The state of leadership in 2022

Lee: 00:00:00

So welcome back to series two of How to Take the Lead.

Lee: 00:00:04

We are back with more irreverent chat, gaffs and slips even more than Liz

Lee: 00:00:10

Truss on her routine media interviews.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:15

Oh God, that that is something for us to aspire to, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:18

Oh my goodness.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:19

Me.

Lee: 00:01:01

How has your summer been Carrie-Ann?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:03

My summer has been lovely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:05

Thank you very much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

But I'm, Yeah, I can't believe it's autumnal vibes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:10

We're on series two already.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:12

Where is the time gone?

Lee: 00:01:14

I know it feels like such a long time since we were literally practically in

Lee: 00:01:19

our underwear recording parts of series one and now I've got all the layers on

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:24

Yeah, but what's, what's the, the latest on the reels and the tick tock?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:27

It's sweater weather.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

It's definitely sweater weather.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:30

But yes, how was your summer break?

Lee: 00:01:33

yeah, it's been good.

Lee: 00:01:34

I've, um, yeah, I've been trying not to get too agitated with world events.

Lee: 00:01:40

I've been on a little holidays and, I've been reading lots of

Lee: 00:01:45

books and generally trying to preserve my own mental wellbeing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:51

I love that and hopefully, how to take the lead series two,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:55

might provide a small release and some therapy around some of the, the not

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:00

letting world events get to you stuff.

Lee: 00:02:03

It is brilliant to be back and we have had so many ideas and suggestions

Lee: 00:02:08

for topics to cover, and there's certainly been a lot going on in the

Lee: 00:02:11

news over recent weeks and I know for a fact if we'd been recording,

Lee: 00:02:16

I would've got my soapbox out many, many, many, many, many times if I'd

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:20

soapbox would've taken a battering.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

We'd have needed to get you a new one to stand on.

Lee: 00:02:25

So I thought it would be, uh, timely if not cathartic, even if we

Lee: 00:02:31

start this series with a bit of a check in on what we think of the state of

Lee: 00:02:36

leadership in general, I suppose, as we head towards the end of the year.

Lee: 00:02:40

So, Really broad question to kick us off, what, what's been impressing you

Lee: 00:02:47

and what's really pissed you off in the world of leadership since the last series?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:53

Let's start with the good, shall we and go for what's impressed us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:57

But I have to say it's been a little bit of a struggle.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:00

I haven't been, you know, leafing through a wealth of, uh, examples of impressive

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

leadership, but there has been , something that that's happened that's sprung to mind

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

for me as an example of a leader being true to their values and their purpose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

So, Patagonia, The outdoor clothing company and their, chief Executive Ivan

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:20

Shinard has fundamentally changed the way their business runs by, moving towards,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

a charitable trust and investing all profits into combating climate change,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

which is a cause, which is very close to the heart of the business and something

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:36

that they feel very strongly about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:38

So for me, I felt like that was a really great example of a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

Being treated their values, considering what their passion and purpose is all

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:48

about and doing something about it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

I have to say there will be critics, so in brackets critics will argue

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:55

that as a billionaire that might be something that's much easier to do than

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:59

a your average person on the street.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

But I did think, you know, it was also an opportunity for others to reflect on

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:06

what's important to them and whether there are even tiny changes that they can make

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:11

in terms of their leadership, to think about how they're delivering on their

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

purpose and, and sticking to their values.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

so, for me, that was a definite positive example that had a bit of a feel good

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:22

factor, and I thought, you know what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:24

Good on him.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:25

Good on his business.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:26

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:26

Was loving that so how about you Lee?

Lee: 00:04:29

I think that the one thing that struck me over the last

Lee: 00:04:34

couple of months has been, um, I dunno if you use Medium at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:40

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:41

Yeah.

Lee: 00:04:41

online magazine place the new, chief executive that did an open letter,

Lee: 00:04:49

sharing information that he'd shared with his staff about a restructure and

Lee: 00:04:55

some redundancies that they were making, which obviously that isn't in and of

Lee: 00:04:59

itself positive news, but it was the style and the tone in which he handled

Lee: 00:05:05

that bad, negative, poor news that, um, struck me because he did it with

Lee: 00:05:13

empathy and understanding of what those colleagues of his would be going through.

Lee: 00:05:19

He did it with, openness and transparency behind the decision making and

Lee: 00:05:24

making it clear that it was nothing to do with any of them personally.

Lee: 00:05:28

It was a realignment of strategies.

Lee: 00:05:30

It wasn't even a cost saving thing.

Lee: 00:05:32

It was a strategy realignment, which meant that they needed to remove certain posts

Lee: 00:05:38

and he, and there was a certain part of it where he made a point about colleagues

Lee: 00:05:44

not necessarily having the opportunity or time to say goodbye to people properly

Lee: 00:05:48

and stuff like that, which I thought, you know, it just went that one step

Lee: 00:05:52

further in terms of demonstrating empathy, demonstrating understanding, and I think

Lee: 00:05:57

of course it was gonna be incredibly hard for those staff involved, but I think

Lee: 00:06:02

it was a real signal of demonstrating how you can sensitively handle bad news

Lee: 00:06:10

a way that still takes people with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

Yeah, that sounds really compassionate in terms of an approach and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:16

like you say, going that one step further, that extra mile to share something that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

really difficult, but in a way that is as compassionate and kind as possible.

Lee: 00:06:25

We'll put it in the show notes because as I say, it is

Lee: 00:06:27

publicly available announcement.

Lee: 00:06:29

And I do think it's an example of good communications from leadership.

