What should you be making time for?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

I think I probably had a vision when I was in my early

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

twenties that if I got into a senior position, I might even have time

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:06

to be sat having my nails painted and reading Grazia in my day.

Lee: 00:00:50

Hello and welcome to episode 12, the end of season.

Lee: 00:00:55

Well, it's not actually the end of season and I'll explain that

Lee: 00:00:58

at the end of this episode.

Lee: 00:01:00

So let's not get confused there, but it is the kind of end of the main season

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:05

It's our last sort of formal episode of the series.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:08

Isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:09

I can't believe we are on episode 12 already that this is like the longest

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:13

series of How to Take the Lead that we've ever run first one on the podcast.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:17

And we're already sat here recording episode 12.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:20

I dunno how that's happened.

Lee: 00:01:21

I know and well done to any of you that's stuck with

Lee: 00:01:23

us through the whole series.

Lee: 00:01:25

Make yourselves known.

Lee: 00:01:26

We need to celebrate you somehow.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

Yeah, I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

Make yourselves known if you stuck with us through thick and thin to make

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:32

it to the end of this series, tell us so that we can thank you personally.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:36

We'd love to do that.

Lee: 00:01:38

So we've covered a huge range of topics in this series.

Lee: 00:01:44

And today I wanted to have a bit of.

Lee: 00:01:49

It's a serious topic, but it's, it's perhaps not as serious as some of the

Lee: 00:01:53

other ones we've had, but it's one that I've been exploring a lot and having a

Lee: 00:01:57

lot of conversations about recently, and that's about self management as a leader.

Lee: 00:02:03

So for me, If you're gonna make the right impact as a leader, you

Lee: 00:02:08

need to be able to manage yourself.

Lee: 00:02:09

And we've spoken before about that struggle between operational and

Lee: 00:02:13

strategic, getting down into the weeds.

Lee: 00:02:16

And we've mentioned all those expectations of leaders, the more senior they

Lee: 00:02:21

get and the more they move away from perhaps their specialist field, and

Lee: 00:02:25

everyone suddenly wants a piece of you.

Lee: 00:02:27

So we recognize it can become really overwhelming as a leader.

Lee: 00:02:34

But we also know the truth is how you manage yourself, sets the tone and is

Lee: 00:02:39

a precedent for everyone else, how they treat you and how they manage themselves

Lee: 00:02:45

and how they manage their teams as well.

Lee: 00:02:47

So it is a really important part of leadership, but I don't

Lee: 00:02:50

think we talk about enough.

Lee: 00:02:52

So today I want to talk about what a leader should be spending their time on.

Lee: 00:02:58

And I want to start by asking you Carrie Ann about the expectation versus the

Lee: 00:03:03

reality in your career as you've developed as a leader, what have you learned?

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:08

Gosh, that's that feels like a big question.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:11

And I do agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:12

It's not that like this topic, isn't something that we talk about enough

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

and I think you learn that t hrough your journey to being a leader, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:20

once you get into leadership positions, you realize sometimes that you are a

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:24

bit ill prepared for how many demands there are gonna be on your time and

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

what those demands might look like.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

So I definitely personally noticed the amount of meetings increased

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:35

significantly in terms of expectations of where I would be and how I

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:39

would spend my time as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:41

And the bit that I think probably took me by surprise around that was around the

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:47

amount of prep time that you also need to build into your leadership life to be able

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:52

to manage your input into those meetings.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:54

Because I think once you become a leader in an organization For me, it

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:58

feels like there's more expectation on you to go beyond your own

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

professional background and your own professional sphere of knowledge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:05

So you are going to be in meetings where you're going to be expected to

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:09

have a view on finances HR operational issues that perhaps are outside of

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:15

your, your immediate profession.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

And so actually you do have to be really prepped to go into those meetings.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:21

You can't wing it and go, all right the papers came out last week, but I'm just

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:25

gonna open them five minutes before the meeting, because people will expect you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:29

to have a view and input on those topics.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:31

So for me, that definitely has an impact, I think, around self management

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:37

and how I spend my time as a leader or needed to start spending my time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:41

And I think there was also something for me as, as you were talking and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

giving that sort of context to the episode where I was thinking about that balance

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:50

of time between knowing that your role as a leader is to be more strategic perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:56

you'd been in previous roles and to have that strategic focus that forward look.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:01

That bigger picture position and, and, and head space and thinking.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

But also we've talked so much about building connection and relationships

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:11

and the importance of those throughout this series of how to take the lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:14

So there's also something about needing to be visible in your

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:18

organization, in your team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:20

So how do you strike that balance of having enough time to have that strategic

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:26

thinking, be part of those strategic conversations, lead those strategic

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:30

sessions versus being out and about understanding what it's like to be part

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:35

of your team and your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:37

So, yeah, they were kind of the first things that sprang to mind Lee..

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:41

But again, interested to flip that back on you and hear what what it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:45

been like for you in your journey and what realizations you came to

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:48

around expectations on you as a leader?

Lee: 00:05:51

I think the two that probably stick with me was one that sense of

Lee: 00:05:57

when you are quite junior in post, you always want to be more senior or be

Lee: 00:06:02

the manager, cuz you can be in control and you can have more control of your

Lee: 00:06:06

time and control of the demands of you.

Lee: 00:06:09

And there's almost like the grass is greener attitude isn't there.

