bonus

bonus
Published on:

1st Sep 2022

The reunion

In this bonus episode of How To Take The Lead it’s our end of series after party ... or reunion show, if you watch too much Below Deck like Lee!

In this episode we reflect on and discuss the things we wished we'd covered in the first series, bits we missed, what we've learnt and everything in between, including:

·       10:22 – that Jack Duckworth moment

·       11:29 – how The Wellcome Trust handled racism

·       14:27  – Virgin Atlantic ditch the power suit

·       16:32 – everyday sexism

·       20:08  – when can we stop asking if a woman can lead the country?

·       24:40 – storytelling when you maybe don’t feel like it

·       26:45 – there’s so much more to explore

There’s no top takeaways from us but we are excited to announce we have launched our How To Take the Lead social media channels. You will be able to find all the good stuff on Insta and Twitter:

Instagram @howtotakethelead

Twitter @how2takethelead

So why not give us a follow to see what we're up to on our summer hiatus and share your thoughts on what we've covered in series one.

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting, using #HowToTakeTheLead

Series two of How To Take The Lead lands in October 2022!

----------------------

You can find out more about Lee Griffith via www.sundayskies.com and about Carrie-Ann Wade at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Transcript
Lee:

Hello, we're back again.

Lee:

I know we said goodbye at the end of the last episode, which was the

Lee:

official end of series one, but we did want to do a wrap up for the series.

Lee:

I dunno about you Carrie Ann, but I really hate those shows where

Lee:

basically they just rehash all the content that you've either watched or

Lee:

listened to over the past few weeks.

Lee:

And then they make a best of.

Lee:

I want new content I want behind the scenes.

Lee:

I want the tea.

Lee:

Is that how you, is that how these young people say it?

Lee:

I want the tea.

Carrie-Ann:

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann:

I've never heard that.

Carrie-Ann:

Cause clearly I'm not young enough to know

Lee:

You've probably heard me talk about below deck before, if I, I love

Lee:

an after I love an after party where it's like, did that really happen?

Lee:

Did so and so sleep with so, and so, I mean, we, we, obviously, none of that goes

Lee:

on behind the scenes of how to take the

Carrie-Ann:

What sort?

Carrie-Ann:

Yes.

Carrie-Ann:

What sort of podcast series do you think this is lee?

Lee:

But I want more than just the best bit.

Lee:

So that's what, that's what we are giving you today.

Lee:

We wanted to have a bit of reflection, maybe on some of the discussions

Lee:

that we've had this series.

Lee:

I know I've certainly had moments where, you know, we've been messaging

Lee:

each other going, this would've been great to discuss in the episode.

Lee:

Oh, oh shit.

Lee:

How did we miss that great big thing over there.

Carrie-Ann:

And isn't it always the way that we've recorded an episode and

Carrie-Ann:

literally the next day something happens.

Carrie-Ann:

We're like, why did that not happen yesterday?

Carrie-Ann:

Because that would've been brilliant for the episode.

Carrie-Ann:

So there has been a constant back and forth on the WhatsApp

Lee:

We want to put it right in this episode, that being said, it's highly

Lee:

probable, that all the things that I've thought of over the series,

Lee:

I promptly will forget as we have this conversation and I'll still

Lee:

be on the WhatsApp a bit later.

Carrie-Ann:

That's absolutely fine.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't mind.

Carrie-Ann:

And I have to say one of my first reflections is I'm not sure the soapbox

Carrie-Ann:

came out as much as I was anticipating it would cuz we had that chat before we

Carrie-Ann:

started didn't we, that there's probably gonna be and there definitely have been

Carrie-Ann:

soapbox moments, but I don't feel like I've had to dust it off as many times as

Carrie-Ann:

I thought for you to step up on to Lee.

Lee:

I, I think I've perhaps been, you know, a little bit more mature

Lee:

in my outlook in this series.

Carrie-Ann:

The more mellow

Lee:

not so hotheaded as obviously the Insta brigade brings out on me.

Carrie-Ann:

I love it.

Lee:

So to kick things off with my coaching hat on, what have you

Lee:

learned about yourself, Carrie Ann, through this last series?

Carrie-Ann:

What have I learned about myself?

Carrie-Ann:

Well, do you know what this sounds like a really cliche thing to

Carrie-Ann:

say, but, but my learning is that there's always more to learn.

Carrie-Ann:

So, no matter how much experience you have, there,

Carrie-Ann:

there is always more to learn.

Carrie-Ann:

There's always a different perspective to the one that you've got.

Carrie-Ann:

There's always areas that you can develop in.

Carrie-Ann:

And I've also figured out that it is actually okay not to know it all and

Carrie-Ann:

not to have all the answers and actually part of what helps your development.

Carrie-Ann:

I think as a leader and as a human being is just to be more curious and to explore

Carrie-Ann:

a bit more, the things you don't know about get a different point of view on

Carrie-Ann:

the things you think you do know about.