Lee: 00:06:33

So those are, are what's impressed us.

Lee: 00:06:36

What's really got your go over the last couple of months?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:40

I'm gonna save some of what's got my goat cuz I've got a

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:43

feeling we might move on to that and I don't want to make the whole episode,

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:47

uh, maybe hugely political in nature.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:50

So I'm gonna go with the center Park's debacle, that's what I'm gonna call it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:55

The Center Park's debacle.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:56

So in response to the National Morning period and, the date of the Queen's

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:02

funeral, I mean, center parts could not have handled that any worse, could they?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:06

We're closing everything and all our guests have to go and stay

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:09

somewhere else for the night.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:11

What the actual, That was terrible.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:14

And, uh, Then the decision was backtracked on because they could see the damage

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:18

that it had caused, but the damage had already been done, hadn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:22

Uh, that was just terrible decision making, I think from the leadership team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:26

And the bit extra bit that got my goat was that I feel like the PR

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:32

team there took a lot of the flack, around some of that decision making.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:37

And I was really interested in the conversations it sparked afterwards

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:40

about sort of comms and leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:43

And the fact that, you know, poor PR and poor communications was getting

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:48

quite a lot of the blame for that, when actually it was poor decision making

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:53

and poor leadership that was the issue.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:55

And yeah, I think there's something to be said about the fact that, there

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:59

was a team that had to be involved in, in sharing some of that and then

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:03

sharing the backtrack and trying to manage that reputational damage.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:07

But sometimes you just can't polish that poop, can you?

Lee: 00:08:10

That was the phrase that just came to my mind.

Lee: 00:08:13

You can't polish a turd and.

Lee: 00:08:15

It says a lot.

Lee: 00:08:16

I dunno if you looked at their leadership team and the, the formation of that

Lee: 00:08:21

leadership team and, the term pale, male and stale really shones through.

Lee: 00:08:26

Shones?.

Lee: 00:08:26

I don't think that's the word.

Lee: 00:08:28

really shone through.

Lee: 00:08:30

It does make you think about the diversity of voice and

Lee: 00:08:35

thought in their leadership team.

Lee: 00:08:37

It does make you think about, they obviously don't seem to have a big

Lee: 00:08:41

presence of customer voice or customer experience at that top team, They

Lee: 00:08:47

certainly don't seem to have any strategic communications, input and so I wonder

Lee: 00:08:52

how much, uh, their decision making was challenged before they made the decision.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:59

I'd hazard a guess.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:01

Not at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:02

. And if it was, then it definitely wasn't listened to, was it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:05

So, and I know there's stuff we talk about a lot about understanding the impacts

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:09

of the decisions that you are making.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:11

And, and like you say, that diversity of thought and voice and that opportunity for

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:15

challenge in the process of making those decisions and that just wasn't there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

So, I'm just gonna stick with that one example cuz I think there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

gonna be opportunities for it to us to explore some others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:26

But for me it was definitely the center parks debacle that really

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:30

hacked me off over the summer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:31

How about you Lee?, I'm interested to know what's been, what's been on your mind?

Lee: 00:09:38

It might be easier to tell you what hasn't, but, I think the one that's been

Lee: 00:09:42

playing on my mind over the last couple of weeks, so quite a recent example

Lee: 00:09:46

is, Steven Bartlett, The man who can do no wrong in so many people's eyes.

Lee: 00:09:51

But he made, I thought, quite a shortsighted comment in the last

Lee: 00:09:55

couple of weeks about generation Z which apparently I'm not in.

Lee: 00:10:01

I realized when

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:02

I'm in the same club as you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:03

I'm not in it either.

Lee: 00:10:05

But he made this comment about them being the least resilient and how his fear

Lee: 00:10:12

for the workforce is that these younger people coming into work don't know what

Lee: 00:10:17

hard work is and this, that and the other.

Lee: 00:10:20

And it really disappointed me to hear someone saying that.

Lee: 00:10:26

I don't think he's alone.

Lee: 00:10:27

There's probably a lot of people that talk, you know, this whole talk about

Lee: 00:10:30

snowflakes and the general view that, oh, it wasn't as hard as in my day.

Lee: 00:10:37

And I, I think there's a bigger discussion to be had here because I

Lee: 00:10:41

think actually fundamentally what's happening and I'm almost in awe and wish

Lee: 00:10:48

I had had the balls at at that age to be really clear on what my boundaries

Lee: 00:10:53

are, and I think, of course there are.

Lee: 00:10:57

The minority of, of younger people as there are old people who will do the

Lee: 00:11:03

bare minimum, who will look at excuses not to get involved or do work, and

Lee: 00:11:08

you get that in all walks of life, so that, I don't think it's exclusive

Lee: 00:11:12

to any particular age or generation.

Lee: 00:11:15

But I do think that the younger, this generation Z, as they call it, are

Lee: 00:11:19

just getting smarter on what they want.

Lee: 00:11:22

Perhaps aren't following traditional career paths and they're saying, No,

Lee: 00:11:29

I'm gonna stick up for my boundaries.

Lee: 00:11:31

And I think that's a good thing that we should be celebrating and learning from

Lee: 00:11:36

and thinking how can we embrace that?

