The reunion

Lee: 00:00:00

Hello, we're back again.

Lee: 00:00:02

I know we said goodbye at the end of the last episode, which was the

Lee: 00:00:05

official end of series one, but we did want to do a wrap up for the series.

Lee: 00:00:12

I dunno about you Carrie Ann, but I really hate those shows where

Lee: 00:00:15

basically they just rehash all the content that you've either watched or

Lee: 00:00:18

listened to over the past few weeks.

Lee: 00:00:20

And then they make a best of.

Lee: 00:00:21

I want new content I want behind the scenes.

Lee: 00:00:26

I want the tea.

Lee: 00:00:28

Is that how you, is that how these young people say it?

Lee: 00:00:30

I want the tea.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:31

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:32

I've never heard that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:33

Cause clearly I'm not young enough to know

Lee: 00:01:15

You've probably heard me talk about below deck before, if I, I love

Lee: 00:01:19

an after I love an after party where it's like, did that really happen?

Lee: 00:01:23

Did so and so sleep with so, and so, I mean, we, we, obviously, none of that goes

Lee: 00:01:27

on behind the scenes of how to take the

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

What sort?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

What sort of podcast series do you think this is lee?

Lee: 00:01:33

But I want more than just the best bit.

Lee: 00:01:36

So that's what, that's what we are giving you today.

Lee: 00:01:38

We wanted to have a bit of reflection, maybe on some of the discussions

Lee: 00:01:43

that we've had this series.

Lee: 00:01:44

I know I've certainly had moments where, you know, we've been messaging

Lee: 00:01:49

each other going, this would've been great to discuss in the episode.

Lee: 00:01:52

Oh, oh shit.

Lee: 00:01:53

How did we miss that great big thing over there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:55

And isn't it always the way that we've recorded an episode and

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:59

literally the next day something happens.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:01

We're like, why did that not happen yesterday?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:03

Because that would've been brilliant for the episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:05

So there has been a constant back and forth on the WhatsApp

Lee: 00:02:07

We want to put it right in this episode, that being said, it's highly

Lee: 00:02:12

probable, that all the things that I've thought of over the series,

Lee: 00:02:17

I promptly will forget as we have this conversation and I'll still

Lee: 00:02:20

be on the WhatsApp a bit later.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:22

That's absolutely fine.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

I don't mind.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

And I have to say one of my first reflections is I'm not sure the soapbox

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:28

came out as much as I was anticipating it would cuz we had that chat before we

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:32

started didn't we, that there's probably gonna be and there definitely have been

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:36

soapbox moments, but I don't feel like I've had to dust it off as many times as

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:40

I thought for you to step up on to Lee.

Lee: 00:02:43

I, I think I've perhaps been, you know, a little bit more mature

Lee: 00:02:47

in my outlook in this series.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:49

The more mellow

Lee: 00:02:51

not so hotheaded as obviously the Insta brigade brings out on me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:56

I love it.

Lee: 00:02:57

So to kick things off with my coaching hat on, what have you

Lee: 00:03:02

learned about yourself, Carrie Ann, through this last series?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

What have I learned about myself?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:07

Well, do you know what this sounds like a really cliche thing to

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

say, but, but my learning is that there's always more to learn.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:14

So, no matter how much experience you have, there,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:17

there is always more to learn.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:18

There's always a different perspective to the one that you've got.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

There's always areas that you can develop in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:25

And I've also figured out that it is actually okay not to know it all and

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:31

not to have all the answers and actually part of what helps your development.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:35

I think as a leader and as a human being is just to be more curious and to explore

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:42

a bit more, the things you don't know about get a different point of view on

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:45

the things you think you do know about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:47

So for me it's been nice to think I don't have to know it all and that's okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

And actually I'm gonna learn more things along the way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:53

And I guess one of the other things that's been quite an eye

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

opener for me and it's made me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:58

I, I knew this anyway, but I think it's made me think it even more

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

just the power of our words and our actions on other people and that

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:07

we should never underestimate that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:09

And hopefully through this series of take the lead, we've had some

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:13

positive impact from, for people getting them to think in a different

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:16

way, consider their leadership style.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:18

But I think also some of the conversations that we've had around different

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:22

topics, we've shared examples where.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:25

It's really made you realize on the flip side of that, the negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:29

impact that, that people's words and actions as leaders can have on others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:33

So that's something that I think was on my mind when, when you asked that.