Carrie-Ann:

So for me it's been nice to think I don't have to know it all and that's okay.

Carrie-Ann:

And actually I'm gonna learn more things along the way.

Carrie-Ann:

And I guess one of the other things that's been quite an eye

Carrie-Ann:

opener for me and it's made me.

Carrie-Ann:

I, I knew this anyway, but I think it's made me think it even more

Carrie-Ann:

just the power of our words and our actions on other people and that

Carrie-Ann:

we should never underestimate that.

Carrie-Ann:

And hopefully through this series of take the lead, we've had some

Carrie-Ann:

positive impact from, for people getting them to think in a different

Carrie-Ann:

way, consider their leadership style.

Carrie-Ann:

But I think also some of the conversations that we've had around different

Carrie-Ann:

topics, we've shared examples where.

Carrie-Ann:

It's really made you realize on the flip side of that, the negative

Carrie-Ann:

impact that, that people's words and actions as leaders can have on others.

Carrie-Ann:

So that's something that I think was on my mind when, when you asked that.

Lee:

mm-hmm I, I felt that it's been so easy to find things to talk about.

Lee:

And that was always a worry.

Lee:

When we first started how to take the lead over on Insta all that time

Lee:

ago, we questioned would we have enough stuff to talk about and we've

Lee:

revisited themes and we've, we've looked at themes from different

Lee:

angles and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee:

But I don't know, it just feels like there's a real movement at the moment of

Lee:

the types of things that we need to be talking about in the leadership world.

Lee:

And people are starting to be more open to having those types of conversations.

Lee:

And I don't think necessarily the things we've talked about are a groundbreaking

Lee:

we've certainly, you know, there's been a few occasions where we've gone oh,

Lee:

so, and so's been talking about that, or I've seen this TikTok on that topic or,

Lee:

or whatever, and, and we're like, We've just been the same as everyone else, but

Lee:

then my reflection has been well, no, there's obviously a real need for people

Lee:

to be having more of those conversations.

Lee:

And we all bring our own unique experiences and views

Lee:

on each of these topics.

Lee:

And I think we could redo this whole series again, and we would come out

Lee:

with different things on the topics as well, because they're so of the

Lee:

moment and they are so different to perhaps what the leadership lens

Lee:

looked like maybe a decade or so ago.

Carrie-Ann:

And it's funny, isn't it, like, there have been a few times where

Carrie-Ann:

we've seen content elsewhere where we're like, oh, we've literally just recorded

Carrie-Ann:

an episode of the podcast about that.

Carrie-Ann:

And there's that, that moment where you feel slightly disappointed as in

Carrie-Ann:

like, oh, someone else is talking about it, but actually that's brilliant.

Carrie-Ann:

Good people are talking about it, cuz it means it is important stuff in that

Carrie-Ann:

leadership space it's conversations that we need to be having and that

Carrie-Ann:

we should be encouraging others to have and being more open about.

Carrie-Ann:

So yeah, like you, I've tried to flip that onto a more positive note going.

Carrie-Ann:

That means we're on the right track with what we're talking about.

Carrie-Ann:

And we're talking about things that are important to people.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Is there anything that you've, I suppose learned more about through the course

Lee:

of our discussions or perhaps changed your mind since we've discussed it?

Carrie-Ann:

I mean the standout one for me, which is gonna be

Carrie-Ann:

really obvious when I say it.

Carrie-Ann:

And we talked about this I think in, in the episode was around the ally ship.

Carrie-Ann:

I say it right either.

Carrie-Ann:

Now I've caught off you.

Carrie-Ann:

allyship conversation definitely as I.

Carrie-Ann:

I realize that sometimes I have not taken action on things because I've been

Carrie-Ann:

fearful that I don't know enough about them and the learning for me through

Carrie-Ann:

not only the conversation we had as part of the how to take the lead series, but

Carrie-Ann:

conversations we had around that episode.

Carrie-Ann:

You know, and I'll mention it because it was definitely one of your big soap box

Carrie-Ann:

moments around cricket Scotland, but That conversation that we had around that.

Carrie-Ann:

And then the subsequent episode made me realize that actually, if I am in a space

Carrie-Ann:

or you are as a leader in a space where you feel slightly fearful, that it's

Carrie-Ann:

like, I'm not gonna make a comment on this because I don't know enough about it.

Carrie-Ann:

Actually pause for a moment and reflect because the fact that you don't know

Carrie-Ann:

enough about it is the exact reason why you should be taking action.

Carrie-Ann:

That's definitely something that I've learned for me that actually.

Carrie-Ann:

That, that was the point that I should have gone.

Carrie-Ann:

I need to understand more about this and take action.

Carrie-Ann:

It's not the time for me to do nothing.

Carrie-Ann:

So that for me was one of my bigger standout moments, I think

Carrie-Ann:

in terms of, of my own thinking.