Lee: 00:11:38

And I would love to see organizations as part of their workforce strategies when

Lee: 00:11:42

they're thinking about multi-generational workforce, thinking more about how do

Lee: 00:11:47

we start to respect people's boundaries and make that more of a conversation

Lee: 00:11:53

that can be discussed rather than just going, these younger people don't know,

Lee: 00:11:57

they haven't lived, they dunno what hard work is cuz I don't think that's true.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:00

Oh, you're pushing all the right buttons for me with this one,

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:03

Lee, because I, you know, what I'm like about boundary setting, it's one of

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:06

the topics that is dear to my heart and that I talk about quite a lot in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:11

work that I do through cat's pajama.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:12

So I, I'm absolutely on board with you with the boundary setting stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:16

And like you say, slightly in awe because, you know, I think there's been a culture

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:20

previously of being always on, being available 24 7, having to always go that

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:26

the expectation, do you know what I was gonna say, of going that extra mile.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:30

But I think the issues become that when you go that extra mile, that's just seen

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:33

as the norm rather than the exception.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:36

So I think you are absolutely right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:39

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:40

Quite misaligned with maybe what was going on in terms of that comment there

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:43

from Steven Bartlett there because it's gone straight to the negative

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:46

rather than really looking at, at the positives of that, which is it's people

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:51

sticking up for what they believe in being true to their values, trying

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:55

to get their, I know it's a word that sometimes we roll our eyes at, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:59

trying to get that balance right between work, life, wellbeing, everything else.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:03

So why, Yeah, why are we having a go at people who are being really assertive in

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:08

setting their own boundaries when it's something, I mean, I'm definitely not

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:11

going to cause it's something I talk about a lot with people about how to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:15

So good on them, but yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:17

Oh, I like that.

Lee: 00:13:18

I think it has the risk of almost snowballing.

Lee: 00:13:23

Cause I do think he is verbalizing what a lot of people are perhaps

Lee: 00:13:27

saying in the workplaces.

Lee: 00:13:29

And we seeing that now with people trying to push people to come

Lee: 00:13:33

back into the office, for example.

Lee: 00:13:34

So this old traditional sense of, and I think I saw something, I, I have

Lee: 00:13:39

to admit I haven't watched it so I could be completely misquoting and

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:43

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:44

Warning.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:46

Warning in advance, I might be getting this totally wrong.

Lee: 00:13:50

but saw it Simon Sinek and he was saying something similar

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:54

He was in conversation funny enough with Steven Bartlett.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:58

On, on his podcast on Steven's podcast, wasn't he?

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:01

And he was.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:01

He was saying the same thing, that he's worried about the resilience,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:05

I think, of younger generations and yeah, it's sort of along the same

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

lines of what Steven Bartlett said.

Lee: 00:14:12

Yeah, but once you start getting these big names that more leaders are

Lee: 00:14:18

looking up to, and I worry that people are gonna start taking that and thinking

Lee: 00:14:23

it's okay to be, rather than looking at the flip side, which is we need

Lee: 00:14:28

to be looking after our people more.

Lee: 00:14:30

We need to be respectful of boundaries.

Lee: 00:14:31

We need to be setting our own boundaries as leaders.

Lee: 00:14:34

I just think that we could be seeing this whole wave of people just trying

Lee: 00:14:41

to put younger people back in their place, which I just don't think's right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:45

No, and particularly for us when we're talking about future

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:48

generations of leaders and what does a future leader need to look like, we need

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:52

to be open to the fact that people's lives are changing, the way that people want

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:57

to operate in the workplace is changing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:59

And we need to move with that rather than being stuck in this sort of old

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:02

school anyway, we're probably going into something else now, but that old

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:06

school kind of like, I must see you the hours, I'm here to believe that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:09

you're actually working rather than trusting people and empowering people

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:14

to do what you employ them to do.

Lee: 00:15:16

yeah.

Lee: 00:15:16

And we know, that with younger, not, not exclusively with younger people, but

Lee: 00:15:23

there is more of a trend to have multi careers, this kind of multi hyphenate

Lee: 00:15:28

work environment so that people might only spend a couple of days doing this

Lee: 00:15:33

job and that job, and therefore that expectation that they're going to go above

Lee: 00:15:38

and beyond for one employer over another is also a bit outdated if you think about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:43

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:44

And I think in the current climate, which I know we'll probably want to

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:47

touch on in this episode as well, the fact that we think people are gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:50

be able to get by having their just their one job is probably very naive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:54

We're already seeing in certain industries, people having to take

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:57

second and third jobs to be able to survive and pay their bills.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:02

So I think e even more reason for leaders to need to think

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:06

flexibly and be adaptable.

Lee: 00:17:03

We alluded to the changes in the monarchy.

Lee: 00:17:08

There's also been some quite big changes at the top of our government.

Lee: 00:17:12

How are you feeling about all of that?

Lee: 00:17:15

And I, I suppose my, my broader question is, what do you think it's signaling

Lee: 00:17:20

from a leadership point of view?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:22

I think it's quite interesting, isn't it actually?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:25

Cuz I feel like there's something that's happening.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:27

Well there's definitely something that's happening where it's more than slightly

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:31

at odds with the realism of everyday life.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:34

When I think about the government, I don't think they're at all in

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:36

touch with how it feels to be part of society right now, um, at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:42

And I think from the point of view of the government, my perception and my

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:46

observations would be we're shifting even more into that sort of hierarchy,

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:51

dictatorship, we know best style of leadership from government, from

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:56

individuals, and a collective that seem out of touch and are not listening and

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:01

not acting on what matters to people most is, is how it feels or not what matters

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:06

to the people in the majority, there may be more interested in what's happening to

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:11

the people who are the richest rather than the people who, uh, need help and support.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:17

So I feel like there's some quite strong signals there in terms of

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:21

a style and approach to leadership that's happening within the government.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