Lee: 00:04:38

mm-hmm I, I felt that it's been so easy to find things to talk about.

Lee: 00:04:45

And that was always a worry.

Lee: 00:04:46

When we first started how to take the lead over on Insta all that time

Lee: 00:04:50

ago, we questioned would we have enough stuff to talk about and we've

Lee: 00:04:56

revisited themes and we've, we've looked at themes from different

Lee: 00:04:59

angles and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:05:02

But I don't know, it just feels like there's a real movement at the moment of

Lee: 00:05:09

the types of things that we need to be talking about in the leadership world.

Lee: 00:05:13

And people are starting to be more open to having those types of conversations.

Lee: 00:05:18

And I don't think necessarily the things we've talked about are a groundbreaking

Lee: 00:05:23

we've certainly, you know, there's been a few occasions where we've gone oh,

Lee: 00:05:26

so, and so's been talking about that, or I've seen this TikTok on that topic or,

Lee: 00:05:30

or whatever, and, and we're like, We've just been the same as everyone else, but

Lee: 00:05:34

then my reflection has been well, no, there's obviously a real need for people

Lee: 00:05:40

to be having more of those conversations.

Lee: 00:05:43

And we all bring our own unique experiences and views

Lee: 00:05:48

on each of these topics.

Lee: 00:05:50

And I think we could redo this whole series again, and we would come out

Lee: 00:05:55

with different things on the topics as well, because they're so of the

Lee: 00:05:59

moment and they are so different to perhaps what the leadership lens

Lee: 00:06:03

looked like maybe a decade or so ago.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:06

And it's funny, isn't it, like, there have been a few times where

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:09

we've seen content elsewhere where we're like, oh, we've literally just recorded

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:12

an episode of the podcast about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:14

And there's that, that moment where you feel slightly disappointed as in

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:18

like, oh, someone else is talking about it, but actually that's brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:22

Good people are talking about it, cuz it means it is important stuff in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:25

leadership space it's conversations that we need to be having and that

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:29

we should be encouraging others to have and being more open about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:32

So yeah, like you, I've tried to flip that onto a more positive note going.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:36

That means we're on the right track with what we're talking about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:38

And we're talking about things that are important to people.

Lee: 00:06:41

Yeah.

Lee: 00:06:42

Is there anything that you've, I suppose learned more about through the course

Lee: 00:06:47

of our discussions or perhaps changed your mind since we've discussed it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:51

I mean the standout one for me, which is gonna be

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:53

really obvious when I say it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:55

And we talked about this I think in, in the episode was around the ally ship.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:01

I say it right either.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:01

Now I've caught off you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:04

allyship conversation definitely as I.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

I realize that sometimes I have not taken action on things because I've been

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:12

fearful that I don't know enough about them and the learning for me through

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:18

not only the conversation we had as part of the how to take the lead series, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:21

conversations we had around that episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:24

You know, and I'll mention it because it was definitely one of your big soap box

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:29

moments around cricket Scotland, but That conversation that we had around that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:33

And then the subsequent episode made me realize that actually, if I am in a space

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:39

or you are as a leader in a space where you feel slightly fearful, that it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:42

like, I'm not gonna make a comment on this because I don't know enough about it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:46

Actually pause for a moment and reflect because the fact that you don't know

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:50

enough about it is the exact reason why you should be taking action.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:54

That's definitely something that I've learned for me that actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:58

That, that was the point that I should have gone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

I need to understand more about this and take action.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:02

It's not the time for me to do nothing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:04

So that for me was one of my bigger standout moments, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:09

in terms of, of my own thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:11

And what's changed for me.

Lee: 00:08:13

I had a couple of people message me similarly after that episode came

Lee: 00:08:17

out and they were saying that they've definitely, either need to pay more

Lee: 00:08:21

attention or not to be scared to, to talk about stuff because they

Lee: 00:08:25

don't know enough about the topic.

Lee: 00:08:27

And obviously on that episode, we were talking specifically about cricket.

Lee: 00:08:31

I have to say I'm still on my soapbox about it though.

Lee: 00:08:34

And I've, I, I I've am almost becoming like the angry, old

Lee: 00:08:39

person that writes to the letters

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:41

What did you message me the other day about Nicola sturgeon?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:44

You're like, she didn't wanna say something about cricket Scotland being

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:47

institutionally racist, but she's gonna tweet about, was it CA I can't remember.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:50

Was it.