Carrie-Ann:

And what's changed for me.

Lee:

I had a couple of people message me similarly after that episode came

Lee:

out and they were saying that they've definitely, either need to pay more

Lee:

attention or not to be scared to, to talk about stuff because they

Lee:

don't know enough about the topic.

Lee:

And obviously on that episode, we were talking specifically about cricket.

Lee:

I have to say I'm still on my soapbox about it though.

Lee:

And I've, I, I I've am almost becoming like the angry, old

Lee:

person that writes to the letters

Carrie-Ann:

What did you message me the other day about Nicola sturgeon?

Carrie-Ann:

You're like, she didn't wanna say something about cricket Scotland being

Carrie-Ann:

institutionally racist, but she's gonna tweet about, was it CA I can't remember.

Carrie-Ann:

Was it.

Lee:

Kermit the frog.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, come it, the frog.

Carrie-Ann:

It was something really so benign.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

So I might actually just have to mute her account because it's really irritating me.

Lee:

She tweeted about some journalist that I don't, I don't know

Lee:

what the story is behind it.

Lee:

I dunno who the journalist is, but she did A tweet condemning some people

Lee:

that were offensive to this journalist and saying this, you know, this isn't

Lee:

on treatment of people this way.

Lee:

And I thought, I, I nearly did the angry response tweet, but I

Lee:

I'm very conscious that, you know, that will come across in, in a way.

Lee:

And, I can't get over whether I'm just feeling really bitter about it all now.

Lee:

And so it's just grinding my gears or whether actually I should

Lee:

continue to keep challenging it because otherwise I'm accepting it.

Lee:

And I don't know where I'm sitting in the situation.

Lee:

I'm really conflicted.

Carrie-Ann:

But, you know, what I love is that we can have this conversation

Carrie-Ann:

about being conflicted about things.

Carrie-Ann:

And that's part of, I dunno, part of why I feel so passionate about this

Carrie-Ann:

podcast series and what came before it, as well as you say it was instant

Carrie-Ann:

lives before, just about that ability to have those unfiltered conversations

Carrie-Ann:

about things and that's okay.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think too many people keep stuff like that bottled up and then.

Carrie-Ann:

It's you know, does it create an inertia or like you say, an a sort of passive

Carrie-Ann:

acceptance of something because actually really what's happening is you're

Carrie-Ann:

conflicted inside and you don't know where to have the conversation to try and get to

Carrie-Ann:

a space that you feel more comfortable in.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

As a brief aside the, the lovely listeners can't see this, but I can see

Lee:

Carrie Ann's lovely face on the screen.

Lee:

As I'm talking she's she's adjusted her glasses and one is

Lee:

much, much higher than the other.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, sorry.

Carrie-Ann:

I've just caught sight of myself and it is so offput in it's because I've, I've

Carrie-Ann:

realized I need to do something with this.

Carrie-Ann:

So boring for the listeners.

Carrie-Ann:

I need to do something with this screw on this arm of my glasses, because it's

Carrie-Ann:

too tight and it, it digs in behind my ear and it's worse when I've got

Carrie-Ann:

the headphones on, but if I take them off, you just become a pixelated blur.

Carrie-Ann:

So I can't work out, which is worse, worse for you to see me with my, I might

Carrie-Ann:

as well just have a big plaster around the corner of them like Jack duckworth.

Lee:

You've totally given me Jack Duckworth vibes.

Lee:

That exactly who I was about to call

Carrie-Ann:

And this will be interesting for our listeners to

Carrie-Ann:

know how relevant that reference is to some people and not to others.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Message us and let us know if you got the reference or not, cuz it just help us

Lee:

with our demographic and equality data.

Carrie-Ann:

right.

Carrie-Ann:

I've readjusted them.

Carrie-Ann:

Is that better?

Carrie-Ann:

Is it less off putting for

Carrie-Ann:

you?

Lee:

Thank you.

Lee:

Thank you.

Lee:

On the allyship front, I think the other thing that, that cropped

Lee:

out at me, actually you flagged it to me was the welcome trust.

Lee:

And that was a big moment in the last couple of weeks, since we did that

Lee:

episode and it was really refreshing to see a open and honest acceptance

Lee:

that they have not done well enough that they've continued to review their

Lee:

practice since their first review.

Lee:

That it's a really hard read if you read the full report again,

Lee:

with examples of, of institutional racism within their organization.

Lee:

But they've publicly acknowledged that and said, we need to do better.

Lee:

And that was hugely refreshing to see a big company do.

Carrie-Ann:

And I feel like, yeah, I spotted that and was

Carrie-Ann:

like, have you seen this?

Carrie-Ann:

Because I feel like it was so the opposite example of a cricket Scotland

Carrie-Ann:

soapbox moment, to be honest with you.

Carrie-Ann:

And, you know, I felt like that was them taking some public ownership of

Carrie-Ann:

it and you know, there's more to do.

