

to do the fight and to, to use their power to, to make this change happen.

Lee: 00:37:24

Um, are they just getting shouted out or overshadowed or, or undermined and

Lee: 00:37:28

all of those things, or just personally don't have the energy to kind of continue

Lee: 00:37:32

fighting, which is not a bad thing.

Lee: 00:37:36

Yeah, it's, it's a hard, it's, it is a hard one to know if it will change, and

Lee: 00:37:43

I, that feels a bit depressing to me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:45

I know, I feel sad.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:46

I feel like I might cry a little bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:48

And then there's a bit of me that goes, how do we harness all of those

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:51

amazing leaders who've been in that position where they're like, no, my

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:55

integrity's telling me this is wrong.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:57

I've spoken out and now I can't stay either because my position's

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:01

too untenable, I'm being pushed out, or quite frankly, I can't

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:04

cope with this toxic nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:05

How do we get all of those people in one space and start creating

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:08

some new organizations and some new leadership approaches that

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:12

harnesses all of that good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:14

Because I do think it's there and I, and I think probably some, even my

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:19

own self, and I think I've mentioned this in examples before, um, on the

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:22

podcast, I've even found myself in some situations earlier on in my leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:27

journey, rather than speaking out, just not saying anything because that

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:32

feels easier and that makes it, not that it puts me in a more comfortable

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:37

position, but it's just like head down.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:39

I don't wanna get involved in the politics of these power

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:41

dynamics that are playing out.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:43

But on reflection, I look back at that and think, well, that makes me complicit

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:46

because I haven't challenged it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:48

And I imagine there's probably quite a, a swell of people who are in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:53

position where they're not blowing smoke up people's asses and just trying

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:56

to get the next promotion by going along with the bad behaviors and bad

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:00

power dynamic, but they're equally not challenging it, they're just sitting

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:04

somewhere quietly in the middle.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:05

And I just wonder how many people are finding themselves in, in that space

Lee: 00:39:09

It's, it's, It's, the other thing that I'm, that I'm struggling with

Lee: 00:39:15

is this sense of, there is almost this, there's more um, discussion

Lee: 00:39:21

and debate and awareness around good leadership qualities and what you

Lee: 00:39:26

need and, and values led leadership and all the stuff that we talk about.

Lee: 00:39:30

We're not necessarily the first to raise some of these things as, as being good

Lee: 00:39:33

for leadership, so they've, they can almost become buzzwords that people use.

Lee: 00:39:38

And in the last fortnight, there's been another list of top chief executives

Lee: 00:39:43

that have been published for a sector.

Lee: 00:39:46

And you know, some of the criteria when I was looking at it was,

Lee: 00:39:49

oh, they're demonstrating values led leadership, blah, blah, blah.

Lee: 00:39:52

Now I've looked down that list, and I'm not saying this categorically

Lee: 00:39:55

for everyone on their list.

Lee: 00:39:56

I'm sure there's some really great leaders that have been, um, nominated,

Lee: 00:40:02

but there are leaders there who, to the external world have been chosen because

Lee: 00:40:08

they are seen to be good, great leaders.

Lee: 00:40:12

Yet I know internally that they're not, that there's stuff going on,

Lee: 00:40:16

that they're playing all the power play dynamics, blah, blah, blah.

Lee: 00:40:19

I know people who, um, were part of the decision making panels to, to

Lee: 00:40:25

decide The ratings also don't live by the values of which they were judging.

Lee: 00:40:30

Um, and so it's just perpetuating this, this kind of, everyone's playing the game.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:36

Oh my God, I feel so depressed.

Lee: 00:40:38

Sorry, this, this is not, I feel like we've gotta kind of get to it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:44

But it's that calling it out, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:45

How do you call that out?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:47

How do you ch how do you change the rules of the game?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:49

That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:51

How do you change the rule of rules of the game so it doesn't become about

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:54

rewarding the bad behaviors and playing into all of those negative power dynamics.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:00

But it comes a, it becomes about more of the positives that we've talked

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:03

around about stepping into some of those other types of power for the

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:07

greater good and to have a positive impact and influence for other people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:12

It's hard.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:12

It's really hard.

Lee: 00:41:13

But that goes back to som of the conversations.

Lee: 00:41:15

It is, it goes back to some of the earlier conversations that we had, um, probably at

Lee: 00:41:19

the very beginning of starting the podcast when we were talking about what, what

Lee: 00:41:23

do organizations need to do differently?

Lee: 00:41:25

Looking at their recruitment processes, how are they really test testing the um,

Lee: 00:41:31

The values and the behaviors and, and looking at skills more than just their

Lee: 00:41:36

expertise and, and their knowledge, but actually the broader skills

Lee: 00:41:40

that a, a good leader needs to have.

Lee: 00:41:43

It's about how organizations are supporting leaders and the right kind

Lee: 00:41:46

of leaders and not doing the usual tick box exercises when it comes to things

Lee: 00:41:53

like diversity and inclusion and training programs and, and, and, uh, all of

Lee: 00:42:01

those types of things that, that needs to happen, but it just feels so slow.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:08

It does feel slow, doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:09

But then I guess we are talking about a cultural shift in leadership, aren't we?