But I've reflected, and I think it is slightly at odds actually with

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:30

what's happening from my perception within the monarchy, because I feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:34

that although what's happened with the passing of the Queen and the traditions

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:40

that came with that, and it felt very traditional in terms of the handling

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:44

of that whole situation, I do feel like now we are moving into a space where

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:49

it feels like the royal family are lining things up for perhaps a slightly

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:55

different take on how they want to lead and how they want to be perceived.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:01

So perhaps a slightly more modern approach, and getting the next generation

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:06

of leaders ready for that and positioning people to take on different roles

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:12

and maybe bringing it in tighter.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:15

So there's Less royals doing stuff out there in the public

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:18

domain, so they're bringing it in and making it more close knit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:22

But in a way, I think that's perhaps responding to some of the people who

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:25

don't see the point in the monarchy and don't want hundreds of royals presiding

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:31

at things and, and turning up at stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:33

I feel like they are trying to respond to that in a way that's perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:37

slightly at odds with the way the government are approaching leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:41

So that, that's my summary of how I'm perceiving things at the moment, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:46

probably open to being completely wrong about some of that, and sadly, probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:52

completely right about other bits of it.

Lee: 00:19:54

It is interesting from the monarchy point of view with perhaps some of the

Lee: 00:19:59

more ju not junior, the younger members of the family, stepping up to more

Lee: 00:20:04

senior roles, Will that Start to bring a different approach to stuff, or will

Lee: 00:20:11

it not, will they get sucked into the, this is the way the firm works, , which

Lee: 00:20:16

is the language that everyone uses.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:18

Which I find very uncomfortable and I would like to

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:21

see a move away from that because I think that gives off vibes that

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:24

I'm not entirely comfortable with.

Lee: 00:20:26

As a really, well, it was interesting to me aside, probably not to

Lee: 00:20:29

you or to anyone listening, but before

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:32

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:33

Let's just share some stuff that nobody's gonna be interested in.

Lee: 00:20:37

A couple of months ago it was before the Queen passed and before the

Lee: 00:20:41

change in, leadership in the government.

Lee: 00:20:44

I read the second book in the House of Cards trilogy by, um,

Lee: 00:20:51

Michael, Can't think of his surname.

Lee: 00:20:53

and it's called to Play the King.

Lee: 00:20:56

And interestingly, when you read these, these were written in the

Lee: 00:20:59

nineties or something, and he has this foreword whilst the books weren't

Lee: 00:21:04

based on particular people, they were based on his interpretation of

Lee: 00:21:09

certain things that were happening.

Lee: 00:21:10

Anyway, the premise of the storyline of the second book, without giving any

Lee: 00:21:14

spoilers, is that the new king is in place and there is a new prime minister

Lee: 00:21:21

in place, and the king wishes to be more politically active on things like

Lee: 00:21:25

that, that he is interested in, and the government doesn't want that to happen.

Lee: 00:21:30

And this political spat between the two of them trying to get the higher ground.

Lee: 00:21:34

And I read it at the time, definitely I had, Charles in my mind as the king that

Lee: 00:21:40

they were talking about in, in the book.

Lee: 00:21:42

But it's been so funny watching what's been playing out between

Lee: 00:21:46

Liz Truss and, and the King over the last couple of weeks.

Lee: 00:21:48

And I'm like, Oh my God.

Lee: 00:21:49

They've literally just read and they're playing out this book, . So

Lee: 00:21:53

if anyone wants to know the ending, read the second book,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

they've, they've made the book into a real life movie already

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:59

playing out in front of our very eyes.

Lee: 00:22:02

I think one of the things that struck me from the monarchies handling in the

Lee: 00:22:07

change, aside from I suppose all the pomp and everything that's been happening and

Lee: 00:22:12

whatever people's views are on that, I think the, one of the interesting moves

Lee: 00:22:18

that stood out to me was, Staff at Clarence House that were put on notice

Lee: 00:22:24

and how that was handled and obviously it was in the news at the time and now

Lee: 00:22:29

completely understand that probably in their contracts this is a natural HR

Lee: 00:22:34

process that is followed and whatever.

Lee: 00:22:37

But I thought the timing was really, yeah, really poor and I.

Lee: 00:22:42

Oh, this really doesn't show compassion for staff that who are having to deal

Lee: 00:22:46

with, you know, they're probably mourning in their own way as well because of

Lee: 00:22:51

stuff that's happening and, but then also worrying about their own personal

Lee: 00:22:54

position whilst also trying to support a transition happening and all of that.

Lee: 00:22:59

And I just thought, this isn't the great first step in terms of thinking

Lee: 00:23:04

about care showing you caring for, for the people around you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:09

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:10

I'm interested that you've not touched yet that much on the government stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:14

I don't know if that's, cuz you don't feel like your soapbox is

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:16

sturdy enough to handle or that you might have to say on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:21

But what's your sense around the changes in government and the leadership and

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

what we've seen so far and conscious that we've got the rest of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:30

episode to put some other stuff in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:32

This could be like a bonus episode, I'm sure from you, Lee.

Lee: 00:23:36

I mean, I don't, I I, what, what is it to say?

Lee: 00:23:40

I, I think that there is still this sense of populism ruling.

Lee: 00:23:47

And it's really interesting when you've looked at the process of who was

Lee: 00:23:52

elected leader and the mps definitely feeling differently to the party

Lee: 00:23:59

members who voted and that sense of populism within, within the party.

Lee: 00:24:04

I don't think they've got bloody clue what they're doing.

Lee: 00:24:07

I find it fascinating that they are trying to position themselves

Lee: 00:24:12

as being a new government.