Carrie-Ann:

They have to act now they can't just say, this is terrible.

Carrie-Ann:

I absolutely get that.

Carrie-Ann:

But I was also quite intrigued by some of the reaction on social media to

Carrie-Ann:

that cuz there was still the naysayers and still the people who were like.

Carrie-Ann:

That's not good enough, but there was a push back to those as well, which I

Carrie-Ann:

found really heartening of people going, hang on a minute, give them a break,

Carrie-Ann:

how many times do you see people calling themselves out for their really terrible

Carrie-Ann:

behavior and saying we must do better?

Carrie-Ann:

Not that often.

Carrie-Ann:

So I kind of like the backlash to the backlash.

Carrie-Ann:

If that makes sense.

Lee:

but that also goes to show that as A big organization or as a

Lee:

leader of a big organization, you are never going to get it right.

Lee:

You're never gonna get everyone on side, no matter how great your activity or

Lee:

announcement or whatever it might be is.

Lee:

That's the beauty of the world isn't it?

Lee:

The diversity of thoughts and the ability to be able in a democratic country to

Lee:

have those conversations where people don't have to agree with each other.

Lee:

And that's great as leader.

Lee:

It can be hard if people don't agree with your ideas or your suggestions

Lee:

or whatever, but yeah, I don't think you should, that should put you off.

Lee:

Or you think that that was a negative thing to do because

Lee:

some people criticize it.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think that welcome trust example was a really good one of,

Carrie-Ann:

of the leadership team there acting of integrity, cuz they probably knew that

Carrie-Ann:

because as we all do the moment you put anything on any form of social media.

Carrie-Ann:

Always gonna be somebody who disagrees with you wants to say

Carrie-Ann:

something negative, worst case scenario is gonna troll you for it.

Carrie-Ann:

Um, you know, that's sadly the world that we live in, but like you say,

Carrie-Ann:

people are allowed to disagree.

Carrie-Ann:

I'd like them to do that more respectfully.

Carrie-Ann:

But I liked the fact that the welcome trust didn't just go, well, we

Carrie-Ann:

could do that, but we're probably gonna get later backlash for it.

Carrie-Ann:

So we just won't, I, I feel like they acted with real integrity and, and

Carrie-Ann:

purpose and a want to make change by, by being that open and, and

Carrie-Ann:

putting it out there themselves.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Another episode where I afterwards thought, oh, we missed the boat

Lee:

was, was the one around power dressing and the power suit.

Lee:

And we saw Virgin Atlantic issue, their new guidance to staff saying that they

Lee:

could have their tattoos on show and basically embrace their personality in

Lee:

the way that they dress while still having a uniform, but not being so restrictive.

Lee:

And I thought that was such a, a welcome and positive step forward in accepting.

Lee:

Cause we, we all know organizations that say, oh, it's

Lee:

unprofessional to have tattoos or piercings or anything like that.

Lee:

So I thought that was a really positive step forward for an organization.

Carrie-Ann:

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann:

And God, that episode feels like so long ago now is that

Carrie-Ann:

episode two ditch the power

Lee:

Yeah,

Lee:

it was.

Carrie-Ann:

But I think what a different space to be in as well.

Carrie-Ann:

Cuz it just, as you mentioned, Virgin Atlantic there and them being more

Carrie-Ann:

accepting and being more relaxed about the dress code for their, their staff.

Carrie-Ann:

Just thinking about like how different that is from the British airways

Carrie-Ann:

example from many years ago now about the person who wanted to wear a cross.

Carrie-Ann:

It's just really interesting.

Carrie-Ann:

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

How much, what people wear and how much that shows of themselves, their

Carrie-Ann:

personalities, their beliefs has an impact on others, but how accepting

Carrie-Ann:

or not people can be of that.

Lee:

Were there any other episodes that you, after the fact went.

Lee:

Damn I should have

Carrie-Ann:

I, I think there were a few different episodes actually, where we

Carrie-Ann:

sort of touch on where you might be a bit on the back foot as a, as a leader

Carrie-Ann:

or where you might be stereotyped or where people might treat you differently

Carrie-Ann:

because of some of your characteristics.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think there was been quite a lot of stuff that's come up around

Carrie-Ann:

sort of sexism recently, which made me think, oh, there's definitely some

Carrie-Ann:

conversations we've had where that would've been a really good example.

Carrie-Ann:

And I guess.

Carrie-Ann:

One, I just saw, I think yesterday or the day before.

Carrie-Ann:

And that's terrible.

Carrie-Ann:

It slips my mind who it was now, but a female CEO who tweeted that

Carrie-Ann:

she had been invited well, that she had a client meeting that

Carrie-Ann:

she should have been invited to.

Carrie-Ann:

And actually only her male colleague got invited because the client

Carrie-Ann:

thought she was the PA and actually she was the chief executive.