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:14

So not even in one organization, but in leadership as a as this great collective

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:20

up here and we know it takes time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:23

So I dunno, what was the research say if it's the latest research, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:26

it takes like seven years to change the culture in one organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:29

So actually we have to start somewhere.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:32

We have to hold onto the positives that are happening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:34

We have to try and find ways to harness and nurture and support those leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:40

who demonstrate the values that we think are really important and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:45

just, I guess keep trying to plug away at that because if we give up, then

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:49

we're complicit again in this, this horrible dynamic of poor leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:54

that's all about the wrong sort of power.

Lee: 00:42:57

So to, to, I feel, I feel like we've not resolved this one and we are going to

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:03

gonna come back to this, aren't we?

Lee: 00:43:05

revisit and we would absolutely love people who are listening to this

Lee: 00:43:09

to share their views and thoughts and, and ideas for what can be the difference

Lee: 00:43:14

this, this time round, I suppose.

Lee: 00:43:16

But to wrap up in our how to, how, how do you really start to leverage your power?

Lee: 00:43:23

What should leaders and I suppose organizations be learning through

Lee: 00:43:28

maybe the discussion that we've had to support the right kind

Lee: 00:43:32

of powers to be put into play?

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:35

So I feel like firstly for me, it's about doing that reframe.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:40

So if you are not comfortable with the concept of power, uh, finding a way

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:45

to get comfortable with it, because whether you like it or not, as we've

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:48

said there, you are gonna have various different levels and elements of power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:53

Whatever they might look like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:54

So if you need to reframe that and think about it in a different way,

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:58

so whether that's about impact, influence, whatever, um, maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:02

start to do some of that thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:04

And then I think for leaders it's about understanding where you actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:08

do have the most power right now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:10

Um, how that's playing out, how you are evidencing that, like what impact

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:16

that's having on others, um, and starting to understand that impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:20

So actually if you harness all of that for good, um, what would that look like?

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:24

But also identify and maybe, where you don't have as much power as perhaps you

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:29

might need to deliver on your purpose and to have that positive impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:35

Um, because if you can identify some of that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:37

So maybe I've said sometimes I've not stepped into my, uh, expert power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:43

I've not, I've not done that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:44

So actually if I've identified that, what action can I take to do more of that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:48

To help me to achieve my purpose and goals?

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:51

So I think it's about that identification and understanding of where you

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:56

are at in some of those power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:58

Power, what are we calling them?

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:59

Like categories, I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:45:01

And kind of where you can do more of the good stuff that's having a positive

Carrie-Ann: 00:45:05

impact and where you can see that there are gaps that you might need to build on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:45:10

Probably feels like some good first steps for me.

Lee: 00:45:13

Yeah.

Lee: 00:45:14

I love, I love that.

Lee: 00:45:15

And for, for me, in terms of the learning that leaders I suppose can

Lee: 00:45:22

take from, from this conversation.

Lee: 00:45:25

Um, it isn't so much about deciding what power you fit into, but maybe

Lee: 00:45:31

it's about focusing more on the types of relationships that you're

Lee: 00:45:35

building, being aware of your kind of personal agenda so that you are not

Lee: 00:45:39

abusing the power that you've got.

Lee: 00:45:42

Things like working on those broader skills like your communications and

Lee: 00:45:46

your connection, which again is, these are all power-based things, but it's

Lee: 00:45:50

about that reframe of how you use it.

Lee: 00:45:52

And then looking at you how you use your power, whatever that

Lee: 00:45:57

might be, for good in some way.

Lee: 00:45:59

And we've talked about it in other episodes, but there's that concept

Lee: 00:46:02

of how, how are you lifting as you, you rise as a leader, which I love.

Lee: 00:46:07

Um, and I think that's something that we can all do regardless of

Lee: 00:46:10

where we are in, in an organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:14

That feels like a more positive way to end the

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:16

episode Lee Lifting as we rise.

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:18

I don't think there's anybody really who wouldn't wanna get behind that is there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:22

Maybe there is, maybe some of those power hungry leaders won't, but I feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:27

like that's what we are all about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:28

So that's a, that's a more positive end.

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:30

But as you say, I don't think we've reached a resolution or a solution,

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:34

and I'm sure it will be a topic we come back to in many different

Carrie-Ann: 00:46:37

shapes and forms as we continue on how to take the lead discussions.

Lee: 00:46:42

Yeah.

Lee: 00:46:42

So that's it.

Lee: 00:46:43

That's the end of the episode.

Lee: 00:46:45

Um, if you like this, please leave a rating or, or a review.

Lee: 00:46:49

I still can't say it.

Lee: 00:46:50

It's been three series.

Lee: 00:46:52

Get involved in the conversations over on substack.

Lee: 00:46:55

Like, follow, share, all of that stuff would be brilliant.

Lee: 00:46:59

And, um, yeah, come and dm us with your stories of power being

Lee: 00:47:04

used for, for good and bad.

Lee: 00:47:06

We would love to know, don't feel like you've got to share it to the world

Lee: 00:47:09

if you're not comfortable yet, but, um, if we can help be a mouthpiece

Lee: 00:47:13

for you, we will happily do so.