Lee: 00:06:12

And then when you get into those roles, actually, you don't have as

Lee: 00:06:16

much control as you think you have.

Lee: 00:06:18

And it can be frustrating when other people perhaps are judging

Lee: 00:06:23

how you choose to spend your time or don't respect your time.

Lee: 00:06:27

So that overall of your plans, for example, and, and I'm sure a lot of

Lee: 00:06:32

people can recognize the phone call from chief exec's PA saying, oh you just

Lee: 00:06:39

need to clear a diary cuz X now takes takes priority or whatever it might be.

Lee: 00:06:44

And I think, I thought I'd have a lot more control than, than I did.

Lee: 00:06:48

I mean, we'll get onto this a bit bit later about what you can do if

Lee: 00:06:52

you feel in that type of situation.

Lee: 00:06:54

but I think the flip side to that also is the more you give,

Lee: 00:07:01

the more people will take.

Lee: 00:07:02

So there isn't ever this perfect situation or this point where people around you

Lee: 00:07:08

or your manager or your CEO says, do you know what they've done enough?

Lee: 00:07:13

I'm not gonna give them more work.

Lee: 00:07:14

They, you know, they're managing it all.

Lee: 00:07:16

It doesn't.

Lee: 00:07:17

If, if you, if you deliver, you get more to deliver and if you cram it all

Lee: 00:07:23

in, in your day, they'll give you more.

Lee: 00:07:25

That's always stuff coming at you.

Lee: 00:07:28

And there comes a point of realization where you think.

Lee: 00:07:33

I could just keep flogging and flogging and flogging myself.

Lee: 00:07:35

Is it worth it because it's gonna be relentless and it's never gonna stop.

Lee: 00:07:41

And that was quite a sobering moment.

Lee: 00:07:44

When you realize that you are never gonna voluntarily come off of the,

Lee: 00:07:51

the treadmill that you are on, you've got to take control of it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:54

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:55

I mean, I, I absolutely agree you, it made me chuckle cuz you're so right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

Is the, your CEO or whoever it is, that is dictating some of your

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:03

priorities or most of your priorities and workload is just gonna keep, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:07

know, that work's not going away.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:08

It's just gonna keep coming.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:10

I absolutely agree with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:11

And I guess as I'm listening to this, I'm sat here thinking

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:14

why do I wanna be a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:15

This sounds hideous.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:19

I do think you are absolutely right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:21

You don't get as much control over your own time as you think you will before

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:25

you've reached those senior positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:27

I think I probably had a vision when I was in my early twenties that if I got

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:31

into a senior position, I might even have time to be sat having my nails

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

painted and reading Grazia in my day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:38

Cuz I'd be able to, to decide what I spent my time on.

Lee: 00:08:41

Just get your people to do

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:43

Yeah, it absolutely isn't like that at all.

Lee: 00:08:46

No, but I think and we are gonna cover this a bit later in

Lee: 00:08:50

this discussion, but I do think you can do stuff about that.

Lee: 00:08:55

It isn't a case of, well, we, we just need to suck it up.

Lee: 00:08:58

It can feel like that sometimes, but I think there's a maturity point

Lee: 00:09:01

that you reach where you realize that actually you need to start setting your

Lee: 00:09:08

own boundaries and stuff like that.

Lee: 00:09:10

And I won't delve too deeply into that now.

Lee: 00:09:12

Cause I do want us to talk about it a bit more.

Lee: 00:09:14

I think that concept of competing priorities is something that in every

Lee: 00:09:19

single organization that you go to, you are going to see in different guises.

Lee: 00:09:26

And one of the common issues that I see and I've experienced is that

Lee: 00:09:30

feeling that as a leader, you perhaps need to put everyone else first.

Lee: 00:09:36

Someone more senior asks you for something, if your team needs support

Lee: 00:09:42

or that sense of protected time that we talk about leaders needing isn't

Lee: 00:09:47

really protected because it tends to be the first thing you give away when

Lee: 00:09:50

things crop up or people need help.

Lee: 00:09:53

And I've seen this happen so many times.

Lee: 00:09:55

I'm gonna move my coaching session because I don't have the time I'm

Lee: 00:09:59

gonna cancel that training because I need to complete that piece of work.

Lee: 00:10:02

I can't find the time to write the strategy because I need to be, or I'm

Lee: 00:10:07

gonna be in back to back meetings.

Lee: 00:10:09

I know I need to sort the team out, but we are so busy.

Lee: 00:10:13

We're never gonna get around to doing it.

Lee: 00:10:16

And it's almost like protected time has no value.

Lee: 00:10:23

I want to explore or emphasize why protected time is important and the value

Lee: 00:10:29

it does actually add to your leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

Yeah, it is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:34

And I think it's really closely linked to boundary setting and how you set those

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:38

boundaries, which we sort of touched on already in the conversation because you

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:43

know, for me, and I'm not perfect at this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:46

Absolutely not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:47

And I have weeks and weeks that go by where I don't role model my own

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:51

things that I tell other people to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:53

But then once I get back into the habit of it, actually I find it really helpful

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:57

to do so for me, there's something about about that time blocking and actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:01

putting into your diary that protected time, and maybe you badge it up as

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:06

something else that other people won't think it's easy to move on your behalf.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:10

Maybe you put it in your diary as, as time to complete actual pieces of work

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:15

or have that reflective thinking time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:17

And I think the more you can get into the habit of doing that on a

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:20

regular basis the more you then manage yourself that way, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:25

Like, I got really into time blocking for a bit and I haven't done it for about

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:29

three weeks and I, I actually do feel a bit out of control through not doing it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:33

So I'm like, right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:34

I must do that because actually I'm kind of setting some boundaries with my own

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:38

self around how I'm gonna spend my time.