Carrie-Ann:

And that was quite interesting cuz I think she was calling out some

Carrie-Ann:

everyday sexism there that is around.

Carrie-Ann:

But again, that the kind of comments back, I found interesting people on

Carrie-Ann:

different sides of that debate and I wasn't really clear what she did.

Carrie-Ann:

So she tweeted that that happened, but I wasn't clear what action she took and

Carrie-Ann:

whether she felt she could take any.

Carrie-Ann:

But I thought that was quite interesting.

Lee:

it reminds me of, and I can't think of the company now it was it i, I want

Lee:

to say it was Axo or something like that.

Lee:

It was one of those big financial or insurance type companies.

Lee:

And they've got a female chief exec and it was at the AGM where

Lee:

they had shareholders standing up making really sexist comments.

Lee:

And it was really good that the male chair of the board called them out

Lee:

and said, we will not tolerate that.

Lee:

And I thought that was such a good example of allyship.

Lee:

Isn't it really?

Lee:

And.

Carrie-Ann:

And being a good leader.

Carrie-Ann:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann:

And acting with integrity rather than just sitting there and listening to,

Carrie-Ann:

to your colleagues saying things that you actually don't find acceptable.

Lee:

It shows that sense of when you are demonstrating allyship, it could

Lee:

be so easy to think when you are in a, say a public meeting setting, or in a

Lee:

large group to feel like, oh because these are important stakeholders.

Lee:

We shouldn't annoy them, or we shouldn't disagree with them or

Lee:

we, we need to keep them on side.

Lee:

So we should just go along with it.

Lee:

And I think you show greater integrity by standing up because actually you'll

Lee:

have won a lot more fans from a broader audience than those shareholders.

Carrie-Ann:

And, and with that plays into talking about respect and trust

Carrie-Ann:

and that connection, doesn't it that you're building with people and

Carrie-Ann:

people are gonna have more respect for you, more trust in you that, that

Carrie-Ann:

you are there to do the right thing and therefore build a better and

Carrie-Ann:

stronger connection with you, for sure.

Carrie-Ann:

So again, a lot, I feel, feel like a lot of these topics cross over into

Carrie-Ann:

numerous episodes that we've recorded.

Carrie-Ann:

But while we are on the sexism thing, can I just briefly

Carrie-Ann:

mention England women's football.

Carrie-Ann:

and you know, I think what a brilliant example of being amazing role models,

Carrie-Ann:

encouraging younger generations to aspire to greatness, you know,

Carrie-Ann:

filling stadiums more than any other.

Lee:

Mm.

Carrie-Ann:

Any other sporting team have done.

Carrie-Ann:

I think that's really brilliant, but equally there was a bit for me that made

Carrie-Ann:

me a bit uncomfortable where there've been a couple of conversations about how

Carrie-Ann:

well the England women's football manager has done in terms of her leadership

Carrie-Ann:

journey, where she's taken the team and a few comments about you know, need

Carrie-Ann:

some of that in England men's football.

Carrie-Ann:

And just a couple of comments that I've heard around like, oh,

Carrie-Ann:

a woman will never manage English men's team, not just for football.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't think for many sports.

Carrie-Ann:

And I just think what's that all about, because actually there are

Carrie-Ann:

many successful women's sporting teams that are managed and led by men and

Carrie-Ann:

that's and we are okay with that.

Carrie-Ann:

And we accept that and we don't necessarily make a comment about it,

Carrie-Ann:

but the idea that a, a hugely elite and successful men's sporting team could

Carrie-Ann:

be led and managed by a woman, seems to cause some sort of offense somehow.

Lee:

It's interesting.

Lee:

I've name checked Rachel Butson before I really enjoy her podcast it's all

Lee:

about rethinking moments or something it's called and This week, I've

Lee:

been listening to her interview with Julia Gillard, I think that's how you

Lee:

pronounce her surname, anyway, the former prime minister of Australia and

Lee:

the talking about rethinking misogyny.

Lee:

And there was something that stuck with me in the conversation, which

Lee:

was around she, she was referring to the fact that she was the first

Lee:

female prime minister of Australia.

Lee:

And the difference of the question, the exam question she had to answer

Lee:

is can a woman lead the country?

Lee:

And then she compares it to say the style of Jaci Arden in New Zealand.

Lee:

And she also referenced, I think it was Iceland as the only two countries

Lee:

that have had three women leaders.

Lee:

And so the question of can a woman lead has been asked and

Lee:

answered in those countries.

Lee:

So

Carrie-Ann:

irrelevant.

Lee:

it's irrelevant.

Lee:

So the question therefore, that they need to answer is that next

Lee:

level of how do I want to lead?

Lee:

And so they can bring in more of their own style and the empathy and the

Lee:

compassionate leadership, because they don't have to prove that a woman can lead.

Lee:

And I thought that was such an interesting insight.