Lee: 00:24:15

and in the work I do with leaders stepping into new jobs, I do talk a

Lee: 00:24:20

lot to them about distancing yourself from the legacy of your predecessor if

Lee: 00:24:26

you are starting in a new organization.

Lee: 00:24:29

But I think this government's taking it too far and, I think that's impacting on

Lee: 00:24:35

their integrity even more because they're almost denying the fact that they've been

Lee: 00:24:41

in power for 12 years and, and actually our new prime minister has been in the

Lee: 00:24:46

cabinet for, for 10 of those 12 years.

Lee: 00:24:49

So to act like they're completely new.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:52

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:52

All brand new.

Lee: 00:24:53

a break and all of that, once they find their feet, I, I just,

Lee: 00:24:56

you know, it's reeks of bs, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:59

And we don't like BS here.

Lee: 00:25:03

So that's, I don't think they've handled that particularly well.

Lee: 00:25:07

I don't think some of the moves that they've made early on, absolutely we

Lee: 00:25:14

are in this tricky time financially with the cost of living crisis and whatnot.

Lee: 00:25:20

Of course, There's been calls for them to show that they've got a

Lee: 00:25:23

plan and they're gonna take action.

Lee: 00:25:25

And of course they're gonna need to show that they've got a grip of the problem.

Lee: 00:25:31

But I don't think they've done that legwork in terms of really

Lee: 00:25:35

understanding the problems and really listening to, to people.

Lee: 00:25:39

And I think if you look at the budget, for example, The fallout over the budget

Lee: 00:25:44

and their response to the fallout most more importantly, shows a complete

Lee: 00:25:49

lack of understanding both of their privilege and also a lack of empathy

Lee: 00:25:55

with the people it's gonna affect.

Lee: 00:25:57

And I think it just sets a really poor tone from what I think

Lee: 00:26:01

we're gonna continue to see.

Lee: 00:26:05

Sorry,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:05

No.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:06

Feel properly depressed.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:07

Now let's move us on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:09

I'm not, I'm not sure things are gonna get any better, if I'm honest.

Lee: 00:26:11

So we've touched on the cost of living crisis, and I know you

Lee: 00:26:15

and I have privately been having quite a few conversations about

Lee: 00:26:18

this over the last couple of weeks.

Lee: 00:26:19

We do talk between serious

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:21

Yeah, we we are real friends.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:23

It's not all an act, just for the podcast.

Lee: 00:26:27

We know, obviously it's the thing that is just everywhere you

Lee: 00:26:32

turn there is you're seeing it in the news or you are experiencing

Lee: 00:26:35

it firsthand, whether you, it's the bills that you're getting or whatever.

Lee: 00:26:39

there's so much uncertainty.

Lee: 00:26:42

There's also so little trust and belief in the government and in other

Lee: 00:26:46

agencies that they're actually gonna be able to do anything about it.

Lee: 00:26:50

And, if anyone's listened to, any episode of How to Take the Lead before we, we've

Lee: 00:26:57

often talked about the fact that, staff and communities are looking to leaders

Lee: 00:27:03

of their local organizations more than ever to speak up on the issues that

Lee: 00:27:07

matter most to them because they have more trust in that kind of leadership.

Lee: 00:27:11

Then big leadership or government or the media, and I think if there was ever

Lee: 00:27:18

a time that leaders need to be seen to be making a stance and talking out on

Lee: 00:27:24

behalf of the people that they serve.

Lee: 00:27:27

This is that time.

Lee: 00:27:29

So I suppose my question is what's that look like?

Lee: 00:27:31

What, what, what can or should leaders be doing right now?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:34

I think we've probably touched on some of what people

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:37

are not doing, which lends itself to what they should be doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

So for, There are a couple of things that sprang to mind for me, and I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:44

there's something about genuinely actively listening and looking for areas that as

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:49

leaders, We can take action on that will make a genuine difference to people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:54

So really understanding so that point you made just now about like lack of

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:59

empathy, lack of understanding about what was really going on for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:02

I think as leaders we really need to make those efforts to understand

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:06

that and to look at where there are opportunities for us to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:09

Potentially take action to support people and make that difference.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:13

I think clear, transparent communications and that signposting, so when there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:19

stuff that we can't do as leaders for whatever reason, can we signpost and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:24

and get people to support that they.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:27

They can access to help them, I think is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

And again, you used a really great example with Medium earlier on in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:33

conversation about that compassionate, empathetic, transparent communications

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:39

and being really open about stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:41

And I think now more than ever, as leaders, we need to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:45

And I think the point you made about taking a stance is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:48

So actually as leaders, are we in a position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:51

Where we can lobby, um, and, and can have a voice and speak out more loudly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:56

And I'll use the NHS as an example cause that's the one that I'm living through

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

at the moment in, in terms of my day job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:02

But absolutely so many individual organizations and individual

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:07

leaders doing things to try and put that support in place for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:12

Whether it was supporting, uh, staff to get school uniforms over the summer

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

when they couldn't perhaps afford them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:18

Setting up food banks, like making one off payments to try and make a

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:23

contribution, um, to support people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:26

But the thing that I think is proving to be a real issue is there's no consistency

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:31

because each organization's been left to do their own thing and some organizations

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:36

are perhaps in positions where they can do more than others for whatever reason.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:40

Finances, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:42

So I think what's been really positive is seeing, membership bodies like NHS

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:47

providers and NHS conf reaching out and ing with leaders across the NHS

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:52

to really represent and lobby for a more national centralized approach

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:57

and action from the NHS as a whole.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:00

And so I think the more that leaders can get into that space

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:04

and support some of that lobbying around this issue, the better.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:08

Because it's not gonna be fixed by one person doing one thing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:12

it needs to come as a collective.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:13

So that, that was my initial thinking.

