Staying curious

Lee: 00:00:00

I dunno why I'm talking in a voice like

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

Are you channeling a specific leader that you've worked with because

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

I'm loving that you actually had a voice.

Lee: 00:00:09

Obviously was, yes.

Lee: 00:00:11

I'm like, uh, Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost, when the, when the spirit has entered me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:17

The spirit of poor leadership has entered you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:51

Hello and welcome to the last episode of series three of how to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:59

Is it series three or Series two?

Lee: 00:01:01

It is series three.

Lee: 00:01:02

I was like, I, I, I I looked at you like that because you said the last episode.

Lee: 00:01:06

I was like, oh, we're not finishing really.

Lee: 00:01:08

But then I realized you meant of, of the series,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

And then I was like, is it series three or series two?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:12

I've confused myself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:14

Um,

Lee: 00:01:14

We've recorded this very early people,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

yes, uh,

Lee: 00:01:17

not had enough caffeine.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:18

Early morning recording for us, which is unusual.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:21

So we're a bit bleary-eyed and trying to work out what's going on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:24

Um, so welcome to, uh, this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

I'll do all the usual just in case you are a new listener.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:31

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:35

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:36

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:40

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:44

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:50

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Carrie-Ann: 00:01:52

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:04

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:06

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:10

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:12

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:15

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Carrie-Ann: 00:02:17

Hopefully that's everything.

Lee: 00:02:18

You've nailed it, episode 10, you've nailed it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

only taken, it's only taken 10 episodes of this series to nail it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

And I think I only said uh, once as well, but we'll listen

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:27

back and I probably didn't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:29

Um, so how are you, Lee, before we get into the episode?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:33

It says that she's got a mouth full of tea.

Lee: 00:02:36

I'm alright.

Lee: 00:02:37

I am, I'm, as I say, first cuppa, the first person I've spoken to today.

Lee: 00:02:43

Um, yeah, I was never a fan when it, when I was in corporate life

Lee: 00:02:47

of doing early morning meetings.

Lee: 00:02:49

So you're, you're gonna see that side of me probably in this episode.

Lee: 00:02:53

I apologize.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:54

Are we just discovering uh, that we are both not morning

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:57

people because I'm not a morning person either, but I'm not

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:00

sure I knew that about you Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:01

I thought you were like up and at them, spritely at like six.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

Whilst I was still groaning and going, do I have to get out bed?

Lee: 00:03:08

Well, I get up early, but that is not with any willingness.

Lee: 00:03:12

It just happens.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:14

It's, it's not with full of vim and vigor, but anyway, uh, right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:18

So, um, having just learned something new about you, Lee, that feels

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

like, uh, an apt start to an episode that is about staying curious.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:27

So, today we are going to talk about curiosity and leadership and, uh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

whether or not you are curious, how you get curious as a leader and how

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:36

you might decide to stay curious.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:38

So, um, um curiosity and leadership is something that I've started consider

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

more, I guess, over the last few years of my own career, perhaps as I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:48

branched out to step outside of my comfort zone a bit more, doing things

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:52

like this with you, Lee, um, reading more, absorbing more like a sponge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:57

Um, but it's also something that I've heard others talk more about, probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:01

in relation to continuous learning, innovation in organizations and impacts on

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:08

culture are probably the areas where I've, I've heard this sort of word curiosity

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:12

come up more in relation to leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

So I thought we should explore maybe what we mean when we talk about

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:19

leadership and curiosity and whether or not we think it's a core leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:24

skill, and how do we define leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:28

So I'm just gonna pose that massive question to you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:31

first thing in the morning.

Lee: 00:04:35

When I'm not feeling the most curious.

Lee: 00:04:37

So for, for me, curiosity is all about the, I suppose, the art of

Lee: 00:04:43

asking questions, but not just of other people, um, or of people.

Lee: 00:04:48

It's, it's this thing of having an in, I see it as like an

Lee: 00:04:52

internal, an external curiosity.