Lee: 00:11:40

Can I give you a top tip

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:42

Yes, please.

Lee: 00:11:44

And this is something that actually, my coach taught me many, many years

Lee: 00:11:48

ago, and it's often we protect time to do a piece of work, like you've just

Lee: 00:11:53

said, but then we get to the time and procrastination can strike or because

Lee: 00:12:00

we haven't prepared adequately for how we're going to use the protected time.

Lee: 00:12:04

So one of the things that I learnt in my corporate life that I continue is building

Lee: 00:12:11

that almost that folder of resources so that I've got everything ready

Lee: 00:12:15

for when I reach that protected time.

Lee: 00:12:17

So if I need to do research or reading or any documents that I might need to

Lee: 00:12:23

write that strategy paper, or to write that board paper or whatever it might be.

Lee: 00:12:28

I'll have been in touch with people in advance and got their responses

Lee: 00:12:31

and everything saved in one space.

Lee: 00:12:34

So I've got no need to suddenly in that protected space, jump on

Lee: 00:12:39

the internet to do any research.

Lee: 00:12:40

I don't need to go into my emails to contact anyone.

Lee: 00:12:43

I don't need anything that might be a potential procrastination

Lee: 00:12:47

or distraction I've already dealt with because it's all there.

Lee: 00:12:51

And it makes that protected time, so much more valuable and focused.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:55

Oh, I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:56

I think that's a really good tip.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:58

And, and I would build on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:59

You mentioned about that you don't have to duck into your emails.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:02

I'm getting much better at shutting down my email cuz that's one of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:05

things that happens with me, something pops up and then it's my boss saying.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:10

Oh, what's happening with this and I'm oh, I better respond to that

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:12

straight way cause it's the chief exec.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:14

Oh, it's one of my team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:15

They need help with this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:16

Actually just close it down, so you can't be distracted by those things that feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:21

like they need an immediate response.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:23

If I have days where I am in lots of meetings or I have put protected

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:28

time in to do specific pieces of work, I actually set my out of office

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:32

to say, I'm not available today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:34

So that actually people know that not to expect a response from me straight

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:38

away, I find that's quite helpful, but I, I definitely think there is

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:42

something about that clarity on your own boundaries and understanding why you

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:48

want to set that protected time in the first place, and then trying as best as

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:52

you can to stick to those boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:55

And I think part of that is because it does start to eat

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:58

into your personal life as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

So I think if you respond to everything that comes in immediately and you don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:04

stick to some of those boundaries, you've set and you don't say right, my

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:08

non-negotiable things that I need to deliver this week, or today are these two

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:13

or three things and keep bringing back to that focus on those non-negotiables that

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:18

for you are gonna help move you forward into the next week, into the next month.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:22

Whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:23

I, I think if you don't stick to your boundaries around that, you end up filling

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:27

your working day with all of those things that feel like quick wins, cuz they're

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:31

quite immediate and it's meeting other people's needs and then you eat into

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:37

home life time by trying to catch up on those things that you said at the

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:41

start of the week were non-negotiable.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:43

And I think for me, it's back to your point, you mentioned it at

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:46

the start about role modeling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:48

I think how you start to manage yourself and your time, really role

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:52

models to others what's acceptable.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:54

And actually it might well be your choice, but if you are constantly

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:58

sending people stuff at nine, 10 o'clock at night, every night, more

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:02

junior people to you feel like that's the norm, that's the acceptable norm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:06

And

Lee: 00:15:06

It creates a

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:07

that's Yeah, that's actually not fair.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:09

And I've been there in the days of the blackberry and I hadn't worked

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:12

out you could turn the noise off, but I hadn't worked out you

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:14

could turn the flashing light off.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

And I remember being sat a few times nine o'clock at night, seeing it flashing on

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:22

the table, thinking, oh, I better check.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:25

Oh, it's an email from my boss.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:27

I'm feeling the pressure now to respond to that now because I've read it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:30

And because they're sending it at that time, they expect

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:33

me to respond at that time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:34

So I do just think you need to be really careful with that role modeling,

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:38

cuz you're creating a culture that isn't fair and isn't sustainable for

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:42

other people as well as yourself.

Lee: 00:15:44

Yeah.

Lee: 00:15:44

I mean, I always say boundaries is the standard that you

Lee: 00:15:48

set for everyone, basically.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:50

Yeah, absolutely agree

Lee: 00:15:52

I think if you don't have protected time to work on the things that matter

Lee: 00:15:59

most to you in the business, then you're actually doing real harm to

Lee: 00:16:04

the business in one way or another.

Lee: 00:16:05

So you are either not gonna be progressing the strategic direction.

Lee: 00:16:10

You won't be innovating or bringing fresh thinking into the workplace.

Lee: 00:16:16

If you are really down into the weeds, then you're probably micromanaging or

Lee: 00:16:21

working at a level down that's impacting team morale or trust things that

Lee: 00:16:25

we've mentioned in previous episodes.