Lee: 00:30:16

I completely agree with you and I've seen some of those examples that

Lee: 00:30:19

you've, you've mentioned, and I think a few places yesterday were announcing

Lee: 00:30:24

subsidies for staff in the canteens, for example, and stuff like that, just because

Lee: 00:30:29

staff weren't getting hot meals at home.

Lee: 00:30:32

So completely agree if there is the ability for you to

Lee: 00:30:35

take actions locally do it.

Lee: 00:30:39

If you can use collaborations locally, yes, you might not have resources within

Lee: 00:30:45

your own individual organization, but the strength and power of a collaborative

Lee: 00:30:49

locally, seeing where you can perhaps support and help each other can go a

Lee: 00:30:54

long way if you're not already having conversations with counterparts in

Lee: 00:30:59

other organizations and, and thinking beyond the, perhaps traditional links

Lee: 00:31:03

you might have into maybe some of those more community based people, or places

Lee: 00:31:09

as well would be really important.

Lee: 00:31:11

I think using the media is, is super powerful and using your voice as a leader.

Lee: 00:31:17

I, I think no leader at the head of an organization should be

Lee: 00:31:23

silent on these kind of issues.

Lee: 00:31:25

They should be and need to be not only speaking up, but I suppose painting

Lee: 00:31:33

the picture and sharing the stories to demonstrate the impact that decisions

Lee: 00:31:39

are having in their organization, in their community with the, the clients

Lee: 00:31:45

that they see or, or the customers that they see, obviously sharing

Lee: 00:31:49

with permission and all of that.

Lee: 00:31:51

But I think often it could be easy to make broad statements and I think until

Lee: 00:32:01

we start to really shine a light on, it's this person in this way that's impacted,

Lee: 00:32:08

you know, really tangible stuff that you can see, you can feel, you can understand.

Lee: 00:32:15

Then I, I think then that collective voice starts to, to make more of an impact

Lee: 00:32:20

at a, a regional and a national level.

Lee: 00:32:23

I think the other thing that leaders need to be thinking about and it kind

Lee: 00:32:28

of brings us back to the point we were talking about at the very beginning.

Lee: 00:32:32

But it's the sense of what is goodwill and what are the asks that you're

Lee: 00:32:36

asking of your staff if you are asking them to put in extra hours because

Lee: 00:32:40

things are really busy, actually what does that mean if they're doing that

Lee: 00:32:44

unpaid, for example, or if they can't afford extra childcare or, or whatever

Lee: 00:32:49

their personal circumstances will be.

Lee: 00:32:52

Just putting on more pressure as a leader can be, or even just how

Lee: 00:32:57

you ask of support of your staff.

Lee: 00:33:00

You've got to be really mindful of, the narrative around getting

Lee: 00:33:04

people back in the office.

Lee: 00:33:05

I've seen some organizations say, Well, if we get more people back in the office,

Lee: 00:33:11

actually it's gonna be a good thing for them because they're gonna have heating

Lee: 00:33:15

but they've not thought about the cost of

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:17

Getting to the

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:18

office.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:18

Yeah.

Lee: 00:33:19

you know, they have to pay for their food or it, it could be more

Lee: 00:33:25

expensive and more of a concern for staff thinking, I've got to suddenly

Lee: 00:33:30

now start going into the office because my employers asked that of me.

Lee: 00:33:36

Um, and it could actually start to drive staff to look elsewhere or look for places

Lee: 00:33:41

that are gonna offer that flexibility.

Lee: 00:33:42

So I think the ripple effect of stuff that you are asking of as leaders

Lee: 00:33:49

is got to be considered as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:50

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:51

Yeah, I couldn't, Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Lee: 00:33:54

I wanna take you back to 2021

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:58

I dunno why, what, I dunno what vibe I thought was coming then.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:00

I felt like that needed some sort of like little musical interlude.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:04

What, what era were you taking me back to?

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:06

Man.

Lee: 00:34:07

Yeah, not, not, not that far, but 2021 when we were, bright eyed and

Lee: 00:34:11

bushy-tailed and we were, we did this thing called the Modern Leaders Report.

Lee: 00:34:16

And it was research that we had from people that had been listening to our

Lee: 00:34:20

show when we were doing it on Instagram.

Lee: 00:34:23

We compiled a report that was looking at what the different skills that leaders

Lee: 00:34:29

of the future needed to be demonstrating.

Lee: 00:34:33

And there were three kind of key themes that they needed to be values driven,

Lee: 00:34:37

prioritizing, wellbeing, and adaptable.

Lee: 00:34:40

Those were the key areas for, for the future leader.

Lee: 00:34:43

How far away do you think we are from that ambition?

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:47

Oh wow.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:49

Where do I start?

