Transitions

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

What the listeners can't see is the way you were like swinging

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:03

your shoulders then, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:04

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:05

That was honestly just such a picture coming in all guns blazing.

Lee: 00:00:10

I was all gung ho.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:55

Welcome to episode two of series two, of our

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:59

How to Take the Lead Podcasts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

Hello, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

Welcome.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:02

Lovely to see you.

Lee: 00:01:04

Good morning, Carrie Ann.

Lee: 00:01:05

How are you this fine day.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:06

I am not too bad.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:07

I've got a bit of a tickly throat, so apologies if I have a little,

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:11

uh, clear of my throat or I have to go on mute whilst to do it.

Lee: 00:01:14

Were you raving last night?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:17

I, you know, there's a bit of me that would love to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:18

say yes, but absolutely not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:21

It gets dark too early.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:23

It's too cold and windy.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:25

I am going into, uh, hibernation mode early.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:28

I think, I dunno about you.

Lee: 00:01:29

I, I was getting a train at nine o'clock last night in Central London and

Lee: 00:01:34

thinking there's so many people around.

Lee: 00:01:37

I was like, Oh, where's all these people?

Lee: 00:01:38

What are they doing?

Lee: 00:01:39

Like, why are they not home in their beds?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:42

Why are they only just coming out at nine o'clock when I'm going home?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

Oh dear.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:48

So let's crack on enough of the chit chat.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:50

I'm sure that's not what listeners, join us for hearing

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:53

us talking about life stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:54

Maybe it is, I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:55

But we wanted to talk in this episode about change and transitions, and I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:02

one of the things that is inevitable in life, uh, is change as we move through

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:06

our careers and our leadership journeys.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:09

Being able to manage and deal with change, I think feels like

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:11

a really important part of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:13

And we talked about this in in episode one of the series, but if

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:17

we look at the current climate that we're operating in with changes in

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

government, uncertainty over cost of living, wider national and international

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:26

issues, we are all everyday dealing with the impacts of change i think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:30

But I wanted to just flip the focus a little bit because I think as leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:35

we often talk about change management and leading through change through the

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:40

lens of some of the issues that I've mentioned and the need for leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:43

to be good at change management.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:46

But I thought it would be nice to take the opportunity and take some

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:49

time to bring it a little closer to home and think about the impacts of

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:53

change on us personally as leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:56

So perhaps not through that big organizational change management

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:00

sphere of things, but more about how change impacts us personally.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

Um, so that's what we're going to focus on this episode in terms of conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:09

And I guess I was gonna start with talking about the first time I recall dealing

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

with change personally in this way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:17

And I think for me it was about landing -what I perceived to be my

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:22

first leadership position- so that point at which I took on a role that

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

I felt had more authority and that there was an expectation that I would

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:30

lead people as as part of that role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:33

And I remember stepping into that and feeling a mixture of excitement and

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:38

anxiety and I guess for me, an overriding fear that I was gonna get found out for

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:45

not being good enough or somehow I got this job and I shouldn't have got it

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:49

yet, it was too, too soon and too early.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:51

And, and I think it felt like quite a lot of change and a space where

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

I was transitioning into something different in my career that I perhaps

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:59

wasn't really sure how to handle.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

So I was gonna come to you, Lee, to say a, what was it like when you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:06

first stepped into what you saw as a leadership position and how you handled

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:10

it and can you recall that first time of feeling like you were dealing with a

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

transition in your leadership journey?

Lee: 00:04:16

Before I answer the question, which I will do, this

Lee: 00:04:19

isn't a politician slide, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:23

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:23

Please don't let it be after what we covered in episode one.

Lee: 00:04:25

Your, your example that you used, was it a transition

Lee: 00:04:30

that you were making willingly?

Lee: 00:04:32

Like, was that an opportunity you were seeking?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:35

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:35

An opportunity that I wanted and, and personally thought I was ready for

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:41

in my career and felt like I'd worked quite hard to get yet still, when

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

I got it, was pinching myself a bit and thinking somebody's gonna tell me

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:49

that I shouldn't have got this job.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:51

It was a big mistake.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:52

They meant to employ someone else, so, For me, that felt like quite a strange space

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:57

to be in because, as you say, a space I willingly wanted to transition into,

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:02

but maybe didn't feel quite equipped to deal with how that would make me feel.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

So, yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:07

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:09

You've got me thinking about it even more now.