Lee: 00:04:54

So the curiosity you have about who you are as a leader and what

Lee: 00:04:59

you stand for and what you want to achieve and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:05:02

And then there's a curiosity about others and what's going

Lee: 00:05:05

on external to and around you.

Lee: 00:05:08

So as I say, I don't think it's just a people thing.

Lee: 00:05:10

It can be an environment, it can be a context thing as well.

Lee: 00:05:14

Absolutely it's a core skill.

Lee: 00:05:17

I think it's, it's very aligned with, um, your communications

Lee: 00:05:22

and engagement skills actually.

Lee: 00:05:24

I think it's part and parcel of that, and it's that art almost of

Lee: 00:05:28

being able to put yourself in the shoes of either other people or

Lee: 00:05:33

other situations that you are really exploring something from all angles.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:37

Yeah, I really like that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:39

That's make, oh, it's, it's really getting to me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:41

Cause I'm like, oh, it's making me feel curious now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:43

This is exciting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:44

It's all the stuff I love.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:45

So yeah, I think I like that um, position it as like internal and external, be

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:50

curious about yourself as a leader, but also part of your role, I guess, as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:54

leader, isn't it, is to be curious about what's happening your organisation,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:59

your stakeholders, clients, whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:01

So, so,

Lee: 00:06:01

it's both.

Lee: 00:06:02

It's not either or, would say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:04

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:05

And yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:06

Yes, I am agreeing with that in a like absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:09

Cuz it would kind of be weird, I guess, to be totally curious and inquisitive

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

about your own leadership style, but without having that external element

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:17

to it in terms of of the impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:19

So for me, kind of the things that you've touched on that definitely resonate for

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:23

me around that sort of growth I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:25

Like growth as a, a leader growth for organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:29

Um, and there was something for me about adaptability as well, cuz I think, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:34

know, we've talked before about the current climate that leaders are operating

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:37

in and that need perhaps to be adaptable to change or what, you know, when

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:42

something happens, how you respond to it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:44

And Ithink sometimes through that curiosity that can enable you, enable

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:49

you to be more, more adaptable and, and I guess on a grander scale,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:54

for me there's something about transformation and innovation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

You know, organizationally within a team, whatever that might look like for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:03

You know, being led by that curious nature that you might have as

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:07

a leader or a leadership team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

So it's sounding quite exciting like something that I definitely want

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:13

to, to explore more, but I guess in the, in the space of benefits.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:18

So what, what are the benefits of leadership curiosity to

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:22

you in your organization?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:24

And I think you've touched on one around communication and connection, which is

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:28

something we've talked about in an entire episode and is probably a thread that goes

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:33

through many, um, of our conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:35

But for me that curiosity definitely helps to improve communication and connection.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:41

You know, what are the other benefits of being a curious leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:44

I guess is my question to you, Lee?

Lee: 00:07:47

There's a, um, have you read Matthew Syed's Rebel Ideas book?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:52

Mostly because you recommend it a lot through

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:55

our conversations, Lee, so.

Lee: 00:07:57

So, um, there's a section in that book where he's talking about,

Lee: 00:08:02

um, diverse thinking and he, he references a study that Google did into

Lee: 00:08:07

psychological safety in, in the workplace.

Lee: 00:08:10

And it showed that, um, where teams have higher psychological safety, They

Lee: 00:08:16

were less likely to leave, more likely to harness diverse ideas from each

Lee: 00:08:21

other, uh, bring in more revenue, and were rated as being twice as effective

Lee: 00:08:26

by their senior leadership team.

Lee: 00:08:28

And for me, that, that summarizes the environment, I suppose, that you

Lee: 00:08:32

need to create, to have a curious team and, and people in the team.

Lee: 00:08:38

And I think then that therefore shows the benefits that you can reap if you

Lee: 00:08:43

create the right environment for people.

Lee: 00:08:46

Um, So absolutely I think if you've got that curiosity, it completely helps

Lee: 00:08:53

the bottom line of the organization.

Lee: 00:08:54

It helps morale, it helps create that sense of safety in an organization.

Lee: 00:09:00

That's really important.