Lee: 00:08:51

Kermit the frog.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:52

Oh, come it, the frog.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:53

It was something really so benign.

Lee: 00:08:55

Yeah.

Lee: 00:08:56

So I might actually just have to mute her account because it's really irritating me.

Lee: 00:09:00

She tweeted about some journalist that I don't, I don't know

Lee: 00:09:04

what the story is behind it.

Lee: 00:09:06

I dunno who the journalist is, but she did A tweet condemning some people

Lee: 00:09:10

that were offensive to this journalist and saying this, you know, this isn't

Lee: 00:09:13

on treatment of people this way.

Lee: 00:09:15

And I thought, I, I nearly did the angry response tweet, but I

Lee: 00:09:19

I'm very conscious that, you know, that will come across in, in a way.

Lee: 00:09:23

And, I can't get over whether I'm just feeling really bitter about it all now.

Lee: 00:09:27

And so it's just grinding my gears or whether actually I should

Lee: 00:09:31

continue to keep challenging it because otherwise I'm accepting it.

Lee: 00:09:35

And I don't know where I'm sitting in the situation.

Lee: 00:09:37

I'm really conflicted.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:39

But, you know, what I love is that we can have this conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:41

about being conflicted about things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:43

And that's part of, I dunno, part of why I feel so passionate about this

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:47

podcast series and what came before it, as well as you say it was instant

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:51

lives before, just about that ability to have those unfiltered conversations

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:56

about things and that's okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:57

So I think too many people keep stuff like that bottled up and then.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:00

It's you know, does it create an inertia or like you say, an a sort of passive

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:05

acceptance of something because actually really what's happening is you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:09

conflicted inside and you don't know where to have the conversation to try and get to

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:13

a space that you feel more comfortable in.

Lee: 00:10:15

Yeah.

Lee: 00:10:16

As a brief aside the, the lovely listeners can't see this, but I can see

Lee: 00:10:20

Carrie Ann's lovely face on the screen.

Lee: 00:10:22

As I'm talking she's she's adjusted her glasses and one is

Lee: 00:10:25

much, much higher than the other.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:27

Oh, sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:29

I've just caught sight of myself and it is so offput in it's because I've, I've

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:34

realized I need to do something with this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:36

So boring for the listeners.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:37

I need to do something with this screw on this arm of my glasses, because it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:40

too tight and it, it digs in behind my ear and it's worse when I've got

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

the headphones on, but if I take them off, you just become a pixelated blur.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:48

So I can't work out, which is worse, worse for you to see me with my, I might

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:52

as well just have a big plaster around the corner of them like Jack duckworth.

Lee: 00:10:55

You've totally given me Jack Duckworth vibes.

Lee: 00:10:57

That exactly who I was about to call

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

And this will be interesting for our listeners to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:02

know how relevant that reference is to some people and not to others.

Lee: 00:11:06

Yeah.

Lee: 00:11:07

Yeah.

Lee: 00:11:07

Message us and let us know if you got the reference or not, cuz it just help us

Lee: 00:11:12

with our demographic and equality data.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:16

right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:16

I've readjusted them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:17

Is that better?

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:18

Is it less off putting for

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:19

you?

Lee: 00:11:19

Thank you.

Lee: 00:11:20

Thank you.

Lee: 00:11:20

On the allyship front, I think the other thing that, that cropped

Lee: 00:11:26

out at me, actually you flagged it to me was the welcome trust.

Lee: 00:11:30

And that was a big moment in the last couple of weeks, since we did that

Lee: 00:11:34

episode and it was really refreshing to see a open and honest acceptance

Lee: 00:11:40

that they have not done well enough that they've continued to review their

Lee: 00:11:44

practice since their first review.

Lee: 00:11:47

That it's a really hard read if you read the full report again,

Lee: 00:11:50

with examples of, of institutional racism within their organization.

Lee: 00:11:54

But they've publicly acknowledged that and said, we need to do better.

Lee: 00:11:58

And that was hugely refreshing to see a big company do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:02

And I feel like, yeah, I spotted that and was

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:05

like, have you seen this?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:06

Because I feel like it was so the opposite example of a cricket Scotland

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:10

soapbox moment, to be honest with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:12

And, you know, I felt like that was them taking some public ownership of

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:16

it and you know, there's more to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:18

They have to act now they can't just say, this is terrible.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:21

I absolutely get that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:22

But I was also quite intrigued by some of the reaction on social media to

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:26

that cuz there was still the naysayers and still the people who were like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:30

That's not good enough, but there was a push back to those as well, which I

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:34

found really heartening of people going, hang on a minute, give them a break,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:38

how many times do you see people calling themselves out for their really terrible

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:42

behavior and saying we must do better?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:45

Not that often.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:46

So I kind of like the backlash to the backlash.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:48

If that makes sense.