Lee: 00:16:28

And all of that has a knock on effect for performance.

Lee: 00:16:32

And then you think about those people who perhaps are working smartly

Lee: 00:16:38

strategically have that protected time.

Lee: 00:16:41

They're gonna be the ones that are progressing and

Lee: 00:16:43

improving and rising to the top.

Lee: 00:16:46

And so actually before you know it, if you stay in a state of firefighting,

Lee: 00:16:55

Working at an operational level.

Lee: 00:16:57

When, as a leader, you need to be having the bigger picture in hand

Lee: 00:17:01

you're doing yourself as a leader an injustice, and you're doing

Lee: 00:17:05

your organization an injustice.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:08

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you and there's also that thing

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:12

about, back to that role modeling, but it's about, trusting the people

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:16

whose job it is to do certain things, to do them, to enable you to

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:20

get on and do what you need to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:21

And actually, if you're one of those people who feels like you have to squash

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:24

everything into the day and be all over everything, that that actually is a

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:28

detrimental effect on other people as.

Lee: 00:17:30

Mm.

Lee: 00:17:31

So what should you be protecting your time for as a leader?

Lee: 00:17:35

We've spoken about why protecting your time is important and the impacts it can

Lee: 00:17:40

have, but what do you do with your time?

Lee: 00:17:43

If it's protected?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:45

Well, I think as a leader, obviously your focus

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:47

has got to be more strategic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:48

So thinking about what are the things that you are working on that are help

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:52

setting the strategy and delivering the strategy for the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:56

So for that, obviously be clear on your vision, mission purpose, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:00

I think there'll be things that come in that are priorities for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:04

So it might be something that comes in around like a crisis that needs

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:07

to be managed or a reputational issue should definitely be things that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:11

should be prioritizing if they happen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:14

But I also think there's something about developmental stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:16

So you've touched on it already.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:18

It's development of self.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:20

I think that's really important and it can be one of the things we neglect to, to do

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:24

and spend time on as a leader, we usually push that to the bottom of our pile.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:28

But like you say, if you want to deliver the best for your team and

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:31

your organization, then you have to be constantly learning and evolving

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:35

yourself so that you can spread that and share that in your organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:40

I think you should be focusing your time on the development of your team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:43

So if you are in a leadership team, the development of that leadership team,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:47

building those relationships with people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:49

And development of the organization, what, you know, are

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:53

you doing that horizon scanning?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:54

Are you on top of what needs to happen next to take your

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:57

organization to the next level?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:59

So I think there's lots of bigger picture stuff that you definitely need

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:03

to be focusing your time on as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:06

And if you don't protect that time it's not there for you to do it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:10

But again, I caveat that with the balance of, you know, one of the things

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:14

we heard through the modern leader report that we pulled together was that need

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:17

for visible, compassionate leaders who understand where people in their

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

teams and organizations are coming from.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:24

So you do want to have those touchpoint with your organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:27

and prioritize those as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:29

But I think it's about getting the balance right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:31

Of walking the floor, but also having that strategic Element to

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:35

what you're doing with your time.

Lee: 00:19:37

I mean building relationships is such an important part.

Lee: 00:19:41

It's not an add on.

Lee: 00:19:42

It's not a nice to have I would say you need to be dedicated at least 40% of

Lee: 00:19:47

your time on building those relationships externally, as well as in internally, I,

Lee: 00:19:54

I think from a team development point of view, that's really important as well,

Lee: 00:19:58

but I also think you are there as an UN blocker for the team and that's part

Lee: 00:20:02

of your role isn't it as the senior leader, you are there to help move

Lee: 00:20:07

things forward in one way or another.

Lee: 00:20:09

And those are the actions you should be focusing on rather than perhaps all the

Lee: 00:20:13

detail of the stuff that they're working on, but it's the things that they can't

Lee: 00:20:17

do that only you can do with either your influence or your knowledge or experience.

Lee: 00:20:23

And I suppose you should be sense checking everything through a filter of does this

Lee: 00:20:28

align with the bigger picture and you need to take that lead in demonstrating how to

Lee: 00:20:36

say no to stuff and how to deprioritize.

Lee: 00:20:41

Is that a word?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:42

I, I, I get, I get where you're coming from on that one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:45

Cuz there is something about as a leader, you can often feel the need

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:50

to be all things to all people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:52

I think we've talked about this in other episodes as well about it's not

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:54

being a leader's not about being liked.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:56

You're not there to make loads of new friends.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

So actually that saying no thing is really important because actually the more

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:02

things you say yes to That are not helping you reach your strategic objectives and

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:06

take you towards that bigger purpose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:09

The more you deviate away from that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:11

And it just becomes more complicated.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:13

Like there's too many programs, too many priorities doesn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:16

help anybody to actually feel like they can achieve anything.

Lee: 00:22:13

We've spoken already quite a bit about boundaries.

Lee: 00:22:18

And this sense of the culture that you create in the way that you

Lee: 00:22:26

set and stick to your boundaries.

Lee: 00:22:27

And I've talked about this on my blog and my YouTube channel before about

Lee: 00:22:33

the boundaries you set is the tone that you're set for your organization.

Lee: 00:22:37

It's the culture you set for your organization.

Lee: 00:22:40

You are literally creating expectations of the people that surround you.