Lee: 00:09:01

And we've, we've done a whole other episode of that, so I

Lee: 00:09:03

won't talk about that too much.

Lee: 00:09:05

Um, I think there's also something about if you as a leader are demonstrating,

Lee: 00:09:11

um, curiosity, um, as a behavior, That is almost given permission for

Lee: 00:09:17

other people to be like that as well.

Lee: 00:09:19

So if they see you being curious, they will be curious too.

Lee: 00:09:22

If you shut things down, you are removing that safety.

Lee: 00:09:26

So I think there are a whole cultural ramifications in, in how an organization

Lee: 00:09:32

behaves based on how, how much or little you are in terms of curiosity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:39

And I think sometimes as you've been talking for me, I wonder

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:42

if it's the word curiosity that might be a bit off-putting for some

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:47

types of leader and leadership team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:49

Cuz I guess it, I don't know, it just sounds, I was gonna say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:53

it sounds like quite a fun word.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:54

Like it doesn't sound like a traditional word that you would

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:57

use when you describe leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:00

I just, I wonder if when you can then talk about the benefits of being

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:04

curious, that's when it really hits home to leaders because what the research

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:09

shows and, and what we are talking about is the fact that it does have an

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:12

impact on organizational performance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:14

So being a curious leader and creating that culture of

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:17

curiosity, you know, exploration, transformation, innovation, enables

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:22

the organization to perform better.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:24

And maybe the word curious doesn't perhaps capture that in a way that

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:28

would hit home with some of those more performance focused leaders.

Lee: 00:10:31

Yeah, I mean like that links to the whole, um, conversation we had

Lee: 00:10:35

in, in previous episodes about what style of leader you are and we, I

Lee: 00:10:39

talked about the disc, and if you are like a D leader, you're very directed.

Lee: 00:10:44

You asking a fewer questions because you think you know the answer or you

Lee: 00:10:50

think that you know, your way is the way that you want to get things done.

Lee: 00:10:54

And I've certainly worked with leaders who, um, used to think a

Lee: 00:10:58

bit like, oh, if I communicate too much, I'm gonna slow things down.

Lee: 00:11:02

If I engage people, I'm gonna slow things down.

Lee: 00:11:04

That that that notion of, oh, if I ask too many questions, we're

Lee: 00:11:08

gonna have all these things that are just gonna confuse the picture.

Lee: 00:11:11

I dunno why I'm talking in a voice like

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:14

Are you channeling a specific leader that you've worked with because

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:18

I'm loving that you actually had a voice.

Lee: 00:11:23

Obviously was, yes.

Lee: 00:11:25

I'm like, uh, Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost, when the, when the spirit has entered me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:32

The spirit of poor leadership has entered you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:35

We must banish it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:36

Like we need to get that, get that gone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:38

We don't want that.

Lee: 00:11:39

But I'm also a bit scared that it came so easily.

Lee: 00:11:41

Then

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:48

Oh dear.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:48

Oh, I've lost the thread of what

Lee: 00:11:50

I've, I've al, I've also got in my head the whole way through from the

Lee: 00:11:54

point that, from the time that you said, We're gonna be talking about curiosity.

Lee: 00:11:58

I'm just thinking of the, the eighties band Curiosity killed Cat, and I love,

Lee: 00:12:04

you know, I've got their vinyl downstairs.

Lee: 00:12:05

I think that might be my soundtrack for today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:09

Oh, I love how our conversation goes, goes

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:12

ways that I do not expect.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:15

Whoopy Goldberg Ghost reference Curiosity killed the cat.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

For, for

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

any.