Lee: 00:12:50

but that also goes to show that as A big organization or as a

Lee: 00:12:54

leader of a big organization, you are never going to get it right.

Lee: 00:12:58

You're never gonna get everyone on side, no matter how great your activity or

Lee: 00:13:05

announcement or whatever it might be is.

Lee: 00:13:09

That's the beauty of the world isn't it?

Lee: 00:13:10

The diversity of thoughts and the ability to be able in a democratic country to

Lee: 00:13:16

have those conversations where people don't have to agree with each other.

Lee: 00:13:20

And that's great as leader.

Lee: 00:13:22

It can be hard if people don't agree with your ideas or your suggestions

Lee: 00:13:27

or whatever, but yeah, I don't think you should, that should put you off.

Lee: 00:13:30

Or you think that that was a negative thing to do because

Lee: 00:13:32

some people criticize it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:34

And I think that welcome trust example was a really good one of,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:37

of the leadership team there acting of integrity, cuz they probably knew that

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:41

because as we all do the moment you put anything on any form of social media.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:46

Always gonna be somebody who disagrees with you wants to say

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:49

something negative, worst case scenario is gonna troll you for it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:53

Um, you know, that's sadly the world that we live in, but like you say,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:56

people are allowed to disagree.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:57

I'd like them to do that more respectfully.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

But I liked the fact that the welcome trust didn't just go, well, we

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:04

could do that, but we're probably gonna get later backlash for it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:06

So we just won't, I, I feel like they acted with real integrity and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

purpose and a want to make change by, by being that open and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:15

putting it out there themselves.

Lee: 00:14:17

Yeah.

Lee: 00:14:17

Another episode where I afterwards thought, oh, we missed the boat

Lee: 00:14:23

was, was the one around power dressing and the power suit.

Lee: 00:14:26

And we saw Virgin Atlantic issue, their new guidance to staff saying that they

Lee: 00:14:33

could have their tattoos on show and basically embrace their personality in

Lee: 00:14:38

the way that they dress while still having a uniform, but not being so restrictive.

Lee: 00:14:43

And I thought that was such a, a welcome and positive step forward in accepting.

Lee: 00:14:49

Cause we, we all know organizations that say, oh, it's

Lee: 00:14:52

unprofessional to have tattoos or piercings or anything like that.

Lee: 00:14:55

So I thought that was a really positive step forward for an organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:58

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:59

And God, that episode feels like so long ago now is that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:01

episode two ditch the power

Lee: 00:15:03

Yeah,

Lee: 00:15:04

it was.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:04

But I think what a different space to be in as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:07

Cuz it just, as you mentioned, Virgin Atlantic there and them being more

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:11

accepting and being more relaxed about the dress code for their, their staff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:15

Just thinking about like how different that is from the British airways

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:18

example from many years ago now about the person who wanted to wear a cross.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:22

It's just really interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:24

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:24

How much, what people wear and how much that shows of themselves, their

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:27

personalities, their beliefs has an impact on others, but how accepting

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:32

or not people can be of that.

Lee: 00:15:51

Were there any other episodes that you, after the fact went.

Lee: 00:15:58

Damn I should have

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:59

I, I think there were a few different episodes actually, where we

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

sort of touch on where you might be a bit on the back foot as a, as a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:07

or where you might be stereotyped or where people might treat you differently

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:11

because of some of your characteristics.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:13

And I think there was been quite a lot of stuff that's come up around

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:16

sort of sexism recently, which made me think, oh, there's definitely some

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:20

conversations we've had where that would've been a really good example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:23

And I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:23

One, I just saw, I think yesterday or the day before.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:26

And that's terrible.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:27

It slips my mind who it was now, but a female CEO who tweeted that

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:31

she had been invited well, that she had a client meeting that

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:34

she should have been invited to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:36

And actually only her male colleague got invited because the client

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:39

thought she was the PA and actually she was the chief executive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:43

And that was quite interesting cuz I think she was calling out some

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:46

everyday sexism there that is around.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:49

But again, that the kind of comments back, I found interesting people on

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:53

different sides of that debate and I wasn't really clear what she did.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:57

So she tweeted that that happened, but I wasn't clear what action she took and

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:00

whether she felt she could take any.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:02

But I thought that was quite interesting.