Lee: 00:22:46

And so the knock on effect of that can be the vision and focus of the

Lee: 00:22:52

organization, the values and the way it behaves, the culture and the management

Lee: 00:22:58

and the working style of the organization, how connected people feel to you.

Lee: 00:23:03

And that's why it's really, really important to be mindful of

Lee: 00:23:07

what your boundaries say and do.

Lee: 00:23:09

But then we have this culture of the urgent, always pushing out

Lee: 00:23:15

the important and that tends to override our boundaries sometimes.

Lee: 00:23:21

And I suppose I'm interested in your thoughts about how do you start to harness

Lee: 00:23:26

good boundary setting and create a culture that is respectful of your boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

I think there's a few things and we touch on this in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

group mentoring that I do a lot.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

I think there's something about openness and transparency and being honest with

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:43

your team, particularly your immediate team that are working to support you

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:48

around what your boundaries actually are and why you've put them in place.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:52

Cuz I think sometimes that can be hard for other people to understand.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:56

So if one of your boundaries is around saying no to certain things or, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:01

I'm sorry that's not my priority because whatever, I think you have to help people

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:07

understand why you are saying no to that and why that's one of your boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:11

So I think that honesty transparency is quite important

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:14

in having those discussions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:16

And I think you also have a role to play in talking to other people about what

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:20

their boundaries might be and helping them to set some for themselves as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:24

Cuz this isn't just the domain of the leaders of the organization and

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:28

like the Top five, most senior people in the organization get to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:32

boundaries and other people don't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:34

I think it's a really important part as you say, of building that culture,

Lee: 00:24:38

You've got to be respectful of other people's boundaries.

Lee: 00:24:41

And if you don't demonstrate respect, you're not gonna get it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:44

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:45

I absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:47

I also think there's something around, you know, when you're talking

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:50

about urgent, like pushing out the other stuff that might be important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:55

I think there's something about understanding who you've got in your

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:58

team to support you to deliver stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:01

And I think sometimes when things come in that that appear to be urgent,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:06

there's a sense of importance and there's something about if you're a

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:09

certain type of personality, you probably feel like you have to be all over that

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:13

and you have to own it, and you have to deliver the solution to whatever

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:17

this urgent issue is that's come on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:19

And I think you need to remember what your position is and that you have other

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:24

people around you to pick up some of that work and operationalize and action things.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:29

And actually by trying to be the sole person, taking responsibility

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:34

for solving that issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:35

You're doing a disservice to those other people cuz you're disempowering them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:39

So you have to be really clear that you've got the right people and the right roles

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:44

around you to be able to delegate some of the actual doing of that work to cuz

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:49

I think in the moment when things are coming that are perceived to be really

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:53

urgent, it all feels quite dramatic and it's very easy to feel like I'm the

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:58

only person that can deal with this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

And actually quite often, as you say, there are points when you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:03

the only person that can unblock something, but actually there should

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:07

be other people that can do some of that, that action taking for you.

Lee: 00:26:11

You've got that Eisenhower matrix, which is really good at mapping out

Lee: 00:26:16

the urgent versus the important.

Lee: 00:26:18

And then you have the different quadrants around, what do you delegate?

Lee: 00:26:23

What do you need to focus on?

Lee: 00:26:25

What do you delay and having something like that as a framework that you can put

Lee: 00:26:30

around your work or put your work through, so you can see, should I be doing this?

Lee: 00:26:35

Should someone else be doing that?

Lee: 00:26:36

I think that's a really useful tool.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:38

I, I think there are also, like you've mentioned

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:40

the Eisenhower framework.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:42

I think there are lots of tools out there that can help you think about how

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:45

you manage and maintain your boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:49

We've talked about time stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:50

We've talked about things that are non-negotiable in terms

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:54

of what you need to achieve.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:55

And I think that's a really important thing to consider in your working week.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:59

Cuz there will be so many demands on your time and everyone else thinks

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

their priority should be your priority.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:04

And it won't always be that way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:06

Um, so I think you do need to think about in this week, what are the

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:10

three nonnegotiable things that I have to have focused some of my

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:14

efforts and energy on, keep bringing yourself back to that so that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:17

do feel like you're making progress.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:19

For me, we've talked about trust.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:21

We've talked about relationships, they're all really important parts of that

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:24

boundary setting because that will be what helps you to maintain those boundaries?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:29

Cuz when you slip, hopefully you've got someone else who can step up and

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:33

go, oh no, actually I, I thought we agreed that's not what you would be

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:36

doing that I, I can take that pressure off and I can manage that situation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:40

So I think the relationships that you've got with the people that

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:43

work around you are also really important if I'm honest with you.

Lee: 00:27:47

When I'm working with leaders on the management of themselves, so I have

Lee: 00:27:53

manage as one of the six areas that I focus on when I work with senior leaders.

Lee: 00:27:58

And the three things we look at is how you use your time.

Lee: 00:28:03

So it can cover everything from how you manage meetings, how you What

Lee: 00:28:08

meetings you decide you're gonna go to all of that kind of stuff.

Lee: 00:28:11

How you create that time to think and work on strategy and

Lee: 00:28:14

planning, what hours you choose to work, how you structure your day.

Lee: 00:28:19

I always say picture what your perfect day and perfect week would look like.

Lee: 00:28:24

And then it's a sounds a bit.

Lee: 00:28:26

Woo.

Lee: 00:28:26

But then, then you can start to manifest it.