Lee: 00:12:22

is, this is what you get at eight 30 in the morning from me by the

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:25

I was gonna say for any younger listeners, the

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:28

references may mean nothing to you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:30

We'll perhaps put some links in the show notes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:34

Um, so we were talking about the benefits of, um, leadership, curiosity,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:38

and whether or not it's that phrase curiosity that perhaps puts some

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:42

performance focus leaders off.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:44

You did your performance focus, leader voice who, uh, which was,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:48

uh, yeah interesting for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:50

I've never had that experience with you before, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:52

Um, but I think what we're saying is we, we talked about the culture, haven't we?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:57

We've talked about creating psychological safety, but you know, being curious

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:01

as a leader in your organization enables both you and those in your

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:06

organization to create those healthier work relationships be focused on learning

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:11

opportunities and improvement, which is only hopefully going to lead to

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:16

better decision making, more effective problem solving, increased innovation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:22

So for me, it feels like being as a leader is a, a win-win.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:26

I'm not sure why you wouldn't be curious as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:29

But you mentioned that, And as did I, that for being curious as a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:33

doesn't come naturally to some people and you've worked with people who don't have

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:37

perhaps that more open, um, approach.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:39

And naturally for me, I am quite an inquisitive person, so I feel like

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:44

I'm already operating in a mindset where I'm happy to be open-minded

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:49

and I wanna ask lots of questions, probably sometimes too many for some

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:53

people, and I really annoy them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:55

But if, is it something that can be learned, being curious, if it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:59

not your natural way of operating?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:01

Like how do you get into that head space if you are naturally not a curious person?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:07

And to ha what advice do you have for me when I'm maybe being over curious?

Lee: 00:14:11

Well, I was gonna, I was gonna say there is a really fine line

Lee: 00:14:15

between, um, being curious and being intrusive and I think leaders and, and

Lee: 00:14:22

you not just with leaders in people.

Lee: 00:14:24

And you see, and I've heard this often with, um, people who are trying to

Lee: 00:14:31

become better allies, for example.

Lee: 00:14:33

And then they ask, they put the burden on someone that, that's in that maybe

Lee: 00:14:37

protected group or minoritized group, and they start asking loads of questions

Lee: 00:14:42

and get really personal about stuff.

Lee: 00:14:44

And actually they, they create more of an uh, uh, more of an issue by being

Lee: 00:14:50

intrusive rather than inquisitive.

Lee: 00:14:52

So there is a real fine line I think sometimes.

Lee: 00:14:56

For me, it's around what's your motivation behind learning more and how genuine

Lee: 00:15:03

you are in your motivation to others.

Lee: 00:15:06

So if they, if, if another person thinks that you are interested in

Lee: 00:15:09

them, genuinely, they're gonna open up if they think there's another reason.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:15

It's a motive behind it.

Lee: 00:15:18

Yeah.

Lee: 00:15:18

Um, Or, or it's seen as a bit unusual in the way that you're questioning

Lee: 00:15:24

all of that, then I think that's when the barriers are put up can

Lee: 00:15:27

be offended by, by that curiosity.

Lee: 00:15:29

So there is, I just wanted to say that cuz you, you've mentioned

Lee: 00:15:32

about being too, too curious.

Lee: 00:15:34

But, to come back to your point around can you learn curiosity?

Lee: 00:15:39

I, I absolutely think you can.

Lee: 00:15:42

I've been coaching.

Lee: 00:15:43

I mean, I would say this as, as a coach, but the whole art of coaching is, is

Lee: 00:15:48

around curiosity and helping others to explore things that they wouldn't

Lee: 00:15:53

naturally be thinking of and challenging their thinking and, and, and do using

Lee: 00:15:58

questions in a way to help people explore new opportunities and, and new thinking.

Lee: 00:16:05

For me, I think leaders, there's several areas you could be working on, either

Lee: 00:16:10

with yourself or or with someone else.

Lee: 00:16:13

So, um, you know, you learning to let go that your way is the best way

Lee: 00:16:18

and not assuming what the answers are is something that you can work on.

Lee: 00:16:22

Learning to try new things rather than just sitting in your comfort

Lee: 00:16:27

zone that you, you always sit in.

Lee: 00:16:29

Getting comfortable with risk taking and making mistakes.

Lee: 00:16:34

Uh, learning how to question properly, so, Often when people ask

Lee: 00:16:39

questions, the questions can be, um, closed questions, for example.