Lee:

And actually probably goes to the point you are making about the football,

Lee:

because we've never had a woman lead.

Lee:

And so that's the, the exam question everyone's trying to answer.

Lee:

Can a woman do it?

Lee:

And until that happens, no, one's gonna move.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, that is, yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

That is a really good sort of reference point.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think that, yeah, explains that example really

Carrie-Ann:

well, because you are right.

Carrie-Ann:

It is that, you know, for some people it's that unknown and that make an assumption.

Carrie-Ann:

Well, no, they can't.

Carrie-Ann:

Cause they never have before, whatever, whatever thing we're

Carrie-Ann:

talking about, doesn't have to be women leaders, but you're right.

Carrie-Ann:

It like once, once the proof is there and we've evidenced that actually.

Carrie-Ann:

You know, people are quite capable of doing that.

Carrie-Ann:

It do, you are right.

Carrie-Ann:

It does change the question, doesn't it.

Carrie-Ann:

But I guess it's slightly infuriating that that's the exam question sometimes, cuz

Carrie-Ann:

it's like, oh, what do people need to do?

Carrie-Ann:

Like, and that, that there is that need isn't there sometimes to prove yourself,

Carrie-Ann:

prove that you can do something, prove that you can be a good leader, but

Carrie-Ann:

it's striking that balance I guess.

Carrie-Ann:

And what you're trying to prove it for in who.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

And you think about America when it was Clinton and Trump

Lee:

going up against each other.

Lee:

And that was very much the question that she was having to answer.

Lee:

They couldn't see a woman lead, even though there was a huge proportion

Lee:

of people in the country who wanted to see a woman lead, that those,

Lee:

that eventually swayed the vote the other way, just couldn't get

Lee:

their heads around that question.

Lee:

And you could question have we know we've had two female prime ministers

Lee:

in England, but I don't think we've still fully answered that question.

Lee:

When you look at how the media treats female leaders over here,

Lee:

or female political leaders.

Carrie-Ann:

I, yeah, I would absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann:

And if you go back to the Thatcher days, like how much of that debate

Carrie-Ann:

and conversation about her style of leadership was focused on and still

Carrie-Ann:

is when people reference her, how much she had to adapt to be more like a man,

Carrie-Ann:

I.

Carrie-Ann:

So, do you know what I mean?

Carrie-Ann:

I think that's, that's quite interesting.

Carrie-Ann:

And actually we are in quite a different space now, but I don't know how a

Carrie-Ann:

female politician would, would feel.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't know what pressure Liz Truss for example, in the current climate feels

Carrie-Ann:

to adapt her leadership style, to meet the needs of potential people who are

Carrie-Ann:

gonna be voting her in versus how she genuinely would like to lead the country.

Carrie-Ann:

Who knows.

Carrie-Ann:

That's a question for her.

Carrie-Ann:

Isn't it?

Lee:

she's channeling, isn't she very much channeling a Thatcher

Lee:

approach and, you know, down to the clothing choices sometimes.

Lee:

And so that does make you think that that's that archaic.

Lee:

Old fashioned way of leadership is still viewed as the way to lead.

Lee:

And that's a really sorry state.

Lee:

To start to wrap this up, which of the conversations that we've had,

Lee:

and I think we've touched on a couple that really stuck with us already,

Lee:

but which have stuck with you the most, or perhaps changed the way

Lee:

that you've approached something.

Carrie-Ann:

The one for me that got me thinking about my own

Carrie-Ann:

approach to things was actually weirdly the one on storytelling.

Carrie-Ann:

I dunno why I think that's weird, but it maybe surprised me because I think as a

Carrie-Ann:

communicator, I already know the benefit of storytelling, but I think it just did

Carrie-Ann:

get me to reflect, have there been points in my leadership career where probably,

Carrie-Ann:

not necessarily tough times, but times when maybe things in the organization

Carrie-Ann:

or what was going on for my team, felt a bit stagnant and a bit not going

Carrie-Ann:

one way or the other, where actually I could have really benefited as could my

Carrie-Ann:

team have benefited from more of that storytelling approach in leadership.

Carrie-Ann:

So, you know, sometimes when you're in those positions, in a team where you are

Carrie-Ann:

waiting for something, you are waiting for clarity on what the organization's

Carrie-Ann:

strategic priorities are gonna be.

Carrie-Ann:

So there's like a few months while that's all being worked up or you

Carrie-Ann:

waiting for a consultation and a restructure to happen in your team.

Carrie-Ann:

And in that period of waiting, I think you can sometimes leave a bit of a

Carrie-Ann:

silence and that doesn't help people feel motivated and ready for what's to come

Carrie-Ann:

next and come on that journey with you.

Carrie-Ann:

And I just reflected, there've probably been a couple of times where.