Lee: 00:28:30

The second area is, is so you, you, firstly, you work on how you use your

Lee: 00:28:33

time, then you work on how you work.

Lee: 00:28:36

So what you choose to do with your time, knowing perhaps what type of

Lee: 00:28:41

work life balance you are looking for.

Lee: 00:28:43

Cause I think that's really important to understand what you want outside of work,

Lee: 00:28:47

because that can determine the types of choices that you make it might be that

Lee: 00:28:52

you decide I'm going to take my child to school in the mornings or one day a

Lee: 00:28:57

week I'm gonna have brunch with someone.

Lee: 00:28:59

I dunno.

Lee: 00:29:00

And therefore I need to keep that space clear because that's a

Lee: 00:29:04

boundary I want to put in place.

Lee: 00:29:06

There's also something about knowing how you work best.

Lee: 00:29:09

So are you a morning person or an afternoon person?

Lee: 00:29:12

When are you going to feel the most creative?

Lee: 00:29:14

When are you gonna want quiet time and structure your diary around that?

Lee: 00:29:19

And then the third area always focus on is how you manage.

Lee: 00:29:23

So being really clear around what you need to know.

Lee: 00:29:27

When you want people to get you involved, as we've we've spoken about, and then

Lee: 00:29:31

defining the difference between what's information sharing versus what you

Lee: 00:29:36

might need to input into versus what you might need to make decisions on.

Lee: 00:29:41

Cause they are all very different.

Lee: 00:29:43

And I think if you can name and define it, it really helps

Lee: 00:29:46

give your team that guidance

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:48

Yeah, I'm, I'm chuckling to myself still about, are you a

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:51

morning person or an afternoon person?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:53

And the thought that went through my head was like, what if you are none of those?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:57

I dunno what that says about me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:58

But I think you are right that last point you made that, you know, I,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:01

I think there's something when you are setting your boundaries, when

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:04

you're thinking about how, and when you are working, when you're thinking

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:07

about, is this really urgent or not?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:09

Do I need to be involved in it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:11

It's just questioning like, what value can I add to this?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:14

And actually, if, when you've posed that question, the answer is very little, it

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:18

is probably for someone else to deal with that situation or that issue for you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:22

Because if you're not adding any value, why would you be taking up

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:26

your time getting involved in that.

Lee: 00:30:29

And there's something else that, again, I don't think senior

Lee: 00:30:34

leaders particularly, and it might be more broadly than this really think

Lee: 00:30:40

about the setup of their office.

Lee: 00:30:43

Particularly if they've got a PA or someone that helps

Lee: 00:30:45

manage them and their diary.

Lee: 00:30:48

I don't think people necessarily invest enough time in getting

Lee: 00:30:52

that right from the outset.

Lee: 00:30:54

And certainly back in the day when I was in my corporate job, I used to

Lee: 00:30:58

help set up chief exec offices and we did time audits of where and how the

Lee: 00:31:08

chief exec was spending their time.

Lee: 00:31:10

And we had to have some hard conversations with the chief exec

Lee: 00:31:14

around their expectations because they wanted to do too much in the

Lee: 00:31:20

time that was allocated to them.

Lee: 00:31:21

So they wanted to see certain people on a certain frequency and it was

Lee: 00:31:25

just, there was no logistical way that it was ever gonna happen, but we

Lee: 00:31:29

didn't identify that until it was all mapped out and we'd audited, all the

Lee: 00:31:32

things that they wanted to achieve and how it was gonna fit into the

Lee: 00:31:36

working hours that they wanted to work.

Lee: 00:31:38

And so we had that as a basis to have a really hard conversation and they had

Lee: 00:31:42

to make choices around what they needed to prioritize what they could delegate.

Lee: 00:31:47

But then we sat with PA and, and the teams and we would look at right when you get

Lee: 00:31:55

requests for meetings, through which ones do you divert elsewhere and what types

Lee: 00:32:01

of things should be diverted elsewhere in terms of calls or emails or meetings?

Lee: 00:32:06

Which ones do you escalate up to the chief executive.

Lee: 00:32:11

How do you create a space and hold that space so that they can work on

Lee: 00:32:16

strategy or they can be visible in the organization and make sure that

Lee: 00:32:22

that individual absolutely understood the importance of all these things so

Lee: 00:32:26

that they didn't try to be a people please and fit everyone in and then

Lee: 00:32:30

create a mess of the office setup.

Lee: 00:32:34

And so it was a really important dialogue that we had to have.

Lee: 00:32:37

We had Trello boards and everything.

Lee: 00:32:38

I mean, we, we went

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:40

Do you know what Lee, that doesn't surprise me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:42

You telling me that

Lee: 00:32:45

They've still got the processes in place because it's

Lee: 00:32:47

helped them to have clarity and have a dialogue with each other.

Lee: 00:32:52

And they've come from a common understanding of where

Lee: 00:32:54

they're all trying to get.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:55

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:56

And, and I think that point you make as well is not just the group effort, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:00

the process piece is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:02

So actually, if there are processes that you and others can put in place

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:06

to help manage the time better and what you are doing with your time

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:10

better why would you not do that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:12

But I think some people can be quite resistant to the idea that

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:14

there can be processes that can be put in place to help manage that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:18

But yeah, I think that that is a really important part of it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:21

And if you are in a position where you're lucky enough to have a PA like

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:25

they can be one of the best tools in your armory around how you manage

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:30

your time and protect your time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:31

And I've, I've worked with chief execs who've had PAs that put

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:35

the fear of everything into you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:38

You're like, oh no, I'm gonna have to go through that person if I

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:40

want access to the chief executive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:42

And I laugh about it, but in some respects now I look back and think,

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:45

actually that was really good, cuz that meant that person had somebody

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:48

who was really protecting them their time, their diary, and making sure

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:52

that they were being able to focus on the things that they needed to.