Lee: 00:17:03

it reminds me of, and I can't think of the company now it was it i, I want

Lee: 00:17:11

to say it was Axo or something like that.

Lee: 00:17:13

It was one of those big financial or insurance type companies.

Lee: 00:17:17

And they've got a female chief exec and it was at the AGM where

Lee: 00:17:22

they had shareholders standing up making really sexist comments.

Lee: 00:17:26

And it was really good that the male chair of the board called them out

Lee: 00:17:32

and said, we will not tolerate that.

Lee: 00:17:33

And I thought that was such a good example of allyship.

Lee: 00:17:37

Isn't it really?

Lee: 00:17:38

And.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:39

And being a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:40

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:41

And acting with integrity rather than just sitting there and listening to,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:45

to your colleagues saying things that you actually don't find acceptable.

Lee: 00:17:49

It shows that sense of when you are demonstrating allyship, it could

Lee: 00:17:53

be so easy to think when you are in a, say a public meeting setting, or in a

Lee: 00:17:58

large group to feel like, oh because these are important stakeholders.

Lee: 00:18:04

We shouldn't annoy them, or we shouldn't disagree with them or

Lee: 00:18:07

we, we need to keep them on side.

Lee: 00:18:08

So we should just go along with it.

Lee: 00:18:10

And I think you show greater integrity by standing up because actually you'll

Lee: 00:18:16

have won a lot more fans from a broader audience than those shareholders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:20

And, and with that plays into talking about respect and trust

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:24

and that connection, doesn't it that you're building with people and

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

people are gonna have more respect for you, more trust in you that, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:30

you are there to do the right thing and therefore build a better and

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:33

stronger connection with you, for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:35

So again, a lot, I feel, feel like a lot of these topics cross over into

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:38

numerous episodes that we've recorded.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:40

But while we are on the sexism thing, can I just briefly

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:44

mention England women's football.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:46

and you know, I think what a brilliant example of being amazing role models,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:51

encouraging younger generations to aspire to greatness, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:56

filling stadiums more than any other.

Lee: 00:18:59

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:59

Any other sporting team have done.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:01

I think that's really brilliant, but equally there was a bit for me that made

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:06

me a bit uncomfortable where there've been a couple of conversations about how

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:10

well the England women's football manager has done in terms of her leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:15

journey, where she's taken the team and a few comments about you know, need

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:19

some of that in England men's football.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

And just a couple of comments that I've heard around like, oh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:26

a woman will never manage English men's team, not just for football.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:31

I don't think for many sports.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:32

And I just think what's that all about, because actually there are

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:36

many successful women's sporting teams that are managed and led by men and

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:41

that's and we are okay with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:43

And we accept that and we don't necessarily make a comment about it,

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:46

but the idea that a, a hugely elite and successful men's sporting team could

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:52

be led and managed by a woman, seems to cause some sort of offense somehow.

Lee: 00:19:56

It's interesting.

Lee: 00:19:57

I've name checked Rachel Butson before I really enjoy her podcast it's all

Lee: 00:20:02

about rethinking moments or something it's called and This week, I've

Lee: 00:20:06

been listening to her interview with Julia Gillard, I think that's how you

Lee: 00:20:11

pronounce her surname, anyway, the former prime minister of Australia and

Lee: 00:20:15

the talking about rethinking misogyny.

Lee: 00:20:18

And there was something that stuck with me in the conversation, which

Lee: 00:20:22

was around she, she was referring to the fact that she was the first

Lee: 00:20:26

female prime minister of Australia.

Lee: 00:20:29

And the difference of the question, the exam question she had to answer

Lee: 00:20:34

is can a woman lead the country?

Lee: 00:20:36

And then she compares it to say the style of Jaci Arden in New Zealand.

Lee: 00:20:41

And she also referenced, I think it was Iceland as the only two countries

Lee: 00:20:45

that have had three women leaders.

Lee: 00:20:49

And so the question of can a woman lead has been asked and

Lee: 00:20:54

answered in those countries.

Lee: 00:20:55

So

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

irrelevant.

Lee: 00:20:56

it's irrelevant.

Lee: 00:20:57

So the question therefore, that they need to answer is that next

Lee: 00:21:01

level of how do I want to lead?