Carrie-Ann:

Had we had that conversation about storytelling back then that I

Carrie-Ann:

probably would've done something a bit different with keeping people

Carrie-Ann:

with me and wanting to be on that journey rather than like hitting the

Carrie-Ann:

pause button and in the film, and then restarting it a couple of months later.

Carrie-Ann:

And then wondering why people are not as, not as excited by

Carrie-Ann:

it or not as fired up by it.

Carrie-Ann:

So that was just an interesting one for me, in terms of what it triggered.

Lee:

Well, I think that's, that actually goes to a bigger point around sometimes

Lee:

when you are leading something, you are, it, it can all consume you and you can

Lee:

get bored by it a lot quicker than other people, because they're only having

Lee:

short sharp interactions with that topic.

Lee:

There might be huge time lags in between when they are involved in

Lee:

that discussion or hear about it.

Lee:

But you, as a leader might feel like, oh, I'm saying the

Lee:

same thing over and over again.

Lee:

And, and the temptation can be that you want to change things up.

Lee:

So it stays fresh and exciting for you, but all you're doing is confusing and

Lee:

diluting the message to your staff.

Lee:

So I think that's a really important point to note, if you are in

Lee:

that state of it feeling a bit.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, definitely.

Carrie-Ann:

So, yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

How about for you Lee?

Carrie-Ann:

What's your thought?

Lee:

I mean, the allyship has really stuck with me and I won't rehash

Lee:

things that we've discussed, but I suppose one of the reflections

Lee:

that I've had is that it actually crossed so many of the discussions.

Lee:

But we didn't get into the meat of it in all the other episodes.

Lee:

Cuz we could have explored each topic through quite a specific lens.

Lee:

Emotional intelligence, for example, could have been discussed as what does

Lee:

it mean to be emotionally intelligent as a woman nowadays as a woman leader,

Lee:

because that sense of a woman being emotional is so very different to a man

Lee:

being emotional and that really fine line and I just thought that was really

Lee:

fascinating that we've, we've picked on all these topics, but actually there's

Lee:

so many subsets to each one that we could have looked through a lens when

Lee:

it comes to what does being an ally look like or, or whatever it might be.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, I feel like there's ideas coming for series two and three and four.

Carrie-Ann:

And however many series this podcast is gonna run for.

Lee:

The other area that I've reflected a lot on was our conversation

Lee:

around introverts and extroverts.

Lee:

I think because we both learned a bit about each other in that, process

Lee:

and what actually means, and, and I suppose, myth bust some of those

Lee:

stereotypes of the typical extrovert and what they might be thinking behind

Lee:

the scenes and what an introvert might be thinking behind the scenes.

Lee:

And even since we had that session I've still been seeing

Lee:

conversations around confidence.

Lee:

And what does it mean to be confident?

Lee:

And people saying there was something I was watching and I can't feel

Lee:

life for me, think what it was now.

Lee:

And they would kept talking about the person being an introvert.

Lee:

And actually they were describing someone who was being shy and it was very

Lee:

different and it was really bugging me.

Lee:

And it's bugging me now that I can't, it's a really unhelpful example.

Lee:

Cause I can't think of the show.

Carrie-Ann:

But I remember you talking about that in the episode that actually

Carrie-Ann:

like things get labeled incorrectly and that yeah, how being introverted

Carrie-Ann:

can be seen as being unconfident.

Carrie-Ann:

And actually you are, you are not unconfident in your skill set, your

Carrie-Ann:

experience, what you bring to the table.

Carrie-Ann:

You just work in a different way.

Lee:

Yeah, I remembered the show.

Lee:

It's the rolling stone show that's on BBC

Carrie-Ann:

Ah, interesting.

Lee:

it was the oh my goodness.

Lee:

What's the, what's the guitarist's name?

Carrie-Ann:

are we, are we talking Ronnie wood or are we talking Keith

Lee:

Keith Richards.

Lee:

It was his episode and he kept talking about being an introvert

Lee:

and other people saying, you know, he's an introvert, but what, what

Lee:

he was describing was being shy.

Lee:

And he cuz he wasn't talking about needing the quiet space.

Lee:

He just liked being on his own.

Lee:

He didn't really like talking with people and, and I just thought how, how.

Lee:

Funny that, that, that sense of confidence and all of that was

Lee:

wrapped up and just labeled as he's an introvert and, and actually the

Lee:

attributes that he was describing for me, didn't resonate as an introvert.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, very interesting.

Carrie-Ann:

And interestingly, one of the episodes that we've had feedback on from listeners

Carrie-Ann:

that it's really helped them to think differently or and particularly people

Carrie-Ann:

who've then come out and said, I'm an introvert and actually I found that

Carrie-Ann:

really interesting and really helpful.

Carrie-Ann:

I was pleased by how much interaction we had when that episode had gone

Carrie-Ann:

out from people, finding it really insightful and a opportunity to think

Carrie-Ann:

differently about their own traits and their own kind of type, whether

Carrie-Ann:

they're introverted or extroverted

Lee:

I think we've rubbed off on each other as well.