Lee: 00:16:44

So they're not really off, they're not really exploring in a curious way.

Lee: 00:16:49

They're, they're leading and directing in their question even

Lee: 00:16:51

though they think they're not.

Lee: 00:16:53

Avoiding why questions, because that can often bring defensiveness in people.

Lee: 00:16:57

If you, if you lead with, well, why have you done that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:01

Why do you do it that way?

Lee: 00:17:03

So the types of questions and the, the nature of the questions is

Lee: 00:17:06

something that you can learn and, and, you know, trial and error often.

Lee: 00:17:11

You can learn how to listen.

Lee: 00:17:13

So come from a point of listening to understand rather

Lee: 00:17:17

than listening to be heard.

Lee: 00:17:20

And we've talked before in previous episodes around the notion of active

Lee: 00:17:23

listening and it, and actually most times when people have a conversation,

Lee: 00:17:27

they're already playing through what's the next point I wanna make?

Lee: 00:17:30

What's this I'm going to, what's the point I want to get across?

Lee: 00:17:32

What's my next question?

Lee: 00:17:33

And they're not really listening with all of their senses to

Lee: 00:17:37

understand what's being said.

Lee: 00:17:39

You can also learn how to reframe and refrain from judgment, because

Lee: 00:17:45

often judgment can close down your curiosity if you are already assuming

Lee: 00:17:49

or you think you know something.

Lee: 00:17:50

So all of those are examples of things that you can be working on

Lee: 00:17:56

and probably, you know, even leaders who might be great at that will

Lee: 00:17:59

still be working on all those areas.

Lee: 00:18:01

It's not something about you either have you don't.

Lee: 00:18:03

These are things that you, you know, you are constantly striving to, to know

Lee: 00:18:08

more about yourself and about others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:10

Yeah, and the point you make about the listening I think is really

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:13

important, because I think people can mistake curiosity for just being about

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:18

the questions, like the asking and the trying to find out, but you're not

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:22

actually going to find anything out if you don't genuinely and actively listen

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

to the responses that you're getting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:28

So I think that is a really important reminder that isn't just about the, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:33

know, I'm working out how I'm gonna go in and firing loads of questions at people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:37

It's actually about really trying to uncover kind of evidence and feedback and

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:42

genuinely listen to what people are saying or demonstrating cuz they might not be

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

saying it to you and their actions might be demonstrating something very different.

Lee: 00:18:52

It's completely giving, giving that space.

Lee: 00:18:54

So if you are in a conversation with someone, and in this is something that

Lee: 00:18:57

we do from a coaching perspective, we don't actually talk a lot as coaches.

Lee: 00:19:02

We, we stay silent and we observe and we let people fill the silence.

Lee: 00:19:08

And in that silence often that's when the new thoughts and, and the new ideas can

Lee: 00:19:12

come from, rather than me trying to direct a conversation in a, in a particular way.

Lee: 00:19:17

And so I think that's the, the same can be true in, in a leadership setting.

Lee: 00:19:23

Having that silence, allowing people to that what they say first might

Lee: 00:19:28

not be the, the real thinking.

Lee: 00:19:32

They might need to start to talk it through.

Lee: 00:19:34

And then, then new, new exploratory ideas will, will come through.

Lee: 00:19:39

But it's not just about that, that interpersonal conversations either

Lee: 00:19:45

as a leader, it could be what are you, you know, going through maybe

Lee: 00:19:52

the experience that your customers or your staff go through and learning

Lee: 00:19:56

or, or rather, Witnessing how they see things by, by experiencing it

Lee: 00:20:03

yourself, that can be a curiosity because then, then you can be understanding,

Lee: 00:20:07

well, what's happening here?

Lee: 00:20:09

What, what's the reason that this happens?

Lee: 00:20:13

What's the benefit of this happening?

Lee: 00:20:14

Blah, blah, blah.

Lee: 00:20:15

Um, it could be observing things, just sitting and looking at evidence

Lee: 00:20:21

that comes through and reports.