Lee: 00:21:05

And so they can bring in more of their own style and the empathy and the

Lee: 00:21:10

compassionate leadership, because they don't have to prove that a woman can lead.

Lee: 00:21:15

And I thought that was such an interesting insight.

Lee: 00:21:18

And actually probably goes to the point you are making about the football,

Lee: 00:21:22

because we've never had a woman lead.

Lee: 00:21:24

And so that's the, the exam question everyone's trying to answer.

Lee: 00:21:27

Can a woman do it?

Lee: 00:21:28

And until that happens, no, one's gonna move.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:31

Yeah, that is, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:32

That is a really good sort of reference point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:34

And I think that, yeah, explains that example really

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

well, because you are right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:38

It is that, you know, for some people it's that unknown and that make an assumption.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:43

Well, no, they can't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:43

Cause they never have before, whatever, whatever thing we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:46

talking about, doesn't have to be women leaders, but you're right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:49

It like once, once the proof is there and we've evidenced that actually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:54

You know, people are quite capable of doing that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

It do, you are right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:57

It does change the question, doesn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:59

But I guess it's slightly infuriating that that's the exam question sometimes, cuz

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:03

it's like, oh, what do people need to do?

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:05

Like, and that, that there is that need isn't there sometimes to prove yourself,

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

prove that you can do something, prove that you can be a good leader, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:13

it's striking that balance I guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:15

And what you're trying to prove it for in who.

Lee: 00:22:18

Yeah.

Lee: 00:22:18

And you think about America when it was Clinton and Trump

Lee: 00:22:22

going up against each other.

Lee: 00:22:24

And that was very much the question that she was having to answer.

Lee: 00:22:28

They couldn't see a woman lead, even though there was a huge proportion

Lee: 00:22:32

of people in the country who wanted to see a woman lead, that those,

Lee: 00:22:36

that eventually swayed the vote the other way, just couldn't get

Lee: 00:22:40

their heads around that question.

Lee: 00:22:42

And you could question have we know we've had two female prime ministers

Lee: 00:22:47

in England, but I don't think we've still fully answered that question.

Lee: 00:22:51

When you look at how the media treats female leaders over here,

Lee: 00:22:54

or female political leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:56

I, yeah, I would absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:58

And if you go back to the Thatcher days, like how much of that debate

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:02

and conversation about her style of leadership was focused on and still

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:06

is when people reference her, how much she had to adapt to be more like a man,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:11

I.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:12

So, do you know what I mean?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:13

I think that's, that's quite interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:15

And actually we are in quite a different space now, but I don't know how a

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:18

female politician would, would feel.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

I don't know what pressure Liz Truss for example, in the current climate feels

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

to adapt her leadership style, to meet the needs of potential people who are

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:31

gonna be voting her in versus how she genuinely would like to lead the country.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:34

Who knows.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

That's a question for her.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:36

Isn't it?

Lee: 00:23:36

she's channeling, isn't she very much channeling a Thatcher

Lee: 00:23:40

approach and, you know, down to the clothing choices sometimes.

Lee: 00:23:45

And so that does make you think that that's that archaic.

Lee: 00:23:49

Old fashioned way of leadership is still viewed as the way to lead.

Lee: 00:23:53

And that's a really sorry state.

Lee: 00:23:55

To start to wrap this up, which of the conversations that we've had,

Lee: 00:23:59

and I think we've touched on a couple that really stuck with us already,

Lee: 00:24:02

but which have stuck with you the most, or perhaps changed the way

Lee: 00:24:06

that you've approached something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

The one for me that got me thinking about my own

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:11

approach to things was actually weirdly the one on storytelling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:15

I dunno why I think that's weird, but it maybe surprised me because I think as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:19

communicator, I already know the benefit of storytelling, but I think it just did

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:25

get me to reflect, have there been points in my leadership career where probably,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:31

not necessarily tough times, but times when maybe things in the organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:36

or what was going on for my team, felt a bit stagnant and a bit not going

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:40

one way or the other, where actually I could have really benefited as could my

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:44

team have benefited from more of that storytelling approach in leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:49

So, you know, sometimes when you're in those positions, in a team where you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:51

waiting for something, you are waiting for clarity on what the organization's

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:55

strategic priorities are gonna be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:57

So there's like a few months while that's all being worked up or you

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:01

waiting for a consultation and a restructure to happen in your team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:05

And in that period of waiting, I think you can sometimes leave a bit of a

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:08

silence and that doesn't help people feel motivated and ready for what's to come

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:14

next and come on that journey with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:16

And I just reflected, there've probably been a couple of times where.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:20

Had we had that conversation about storytelling back then that I

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:24

probably would've done something a bit different with keeping people

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:27

with me and wanting to be on that journey rather than like hitting the

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:30

pause button and in the film, and then restarting it a couple of months later.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

And then wondering why people are not as, not as excited by

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:37

it or not as fired up by it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

So that was just an interesting one for me, in terms of what it triggered.