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:50

Let's start.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:50

Okay.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:51

You've mentioned values driven first say for me in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:55

I feel like from a leadership point of view, it is a real mixed bag here.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:00

I think we've shared some examples today where people have really been true to

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:04

their values in that leadership space, but we've also shared examples that

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:09

clearly show people are not, and I think the thing that I've been reflecting on a

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:14

little bit is the fact that potentially at the moment we are seeing role models and

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:20

examples of leaders who actually are being driven by their own personal values and

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:25

they are demonstrating these, it's just that quite a lot of us don't agree with

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:28

them . So it's a weird one, isn't it, to try and judge, because it's like, actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:33

some of these people who we might be professing to think have poor leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:38

skills and are not demonstrating good leadership are potentially, actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:42

they're being true to their own values because perhaps they are just living out

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:46

some of the things that they genuinely believe in, which is quite worrying.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:50

So the values piece, uh, yeah, was quite interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:53

I would definitely say I think wellbeing and prioritizing wellbeing does seem

Carrie-Ann: 00:35:58

to be something that's higher up on the agenda with more people in

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:02

general and I see, and I hear more leaders talking about wellbeing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:06

I am seeing more leaders demonstrating Putting their own wellbeing first.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:11

And we've talked about that before, you do have to role model good wellbeing

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:15

behaviors to make people feel like it's okay to put their wellbeing first.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:20

But I do think there is that fine line to tread because as well as,

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:24

Put in your own wellbeing first, as a leader, you do need to ensure that

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:28

you're helping those, that you need to prioritize their own wellbeing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:31

And we've just talked about the cost of living crisis, which is having a

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:34

huge impact on people's health and wellbeing, and we need to find ways

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:38

to support people around that agenda.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:40

But I think we're, we are making more progress in, in

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:43

that wellbeing space, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:45

And then in terms of the adaptability, um, aspect of it all, I personally

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:51

don't think we made as much progress as leaders as we should have done.

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:55

And I think the pandemic, if an opportunity had to come out of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:36:59

Covid Pandemic, and I say Covid now cause I feel like Cost of Living is our

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:03

next pandemic, if I'm honest with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:04

So What should have come out of Covid was an opportunity for us as leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:09

to really grasp innovation, really focus on thinking about new ways of

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:15

working and how things can be different for the workforce, different for our

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:19

client groups, different for how we run our, our organizations and businesses.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:24

And I feel like many leaders have missed the opportunity to do that now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:28

And I think I'm seeing more leaders quickly retreating back into that old

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:34

approach of I have to see you to believe that you are working, issuing almost

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:39

like three line whips to have to be in the office to do certain things that

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:43

quite frankly, sometimes even in my own experience, you follow the three line

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:48

whip and you think, Oh, we are all now sat in the same office in different rooms

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:52

on the same virtual call, so I could actually just be at home, let's be honest.

Carrie-Ann: 00:37:56

So, for me, I think we've missed an opportunity really as leaders to grasp

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:01

what positives could have come out of, the Covid pandemic in terms of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:05

way we lead, the way we work, the way we run our teams and organizations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:38:09

So that, yeah, they're my thoughts, Lee.

Lee: 00:38:12

It's interesting that final piece that you were saying, because I, I

Lee: 00:38:15

remember us talking, I dunno if it was on the podcast or on, on the Insta

Lee: 00:38:18

series, but we were talking about this opportunity that leaders have and our

Lee: 00:38:25

hope, and this was, this was in the midst of the pandemic, so it probably was

Lee: 00:38:28

was on insta we were talking about it.

Lee: 00:38:31

That leaders didn't just go back to the, Oh, right, well, we just need

Lee: 00:38:36

to get back to where we were and doing things, how we were doing it.

Lee: 00:38:40

And at the time we were talking about this concept of strategy and

Lee: 00:38:43

what is strategy and, and the notion of a five year strategy is out in

Lee: 00:38:48

the window now, you need to be more nimble and agile and all of that.

Lee: 00:38:52

We rearticulated our hope at the time was that, The staff are not

Lee: 00:38:58

wanting to just go back to how it was because how it was wasn't great.

Lee: 00:39:04

And everyone's did Step Up, did show that they could work differently,

Lee: 00:39:08

were given new responsibilities and opportunities and demonstrated

Lee: 00:39:12

their worth through the pandemic.

Lee: 00:39:14

And so there's almost this hope of a reward for doing so.

Carrie-Ann: 00:39:19

Yeah.

Lee: 00:39:20

The, at the other end.

Lee: 00:39:21

And so, yeah, you, it's a shame to see that what we had hoped

Lee: 00:39:27

wouldn't happen has happened.

Lee: 00:39:29

I don't know whether that is, Because you know, there are some

Lee: 00:39:34

companies you look at, some of the big companies, particularly

Lee: 00:39:37

overseas, have taken a stance.

Lee: 00:39:39

They've closed their offices.

Lee: 00:39:40

They have absolutely seized the momentum.

Lee: 00:39:43

Are we less adaptable in the uk because we are so driven by the center and

Lee: 00:39:50

how the civil service and politics drive the way business and public

Lee: 00:39:56

services works and because they've got that mentality of you need to be

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:01

Yeah.

Lee: 00:40:02

in this way and you need to be, and they have this thing of, you know,

Lee: 00:40:06

the three line whip and all of that.

Lee: 00:40:08

Has that just permeated down so far into the psyche of

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:13

Yeah,

Lee: 00:40:14

the working world?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:15

Mm, interesting.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:16

And, and quite possibly, because you're right, we have seen other

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:19

organizations do things very differently and grasp that opportunity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:23

And most of them have not been UK based or uk you know, Origins

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:30

in terms of their business.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:31

So that that, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:32

Quite an interesting point you raised there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:34

I.

Lee: 00:40:34

And you look at other countries like, Finland and the steps they've

Lee: 00:40:39

made recently about, reducing the working week in terms of introducing,

Lee: 00:40:45

shared parental leave in the true sense.

Lee: 00:40:48

And

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:49

And that's been going on for some time there, hasn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:51

So that culture and that way of thinking has been there for a lot longer.