Lee: 00:20:23

So it's not just about um, physical conversation, I suppose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:28

Yeah, and I, I think that's interesting, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:31

Cause maybe that's a reframe for people who are not as comfortable with being

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

a curious leader, that maybe it's more about being a leader who learns.

Lee: 00:20:38

Yeah.

Lee: 00:20:39

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:39

about the things that are important to, um, them and their

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

organization and their stakeholders, and some of that will be about that

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:46

self-development piece in the truest sense of learning as well, won't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:50

That none of us are the finished article when it comes to being a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:54

So actually part of being curious and being a leader who learns might be about

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

developing skills and experiences that you maybe don't have yet, or you might

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:04

be looking at other organizations and going and learning from them, shadowing

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:08

people you know through, like you say, through your coaching and mentoring.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:11

So I think there are quite a lot of aspects to that curiosity as a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:17

and from the conversation that we are having it, I think it does show that they,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:21

they're things that you can start to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:23

So if you feel like you're not naturally a curious person, that doesn't mean

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:27

that you can't be a curious leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:29

There's lots of things that you put in place to, to enable that and, and have a

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:33

different mindset about it, is brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:13

I wanted to move this into a slightly different space in this part of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:17

conversation, because I just, Wanted to pose the question, um, or the situation,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:23

I guess, which is what happens if you have lost that desire to be curious?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:30

So as a leader, maybe you see it as a core skill, as we've talked about, to be

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

curious for some reason that curiosity doesn't seem to be there anymore.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:41

Is it a sign or symptom of something bigger?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:44

bigger Like how do you work through being in that headspace as leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:48

Because I do think that happens and I definitely have been in that position

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:52

myself, and I've worked with other leaders who I've almost seen that happen

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:56

to, and, and it's all it, it has always felt like it is a sign or symptom,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:01

something else, but I'd be really interested to hear your views on Lee.

Lee: 00:23:05

So a leading question there that

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:07

I was, yeah,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:09

it was me going, are you okay?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:11

Rather than, how are you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:13

But the trouble is I know that if you don't agree with me, that you'll be very

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:17

comfortable in challenging me, cuz we have a very psychologically safe relationship.

Lee: 00:23:23

Um, so yeah, I, it links to passion for what you are doing for, for me,

Lee: 00:23:30

I think if you get into that space where you, and you might not see it

Lee: 00:23:35

as I've lost curiosity, you might be saying, oh, it feels like Groundhog Day

Lee: 00:23:39

and I'm always doing the same stuff.

Lee: 00:23:40

Um, if you feel you are being passive and not being active in the

Lee: 00:23:44

way that you are, you are leading.

Lee: 00:23:46

If you feel like you are a bit of a bystander.

Lee: 00:23:50

For me, they're all signs that you are checking out.

Lee: 00:23:53

And we've, we've talked about that, that in previous episodes before, haven't we?

Lee: 00:23:56

Um, and if you're checking out, I, I definitely think your curiosity

Lee: 00:24:01

will be impacted because you're not, you're just not as invested in the

Lee: 00:24:04

outcome as you would be otherwise.

Lee: 00:24:07

So, um, yeah, I do think that's something that you need to be aware of.

Lee: 00:24:11

One of, one of my signs actually was, um, I wasn't excited or curious about

Lee: 00:24:18

the future in one of my organizations.

Lee: 00:24:21

So I, I didn't see myself being a part of it.

Lee: 00:24:24

Um, and so I found it really hard to connect and that that curiosity

Lee: 00:24:30

absolutely wasn't there because I just didn't think that it was my future.

Lee: 00:24:35

Um, and so that was a big warning sign for me and I think if you

Lee: 00:24:41

are an engaged and curious leader, you do need that forward focus.

Lee: 00:24:46

If you are someone that's, that's just working in the here and now,

Lee: 00:24:50

or constantly looking back and trying to analyze what's happened,

Lee: 00:24:54

Rather than that need to look ahead.

Lee: 00:24:57

I think you bring all kinds of bias into your thinking.