Lee: 00:25:42

Well, I think that's, that actually goes to a bigger point around sometimes

Lee: 00:25:47

when you are leading something, you are, it, it can all consume you and you can

Lee: 00:25:53

get bored by it a lot quicker than other people, because they're only having

Lee: 00:25:57

short sharp interactions with that topic.

Lee: 00:26:00

There might be huge time lags in between when they are involved in

Lee: 00:26:05

that discussion or hear about it.

Lee: 00:26:07

But you, as a leader might feel like, oh, I'm saying the

Lee: 00:26:09

same thing over and over again.

Lee: 00:26:11

And, and the temptation can be that you want to change things up.

Lee: 00:26:16

So it stays fresh and exciting for you, but all you're doing is confusing and

Lee: 00:26:20

diluting the message to your staff.

Lee: 00:26:23

So I think that's a really important point to note, if you are in

Lee: 00:26:27

that state of it feeling a bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:29

Yeah, definitely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:30

So, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:31

How about for you Lee?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:32

What's your thought?

Lee: 00:26:34

I mean, the allyship has really stuck with me and I won't rehash

Lee: 00:26:38

things that we've discussed, but I suppose one of the reflections

Lee: 00:26:42

that I've had is that it actually crossed so many of the discussions.

Lee: 00:26:47

But we didn't get into the meat of it in all the other episodes.

Lee: 00:26:51

Cuz we could have explored each topic through quite a specific lens.

Lee: 00:26:56

Emotional intelligence, for example, could have been discussed as what does

Lee: 00:27:02

it mean to be emotionally intelligent as a woman nowadays as a woman leader,

Lee: 00:27:07

because that sense of a woman being emotional is so very different to a man

Lee: 00:27:12

being emotional and that really fine line and I just thought that was really

Lee: 00:27:16

fascinating that we've, we've picked on all these topics, but actually there's

Lee: 00:27:22

so many subsets to each one that we could have looked through a lens when

Lee: 00:27:25

it comes to what does being an ally look like or, or whatever it might be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:29

Oh, I feel like there's ideas coming for series two and three and four.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:33

And however many series this podcast is gonna run for.

Lee: 00:27:37

The other area that I've reflected a lot on was our conversation

Lee: 00:27:41

around introverts and extroverts.

Lee: 00:27:42

I think because we both learned a bit about each other in that, process

Lee: 00:27:46

and what actually means, and, and I suppose, myth bust some of those

Lee: 00:27:50

stereotypes of the typical extrovert and what they might be thinking behind

Lee: 00:27:56

the scenes and what an introvert might be thinking behind the scenes.

Lee: 00:28:00

And even since we had that session I've still been seeing

Lee: 00:28:04

conversations around confidence.

Lee: 00:28:06

And what does it mean to be confident?

Lee: 00:28:07

And people saying there was something I was watching and I can't feel

Lee: 00:28:11

life for me, think what it was now.

Lee: 00:28:13

And they would kept talking about the person being an introvert.

Lee: 00:28:19

And actually they were describing someone who was being shy and it was very

Lee: 00:28:22

different and it was really bugging me.

Lee: 00:28:24

And it's bugging me now that I can't, it's a really unhelpful example.

Lee: 00:28:27

Cause I can't think of the show.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:29

But I remember you talking about that in the episode that actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:32

like things get labeled incorrectly and that yeah, how being introverted

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:38

can be seen as being unconfident.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:40

And actually you are, you are not unconfident in your skill set, your

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:43

experience, what you bring to the table.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:46

You just work in a different way.

Lee: 00:28:48

Yeah, I remembered the show.

Lee: 00:28:49

It's the rolling stone show that's on BBC

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:52

Ah, interesting.

Lee: 00:28:53

it was the oh my goodness.