Lee: 00:33:56

And they don't have, you don't have to do any of this stuff in a

Lee: 00:33:59

confrontational way or in a horrid way.

Lee: 00:34:03

It's not about necessarily saying no to people, but it's about diverting them to

Lee: 00:34:07

the best place to get things moved forward and the best place isn't always you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:12

No.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:13

In fact, if, if you are the wrong place, just something sat there waiting for you

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:17

to take action on can hold things up for, for far longer, because it's actually, it

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:21

isn't relevant for you to be part of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:23

And therefore it kind of just sits.

Lee: 00:34:25

So we know it's important that you don't get down into the

Lee: 00:34:29

weeds as a leader, but we also know that people like to have control.

Lee: 00:34:35

They like to know what's happening in the organization.

Lee: 00:34:38

They particularly in times of challenge may feel that they've got to go that

Lee: 00:34:43

extra mile to show they've got grip.

Lee: 00:34:46

This is the word I always hear.

Lee: 00:34:47

People use grip on an issue.

Lee: 00:34:51

But we know if you are being too hands on or too directive, you

Lee: 00:34:56

can be undermining your teams.

Lee: 00:34:58

You could be diminishing trust as we've said before.

Lee: 00:35:00

And it actually has the opposite effect in terms of performance.

Lee: 00:35:04

How do you then stay in control without doing or overseeing everything?

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:11

I think there's something around having clarity about responsibility

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:16

and accountability and what's different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:18

And who's got what in terms of who's responsible for something

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:22

and who's accountable for it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:23

So I think clarity around that is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:27

I think there's something for me about how well, you trust people, you need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:31

be clear about expectations with them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:33

So if you are delegating something to someone else and, and saying,

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:37

okay, you need to deliver this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:39

Now set these expectations early about when they have to come back to

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:43

you with an update progress report, whatever it might be to make sure

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:47

there is that report back structure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:49

Because if you know, actually I've given this person three days, they've told me

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:53

they can come back to me with an update on that then I'm gonna stop thinking about

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:58

that now cause because someone else is taking that forward, but I've got that

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:02

sense that somebody is coming back to me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:04

So that is obviously built on the trust and relationship piece, but I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:08

those clear expectations of this is whose job it is to deliver this now,

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:12

it's not mine, but what I do need you to do is to feed to me at X point in

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:16

time because I'm have going to have to be accountable to the rest of the board.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:20

For that, for example, is, is a really important part of it.

Lee: 00:36:24

But how do you, I mean, I've seen this where people get into I'm seeking

Lee: 00:36:31

assurance, but actually all they're doing is seeking reassurance and they still are

Lee: 00:36:34

still able to dance in the weeds under the guise of, oh, I'm just getting information

Lee: 00:36:39

so that I can do just as you've said, report back if I'm asked on it.

Lee: 00:36:43

So how, how do you get that balance right so that your team aren't

Lee: 00:36:47

having to feed back on every little bit that they're doing, I suppose

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:51

that's that bit about staying in that strategic space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:53

Isn't it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:54

And knowing where your value add is and knowing what it is that you

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:57

do need to know and what you don't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:58

And I think actually weirdly sometimes it, it works the opposite way because if

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:03

you're a leader who can't get out of the operational weeds of something, the thing

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:08

that helps you step out of that is when you've got people who will constructively

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:11

challenge you and say, actually, you don't need to worry about that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:15

Cuz we're dealing with that over here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:16

What you actually need to know is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:18

Because I think sometimes if you are not in that strategic head space,

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:22

it, it's hard to work out how to get into it without other people

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:25

nudging you in the right direction.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:27

So I've often had to take that role where my role is to say to

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:31

other leaders in my organizations we're being too operational here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:36

This isn't for us to know about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:37

You need to let those people get on and do the job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:40

Actually, the bit we need to be thinking about is this bit over

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:43

here, and that's the bit that we need the assurance on and you are right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:47

I think assurance and reassurance gets very murky depending on your

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:51

personality type, in terms of what it is that you are actually seeking.

Lee: 00:37:55

Yeah.

Lee: 00:37:56

And there's something there about you need to give permission to your

Lee: 00:38:00

teams to be challenged on that.

Lee: 00:38:03

So there's something about your behavior and your telling people

Lee: 00:38:08

it's okay to challenge me if you think I'm getting too into it.

Lee: 00:38:11

Cause I think if you don't say that some teams will be fearful.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:14

I think you've got to have that level of insight

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:16

first though haven't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:17

So if you haven't done that work to have that insight, so I've worked with

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:21

leaders before heve said to me, I, I know in periods of high stress that I

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:25

become really operational because I feel like that's the bit that I can control

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:29

and I want to know what's going on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:31

And they have given me permission to say to them, you're being too operational now

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:35

you need to just let us go on with it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:37

We'll come to you when we've got the bit that you need to be involved in,

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:40

but that person could only say that to me because they had that insight.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:44

So I guess some of it is about how do you get that insight and maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:48

that's through feedback from others and maybe that's through coaching,

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:50

mentoring, whatever that might be as part of your leadership journey.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:54

But you have to have the insight and be open minded enough.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:57

I think to, to then say to others, I expect you to challenge

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:00

me if I'm not being strategic.