Lee: 00:25:00

You kind of get entrenched, don't you, into, into this space and the

Lee: 00:25:04

growth and the learning isn't there.

Lee: 00:25:06

So yeah, I, I think, I think it can be really dangerous for yourself

Lee: 00:25:11

and for your organization if you get into that space where just are not.

Lee: 00:25:20

Yeah, you might not see it as I've, I've lost my curiosity,

Lee: 00:25:23

but, but the spark's gone somehow.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:26

And it's interesting, isn't it, to think about your warning signs, like if you

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:30

recognize them in yourselves other people, or if others recognize them in you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

So I think that's, you've got a lot of insight that you can tell.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:38

Like that was a point in my career when I had lost that curiosity because of this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:43

And I guess, yeah, if I reflect on my own situation, Of the times when

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:47

I feel like I've lost my curiosity or my spark or motivation, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:52

It's about being motivated to do what you do is probably when

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:55

I've almost done the opposite.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:57

So rather than not seeing myself as part of the future, it's been about almost

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:03

feeling, feeling sad at the loss of something in the past, as in like when,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:07

when it used to be like this, that's when it felt good here and I enjoyed it and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:11

and almost getting a bit stuck on what it used to be like in the good old days.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:16

Um, so I guess, like you say, not being focused on the future, but with that

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:20

slightly different, different reflection.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:22

So I think maybe it is important for leaders to have an opportunity to

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:26

reflect on whether there's been periods in their career where they have lost

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:30

that curiosity, that motivation that passion, whatever we want to call it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:34

Um, just so that they can be aware of that should that happen into the future.

Lee: 00:26:39

We, when we all have, uh, Down days, don't we?

Lee: 00:26:42

You know, I'm not expecting everyone to come skipping into

Lee: 00:26:45

work every day singing Kumbaya.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:47

Full of curiosity?

Lee: 00:26:50

Yeah.

Lee: 00:26:51

There are days as, as an introvert, I need to need time to kind of reflect

Lee: 00:26:58

and retract myself and have that space to think and, and all of that.

Lee: 00:27:03

Um, you know, women, um, Just, just going through their, their

Lee: 00:27:09

monthly cycle of life have different energy levels and motivation.

Lee: 00:27:14

So all of those things can play into how your curiosity and how you

Lee: 00:27:18

might be feeling about a situation can, can ebb and flow o over time.

Lee: 00:27:22

I think the, the, the issue and the warning sign is when that's

Lee: 00:27:26

sustained over a longer period.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:29

Yeah, I, I would agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

When you're in a constant space where it feels like that's lacking, then that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:37

probably the time to reconsider what

Lee: 00:27:39

And, and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:40

what your options are.

Lee: 00:27:41

and you know, when I said like, one of my signs was, so I wasn't

Lee: 00:27:44

excited or curious about the future.

Lee: 00:27:47

My, my main task at the time was helping an organization to

Lee: 00:27:51

develop its future strategy.

Lee: 00:27:52

I mean, like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:53

Yeah.

Lee: 00:27:54

if I couldn't get excited by it.

Lee: 00:27:57

Woo.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:59

Alarms.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:02

So, um, we are getting to that point in the conversation where we probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:06

should be thinking about wrapping up and we've covered quite a lot, I think,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:10

in the conversation and it's been yeah, more of an exploration maybe rather than,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:15

um, uh, some the way some of our normal episodes go, but we always like a how to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:21

And you touched on, um, some really great advice in the question about, uh, if

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:26

you can learn to be curious, but my, um, how to for this episode is, uh, how do

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:33

you demonstrate curiosity as a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:36

So what would your top tips be.

Lee: 00:28:38

So the questions and the types of questions are, are really important.

Lee: 00:28:42

Thinking about how you ask questions and then how you listen to understand

Lee: 00:28:49

those, those, I think if you're gonna work on any skill out of anything,

Lee: 00:28:53

those are the two to, to really work on that will benefit your leadership,

Lee: 00:28:58

you know, totally across the board.

Lee: 00:29:01

So, so that would be my first point.