Lee: 00:28:56

What's the, what's the guitarist's name?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

are we, are we talking Ronnie wood or are we talking Keith

Lee: 00:29:03

Keith Richards.

Lee: 00:29:04

It was his episode and he kept talking about being an introvert

Lee: 00:29:07

and other people saying, you know, he's an introvert, but what, what

Lee: 00:29:10

he was describing was being shy.

Lee: 00:29:13

And he cuz he wasn't talking about needing the quiet space.

Lee: 00:29:17

He just liked being on his own.

Lee: 00:29:18

He didn't really like talking with people and, and I just thought how, how.

Lee: 00:29:22

Funny that, that, that sense of confidence and all of that was

Lee: 00:29:26

wrapped up and just labeled as he's an introvert and, and actually the

Lee: 00:29:31

attributes that he was describing for me, didn't resonate as an introvert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:35

Yeah, very interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:37

And interestingly, one of the episodes that we've had feedback on from listeners

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:41

that it's really helped them to think differently or and particularly people

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:45

who've then come out and said, I'm an introvert and actually I found that

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:48

really interesting and really helpful.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:50

I was pleased by how much interaction we had when that episode had gone

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:53

out from people, finding it really insightful and a opportunity to think

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:57

differently about their own traits and their own kind of type, whether

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:01

they're introverted or extroverted

Lee: 00:30:03

I think we've rubbed off on each other as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:06

hundred percent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:08

Oh the other week you said to me, it's something I'd have

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:11

never done that before I met you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:12

I, I feel like your extrovertism is rubbing off of me now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:16

And then, and then the other day we was like, yeah, I feel like I'm becoming

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:19

more introverted and more Lee about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:21

I really . So I feel like we have rubbed off on each other,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:25

so we can't do it too much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:27

Cuz if we come in the middle, we'll lose that ying and yang of what we bring . But

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:31

I, I have enjoyed actually seeing how some of the episodes have landed with listeners

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:35

as well and getting their feedback about what they wanna see or hear in future

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:39

episodes, but, you know, ditch the power suit interestingly came up a few times.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:44

I'd seen on LinkedIn people, you know, making comments and sharing it and

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:48

reflecting on what that's meant for them to listen to that conversation and their

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:53

own experiences, which has been brilliant.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:55

And of course the the allyship one as well seemed to go down well with

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:59

people in terms of them wanting to listen to it and sparking some

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:03

thought and conversation for them.

Lee: 00:31:05

So that is a wrap for series one.

Lee: 00:31:08

We will be back with series two in October.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:13

I know, and that's gonna come around quickly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:15

But fear not if you can't wait until October to get your fill of how to take

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:19

the lead in exciting breaking news we are gonna have our own social channels.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:24

So, we ummed and ahhd and thought about it and we got through series one obviously

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:29

utilizing our own channels didn't we Lee., and we thought, actually, no, we

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:32

are, we are landing now in a space where insta and Twitter are gonna be the place

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:37

where we need to start sharing more in enabling some of this conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:40

So in conjunction with this after party episode going out, you will

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:44

also be able to find how to take the lead on Instagram and Twitter.

Lee: 00:31:49

So please give us a follow in our little summer, late summer recess period,

Lee: 00:31:55

as we prep for series two, we will be launching content on both those channels.

Lee: 00:32:02

We'll have some of our best bits.

Lee: 00:32:03

We'll maybe have some prompts things for you to consider based on some

Lee: 00:32:06

of the discussions of series one.

Lee: 00:32:08

So we'd love for you to spread the word tag us and all that kind of social shit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:14

yeah, please engage with us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:16

I think is what, what Lee was trying to say.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:18

Not quite so politely.

Lee: 00:32:21

So, yes, we will put all our details in the notes section on

Lee: 00:32:26

the podcast for you to follow.

Lee: 00:32:28

If you are following either of us on any of the social channels, you'll see us

Lee: 00:32:33

talking about it as well, but at how to take the lead on Instagram, at how to take

Lee: 00:32:39

the lead but with a number two on Twitter, are the places to start following?

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:46

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:46

We will be spamming you

Lee: 00:32:48

No, not spamming.

Lee: 00:32:49

We are not annoying.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:51

It's not spam and it's not social shit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:54

It's all good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:55

We'll be bringing you all the best content from how to take

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:58

the lead across those channels.

Lee: 00:33:00

That sounds more professional.

Lee: 00:33:01

Okay.

Lee: 00:33:02

On that note, we will see you again in October.