Carrie-Ann:

hundred percent.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh the other week you said to me, it's something I'd have

Carrie-Ann:

never done that before I met you.

Carrie-Ann:

I, I feel like your extrovertism is rubbing off of me now.

Carrie-Ann:

And then, and then the other day we was like, yeah, I feel like I'm becoming

Carrie-Ann:

more introverted and more Lee about that.

Carrie-Ann:

I really . So I feel like we have rubbed off on each other,

Carrie-Ann:

so we can't do it too much.

Carrie-Ann:

Cuz if we come in the middle, we'll lose that ying and yang of what we bring . But

Carrie-Ann:

I, I have enjoyed actually seeing how some of the episodes have landed with listeners

Carrie-Ann:

as well and getting their feedback about what they wanna see or hear in future

Carrie-Ann:

episodes, but, you know, ditch the power suit interestingly came up a few times.

Carrie-Ann:

I'd seen on LinkedIn people, you know, making comments and sharing it and

Carrie-Ann:

reflecting on what that's meant for them to listen to that conversation and their

Carrie-Ann:

own experiences, which has been brilliant.

Carrie-Ann:

And of course the the allyship one as well seemed to go down well with

Carrie-Ann:

people in terms of them wanting to listen to it and sparking some

Carrie-Ann:

thought and conversation for them.

Lee:

So that is a wrap for series one.

Lee:

We will be back with series two in October.

Carrie-Ann:

I know, and that's gonna come around quickly.

Carrie-Ann:

But fear not if you can't wait until October to get your fill of how to take

Carrie-Ann:

the lead in exciting breaking news we are gonna have our own social channels.

Carrie-Ann:

So, we ummed and ahhd and thought about it and we got through series one obviously

Carrie-Ann:

utilizing our own channels didn't we Lee., and we thought, actually, no, we

Carrie-Ann:

are, we are landing now in a space where insta and Twitter are gonna be the place

Carrie-Ann:

where we need to start sharing more in enabling some of this conversation.

Carrie-Ann:

So in conjunction with this after party episode going out, you will

Carrie-Ann:

also be able to find how to take the lead on Instagram and Twitter.

Lee:

So please give us a follow in our little summer, late summer recess period,

Lee:

as we prep for series two, we will be launching content on both those channels.

Lee:

We'll have some of our best bits.

Lee:

We'll maybe have some prompts things for you to consider based on some

Lee:

of the discussions of series one.

Lee:

So we'd love for you to spread the word tag us and all that kind of social shit.

Carrie-Ann:

yeah, please engage with us.

Carrie-Ann:

I think is what, what Lee was trying to say.

Carrie-Ann:

Not quite so politely.

Lee:

So, yes, we will put all our details in the notes section on

Lee:

the podcast for you to follow.

Lee:

If you are following either of us on any of the social channels, you'll see us

Lee:

talking about it as well, but at how to take the lead on Instagram, at how to take

Lee:

the lead but with a number two on Twitter, are the places to start following?

Carrie-Ann:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann:

We will be spamming you

Lee:

No, not spamming.

Lee:

We are not annoying.

Carrie-Ann:

It's not spam and it's not social shit.

Carrie-Ann:

It's all good.

Carrie-Ann:

We'll be bringing you all the best content from how to take

Carrie-Ann:

the lead across those channels.

Lee:

That sounds more professional.

Lee:

Okay.

Lee:

On that note, we will see you again in October.

Show artwork for How to Take the Lead

About the Podcast

How to Take the Lead
Unfiltered conversations for the modern leader
How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every week we'll be exploring a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith (from www.sundayskies.com) and Carrie-Ann Wade (from www.cats-pajamas.co.uk) as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

New episodes are released every Thursday. To get involved, share your thoughts and stories or to ask questions visit www.howtotakethelead.com or DM us via instagram, LinkedIn or twitter.

About your hosts

Lee Griffith

Profile picture for Lee Griffith
Lee Griffith is a leadership strategist and coach who works with CEOs and senior leaders to maximise their impact. A former award-winning communications and engagement director with over 20 years of experience, Lee has supported everything from major incidents to reconfigurations, turnarounds and transformations. She now runs her own company, sunday skies, and speaks regularly about how leaders can build connection and effect change through great communication and engagement. Find out more via www.sundayskies.com.

Carrie-Ann Wade

Profile picture for Carrie-Ann Wade
Carrie-Ann Wade is a communications director in the NHS with over 20 years of communications and marketing experience. She is also founder of Cat’s Pajamas Communications which focuses on mentoring communications professionals to thrive and grow in their careers. She has been named one of F:entrepreneur's #ialso100 2020 top female entrepreneurs and business leaders, and Cat’s Pajamas has been recognised in Small Business Saturday's UK #SmallBiz100, as a business with impact.
Find out more via www.cats-pajamas.co.uk