Lee: 00:29:04

I think my second point to that is then around, and we haven't really touched on,

Lee: 00:29:09

on this in the conversation, but um, it's about who you surround yourself with.

Lee: 00:29:15

And we've talked before around, um, making sure you have a support network

Lee: 00:29:20

and people that aren't just yes peoples that they're not confirming your biases

Lee: 00:29:25

and all of that kind of stuff, but I think your curiosity comes the more

Lee: 00:29:31

diverse the people are around you and the thinking of the people around you and

Lee: 00:29:37

the, there's evidence that says obviously the, the wider your network of people,

Lee: 00:29:44

the more diverse it's likely to be.

Lee: 00:29:46

Particularly those you don't interact with a lot, because if you're not interacting

Lee: 00:29:52

with them a lot, They're not necessarily gonna be aligned to your way of thinking

Lee: 00:29:56

or seeing things in the same way as you.

Lee: 00:29:58

So when you do then interact with them, they can bring stuff that's fresh,

Lee: 00:30:04

um, fresh thinking into a situation.

Lee: 00:30:07

So I think working on where your relationships lie, how diverse

Lee: 00:30:12

that network is, and all of that I think will really help you as well.

Lee: 00:30:15

And we've talked about that, learned behavior.

Lee: 00:30:17

If you see people that are being inquisitive, you are

Lee: 00:30:19

more likely to be inquisitive.

Lee: 00:30:21

So I think that would be my third thing to work on from a leadership point

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:25

I love it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:26

And I, I have nothing extra to add cuz it's like you've read my own notes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:30

So, um, so I, I was all for the questioning and the active listening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:36

I guess the only addition I would say there, which we did mention in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:39

conversation, is don't be defensive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:41

I mean, we talked about not, not creating a defensiveness in others, but I also

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:45

think for you to be curious, you have to be open, um, and, and not be defensive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:51

And I think again, about that role modeling, it's encouraging others to be

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

inquisitive and, and curious, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:56

So it's, it's how do you make that okay in your team and your

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:59

organization, which is totally about, um, culture and psychological

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:04

safety and that role modeling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:05

And we've done episodes on psychological safety and culture and strategy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:09

So I would definitely recommend if you haven't listened to

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:12

them, go in to have a listen to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:14

those So thank you, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:17

Thank you for allowing me to be curious in this conversation and

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:20

find out more about your thoughts around, um, curiosity and leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:25

Um, I feel a bit weird that it's like the end of episode 10,

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:28

which is the end of this series.

Lee: 00:31:30

know there's gonna be a sneaky bonus though,

Lee: 00:31:33

isn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:33

Oh, there's always a sneaky bonus with us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:35

We can't keep away.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:37

So yes, keep your ears and eyes peeled for the sneaky bonus edition

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:41

that will land at some point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:43

Um, I really hope people have found this episode and this series useful.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:48

So please do leave a rating, review, get in touch with us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:52

If there's anything that we've talked about that you are curious about or

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:56

you want us to cover, um, in future episodes, I, um, well, we will be back.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:01

We will be back for, um, another podcast series, but we are also, um, completely

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:06

active over in our substack community.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:09

So that's the place to go if you're gonna miss us between series.

Lee: 00:32:14

Yeah, we, we've got the book club to come.

Lee: 00:32:17

We're also doing private recordings over on substack so ask us anything

Lee: 00:32:22

sessions you can submit your questions on all things leadership or anything.

Lee: 00:32:26

Actually, happy to answer anything if you want some recipe

Lee: 00:32:29

ideas, book recommendations.

Lee: 00:32:31

What we watched on tv?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:33

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:33

Any, anything about detective programs or books?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:36

Uh, vinyl.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:38

It appears Curiosity Killed the Cat.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:40

That was a reference I didn't think was coming in this episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:43

Um, so yeah, pretty much ask us anything you like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:46

We're gonna be open-minded enough, we won't be defensive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:49

Please don't judge us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:51

All the learnings from how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:54

So, um, on that note, uh, get out there and take the lead until next time.