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:55

And I think, like you said, our hope was that that a positive to come out

Carrie-Ann: 00:40:59

of such a horrible thing like the pandemic would be that we would get

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:03

on that and grasp that for ourselves.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:05

And it doesn't feel like we have, and it feels like, again, I dunno if it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:09

a, a cultural thing I, in this country that we, do seem to galvanize and pull

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:14

together in a crisis and cost of living I do think it is the next pandemic.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:18

It's not gonna be resolved quickly as it's gonna be sustained and it is

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:21

gonna cause a lot of issues for people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:24

And you know, hopefully we will see some galvanization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:27

But I think the thing that we, that we don't do is we don't take those

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:30

lessons on board and learn them and then embed them to sustain them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:34

We go, Okay, that was a really difficult couple of years.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:36

Well done gang.

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:37

You all pulled together, like you say, back to how it was before and it's, Oh,

Carrie-Ann: 00:41:41

why do we keep doing this like a cycle?

Lee: 00:41:44

let's dust off that document that we were working on three years ago

Lee: 00:41:47

and just try and make it work now.

Lee: 00:41:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Lee: 00:41:51

I feel hopeful in some senses because, you know, there, there are

Lee: 00:41:55

subtle shifts, there are certain areas where absolutely you could see

Lee: 00:41:59

individuals that are taking steps forward across all these three areas.

Lee: 00:42:05

I think the tone of our political landscape, the tone of our media,

Lee: 00:42:12

unfortunately I think our is, is still.

Lee: 00:42:17

Pressing it, all of that down and pushing against it.

Lee: 00:42:19

So I, I think there's a lot more that needs to happen.

Lee: 00:42:23

I think there needs to be a lot more leaders being willing to,

Lee: 00:42:28

to speak up and to show the way on this stuff, rather than just

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:32

Falling

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:32

into line.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:33

Yeah.

Lee: 00:42:35

So I'm hopeful, but that's what we are here for.

Lee: 00:42:37

We're here to keep shining light on some of that and calling it out

Lee: 00:42:40

when we see the good and the bad.

Lee: 00:42:43

We hope anyone listening will do the same.

Lee: 00:42:45

We we're on Instagram, Twitter now should anyone wish to join the conversation?

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:49

plug.

Carrie-Ann: 00:42:49

Love that little plug at how to take the lead

Lee: 00:42:53

Right to wrap up, this was a meatier first episode than, than I had envisioned.

Lee: 00:42:57

I've obviously got really poor at my chairing skills.

Lee: 00:43:00

I apologize, dear listener.

Lee: 00:43:02

Um, I will promise to do better in the future.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:05

What we've hoped is that the listeners have missed us so much

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:08

between series that they're gonna stick with us for a meatier first episode.

Lee: 00:43:12

To wrap up what, as we always do with our how to at the end of the

Lee: 00:43:16

episode, so how, if you are in, if you are listening to this and you

Lee: 00:43:20

are a leader and you're thinking.

Lee: 00:43:23

Hopefully

Lee: 00:43:23

you're figured, Oh my God, there's so much, but there's so much opportunity.

Lee: 00:43:27

Let's reframe it as an opportunity to move in a different direction.

Lee: 00:43:30

How can you start to refresh or rethink your own leadership

Lee: 00:43:35

approach at this moment?

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:36

I think that reframing is actually a really good how to, cuz we

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:39

have been able to delve into some of the lows of leadership at the moment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:44

I think, and actually it's right, It's about reframing that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:46

I think it's reframing where you are at as a leader to think about

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:50

where do I want to have impact?

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:51

What one thing can I do today that's gonna have the biggest impact for

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:55

my organization, whether that's my workforce or my customer base.

Carrie-Ann: 00:43:59

I think get back into that frame of mind, Uh, reset.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:03

Think about, you know, really trying to understand what will make a difference

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:07

for people and how you can act on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:09

And I also think there's something about how can you use your singular

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:14

voice as a leader to come together with others to maybe do that lobbying piece

Carrie-Ann: 00:44:19

and really stand up for what matters at the moment for your organization?

Lee: 00:44:23

I would caveat that when we talk about reframing, we are not talking

Lee: 00:44:28

about spinning, we are not talking about, false hope or anything that,

Lee: 00:44:36

that tries to belittle or, um, disbelief what people are going through, but

Lee: 00:44:43

it's actually, instead of thinking there is no hope looking for the

Lee: 00:44:48

opportunity to do something about it.

Lee: 00:44:50

I just wanted to make that point cuz I think some leaders think that they have

Lee: 00:44:53

to do the whole, you know, Let's get our hockey sticks and pull our socks

Lee: 00:44:57

up and oh, we'll be fine at the end.

Carrie-Ann: 00:45:00

it's very Enid Blyton.

Lee: 00:45:03

I would add my how tos are, if you're not getting out

Lee: 00:45:07

and speaking to your staff, set some time aside to do that now.

Lee: 00:45:12

I think it's really important that you are truly understanding the mood in your

Lee: 00:45:17

organizations and your understanding in detail the impacts that are happening and

Lee: 00:45:25

you're not just taking one case study or what you hear on the media or what you're

Lee: 00:45:29

hearing from government as, as the say so.

Lee: 00:45:32

If you're not taking action, look to take action.

Lee: 00:45:35

And we've, we've touched on this already today, but prioritize wellbeing.

Lee: 00:45:40

Prioritize the wellbeing of your teams, but prioritize your wellbeing too, cuz

Lee: 00:45:45

as a leader, there's a lot of weight on you to show some vision and some hope.

Lee: 00:45:51

And that can get quite heavy at times.

Lee: 00:45:53

So make sure that you are taking some time out and looking after yourself.