Lee: 00:05:13

It's an interesting one because I don't think I necessarily had the

Lee: 00:05:16

same moment that you had in my career.

Lee: 00:05:20

But there were definitely moments when I had clear transition points in my

Lee: 00:05:27

career and can look back, or even at the time thought, Oh, I handled this

Lee: 00:05:34

well, I didn't handle this well, I think the thing that stuck out at me and I, I

Lee: 00:05:38

think I've talked about this previously on one of our shows, so I try not to

Lee: 00:05:42

be too repetitive, but I'd joined a new organization in quite a senior role.

Lee: 00:05:50

And I suppose for context, the, the setup for me joining was that they wanted

Lee: 00:05:58

some fresh blood into the organization.

Lee: 00:06:02

They wanted someone that would come and change things.

Lee: 00:06:05

I was inheriting a team who the feedback I'd had wasn't particularly great on.

Lee: 00:06:13

Um, but they were also, there wasn't much of a team, so they were building a team.

Lee: 00:06:19

And I, I entered it.

Lee: 00:06:21

It was like my big opportunity to show that I was coming in.

Lee: 00:06:24

You know, I was a bit gung-ho

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:27

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:27

What the listeners can't see is the way you were like swinging

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:30

your shoulders then, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:31

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:32

That was honestly just such a picture coming in all guns blazing.

Lee: 00:06:39

I was all gung ho.

Lee: 00:06:40

Um, and I think one of my lasting impressions was that I

Lee: 00:06:47

perhaps didn't handle it all as sensitively as I could have.

Lee: 00:06:52

I didn't perhaps take enough time to appreciate.

Lee: 00:06:58

I, I think I listened to the narrative a bit too much, of

Lee: 00:07:02

the organizations not great.

Lee: 00:07:05

And the communications weren't great in the organization, so I did, I started at

Lee: 00:07:10

a point of where everything's bad and.

Lee: 00:07:13

I was the savior almost.

Lee: 00:07:15

I wasn't quite, quite like that, but it was that sense of not

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:20

you're coming to fix it.

Lee: 00:07:22

Yeah.

Lee: 00:07:23

And, and I let that get to my head a little bit to begin with,

Lee: 00:07:26

and I don't think I handled stuff as sensitively as I could have.

Lee: 00:07:30

I don't think I, you know, I didn't throw grenades or whatever.

Lee: 00:07:35

It wasn't like a massive falling out.

Lee: 00:07:37

There was not one moment where, I thought, Oh, I've handled

Lee: 00:07:41

this really badly and there's no point of return or, or whatever.

Lee: 00:07:44

But I just think it was a moment in time in which I then, in

Lee: 00:07:50

subsequent transitions, I've been really more careful in, in not

Lee: 00:07:55

making those mistakes, I suppose.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:57

I think it's interesting, isn't it, it's only sometimes on

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

reflection that you can see that you maybe didn't handle things as well as

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:04

you could have handled them, or that you would've done something differently.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:08

And so it, it is only like with time that you've looked back and gone actually,

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:12

I could have maybe listened to the team more or done a bit of my own digging

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:17

and research about what was really going on rather than just accepting it was

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:21

as it was presented to you at the time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:23

So I think that is something that leaders should bear in mind, that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:28

gonna go through transition and change and not always handle it perfectly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:32

And that's, that's life.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:34

But actually it's about what you can learn from it for the future.

Lee: 00:08:37

It's never gonna be perfect.

Lee: 00:08:39

And I've also been on the receiving end of leaders who have come in all gung ho.

Lee: 00:08:45

And I have to say, you know, collectively it's had a big impact on me.

Lee: 00:08:50

It's, it is one of the things that I work with leaders on now, how they enter

Lee: 00:08:56

well into organizations and it's one of the things that I work on in terms

Lee: 00:09:02

of that not just taking everything at face value and doing your own work and

Lee: 00:09:08

your own triangulation and listening and everything before you take those steps.