Lee: 00:39:03

Yeah, I think that is part of bigger mindset work that you need to

Lee: 00:39:08

do as a leader, because I think if you are someone who's been used to working

Lee: 00:39:13

operationally and maybe you've thrived in that environment, suddenly moving to that

Lee: 00:39:19

strategic level can seem less fast paced.

Lee: 00:39:23

Maybe your outputs don't feel as tangible and I've had conversations with people

Lee: 00:39:29

going well, I want to get involved with what the team's doing and do

Lee: 00:39:33

something operational, because I want to feel like I've achieved something.

Lee: 00:39:37

So doing some work as you step into that leadership role and, and the

Lee: 00:39:41

expectations of what you need to deliver as a leader to help you reframe

Lee: 00:39:47

what delivery looks like now that you are a leader or a senior leader.

Lee: 00:39:52

I think it's a really important thing to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:54

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you Lee.

Lee: 00:39:56

And then I think there's something about working on the visibility.

Lee: 00:40:00

So we've talked about that the need to get out and build relationships.

Lee: 00:40:07

I think your communication as a leader is key because you're not gonna be

Lee: 00:40:12

able to be everywhere at all times.

Lee: 00:40:15

So determining from the outset, what your personal communication rhythm is

Lee: 00:40:22

gonna look like, where people can see you, how they can access you, the type of

Lee: 00:40:28

information you're gonna share and have that as part of your, you know, package of

Lee: 00:40:32

things that set out your store again, is another really important piece of work to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:37

I think you have to bear in mind consistency with that as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:40

So making sure you're doing that consistently, so whatever you choose

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:44

is your rhythm or your style or your approach be consistent with it because

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:47

people will start to expect that of you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:50

And I think there's also something about setting expectations of the team

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:53

around you and other leaders about how they might also contribute to that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:58

And, you know, like you say, the fact is you can't be everywhere all the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:02

So actually, what, what are other people's actions gonna be to support

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:06

that visibility of the broader leadership?

Lee: 00:41:09

Yeah.

Lee: 00:41:09

Great.

Lee: 00:41:10

So to conclude this discussion, what are your howtos to start

Lee: 00:41:16

managing yourself as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:19

I think there's something for me around looking at some of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:21

very practical things you could do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:24

So some of the things we've talked about, you could implement some practical tips,

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:28

maybe it is using Trello, maybe it's using your diary in a different way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:31

That kind of stuff I think is really helpful to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:34

Cause I think that helps build good habits.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:36

Definitely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:37

So for me, that would be one of my tips and I, I think my other

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:41

reflection or thing that I think it would be helpful for other leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:44

to do is just to spend a bit of time thinking about their own boundaries.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:49

And if they're clear on what they are.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:51

If not, how do you get that clarity?

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:54

What, like, what's important to you in terms of that boundary setting?

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:57

Because I think if you can't be clear on your own boundaries, I dunno how you can

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:01

expect other people to have that clarity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:04

And I think that just will help you work more effectively with other people.

Lee: 00:42:08

Yeah.

Lee: 00:42:08

Yeah.

Lee: 00:42:09

And I would just add to that, that thing around working on reframing the guilt

Lee: 00:42:15

maybe that you're feeling around when you are working in the weeds or when you are

Lee: 00:42:20

trying to say no to things, but you'll want to be a people please, or whatever,

Lee: 00:42:24

doing some, some work on reframing what that actually means is important.

Lee: 00:42:31

So that's a wrap for series one.

Lee: 00:42:34

We are going to be back next week with a little after party

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:38

Woo.

Lee: 00:42:39

in honor of all those trashy TV shows that we watch.

Lee: 00:42:43

It's like an end of series reunion show, but just with the two of us

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:46

I guess what sort of reunion it is?

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:48

I dunno, be me and you again.

Lee: 00:42:51

But we're gonna be reflecting on our discussions from across the series.

Lee: 00:42:55

I dunno about you Carrie Ann, but I've certainly been thinking about

Lee: 00:43:00

some of the things that we've talked about afterwards and I've gone.

Lee: 00:43:04

Oh, I wish we'd spoken about that.

Lee: 00:43:05

Or something's happened since, and I'm like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:07

that bit, something happens after you've recorded an

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:10

episode and you go, oh, that would've been brilliant to talk about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:13

Cause it's about exactly the topic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:14

That's the one for me that seems to crop up.

Lee: 00:43:17

So, this is gonna be our chance to revisit, revise, refute the

Lee: 00:43:23

things that we might have said or discussed in previous episodes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:27

It's not just gonna be a recap of, of everything we've already covered.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:30

Cuz we hope that you've listened to all of those episodes.

Lee: 00:43:32

So if you've listened to all the episodes and you've got any thoughts

Lee: 00:43:37

or things that you thought, hang on a minute, you didn't answer this

Lee: 00:43:39

question, or I still am not clear on what I should do in this situation.

Lee: 00:43:44

Just drop us a line on any of our socials.

Lee: 00:43:48

And we will try to make sure that we cover it in one way or another next week.