Lee: 00:09:13

So it, it's obviously had a profound impact on me over the time because

Lee: 00:09:17

I do feel so strongly about it now.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:19

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:20

And I, and I like your comments about entering an organization well, and I

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

know that that's something that you do really work with, with leaders on, um,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:27

in the role that you're doing now there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:29

And I think if I take that back to my example, I don't think

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:32

I'd thought about that at all.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:34

I think I've been so focused on getting the job that I wanted

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:37

and getting through that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:38

Process and with the hope that I was gonna be offered it, that I didn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:42

spend any time at all thinking about, okay, what happens when I get the job?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:46

Like, how do I wanna land in this role?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:49

What is it that's gonna be important for me to do?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:51

What do I need to, to take on board to to have an impact?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:55

Which is probably where then that feeling of like, Oh my goodness, I'm a

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:58

bit overwhelmed and I'm gonna get found out for being an imposter came from.

Lee: 00:10:02

You could have done with my a hundred day plan program,

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:04

I could have done with your a hundred day plan program.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:06

So moving this on slightly, one of the things that I've been hearing

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:11

from listeners actually, which is brilliant, that people are giving

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:14

us feedback is about that transition when you move from a peer to a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:19

So we sort of touched on first leadership experiences a little bit, but I.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:24

I don't know if you've been in this position, Lee, but I have moved into

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:28

more senior leadership positions within the same team or organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

And for me that has definitely felt different to getting a role

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:37

in a completely new organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:39

So what sort of advice would you give to people who, who find

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:43

themselves in that situation?

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:44

Getting promoted internally and then having to step into a space

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:48

where you are leading a team of people that were your peers.

Lee: 00:10:52

Yeah it happens a lot.

Lee: 00:10:55

And I've been in that situation in organizations where I've been

Lee: 00:10:59

promoted to more senior roles, and the dynamics of the relationship.

Lee: 00:11:03

Suddenly you are, Peers become your subordinates.

Lee: 00:11:07

I don't like that word, but you are become more senior, but then also you

Lee: 00:11:12

are navigating a new world of peers who also saw you as quite junior.

Lee: 00:11:17

So there becomes two levels of dynamic that you have to navigate as a leader.

Lee: 00:11:22

Even chief executives if it's an internal promotion, still have the

Lee: 00:11:25

same kind of navigation to have.

Lee: 00:11:27

And I do a lot of this with new leaders or leaders moving into roles, and I

Lee: 00:11:34

was glibly mentioning the a hundred day plan, but the concept of having

Lee: 00:11:39

intentionality in the impact you want to make in your role, whether it's an

Lee: 00:11:45

internal promotion or you're moving to a new organization is a really

Lee: 00:11:49

important one because I don't think it is something you, you can leave to chance.

Lee: 00:11:55

And I think the mistake that people often make is when they get into a

Lee: 00:12:00

role, they feel they have to demonstrate their value from day one and they

Lee: 00:12:06

start to sacrifice certain things.

Lee: 00:12:09

So they might sacrifice their vision for some quick wins to show

Lee: 00:12:13

that they've got it all in hand.

Lee: 00:12:16

They might sacrifice their boundaries, and suddenly they've set precedence

Lee: 00:12:22

they didn't mean to from the beginning.

Lee: 00:12:24

I think when you've got friends in your perhaps peer group and suddenly

Lee: 00:12:29

your, that relationship changes.

Lee: 00:12:32

You've seen this where leaders suddenly feel like they've had a personality

Lee: 00:12:36

transplant overnight because they think, Oh, I'm in this new post.

Lee: 00:12:40

I need to become this new person.

Lee: 00:12:43

So I think having that intentionality beforehand around how do I bring my

Lee: 00:12:47

authentic self into a new role whilst setting some boundaries, being open

Lee: 00:12:55

and honest with people where the relationships are perhaps are shifting

Lee: 00:12:58

and changing is really important.

Lee: 00:13:00

I think if you try to recreate yourself in a new role, particularly when people

Lee: 00:13:06

know you and you haven't done that over time and it isn't authentic to you, you

Lee: 00:13:12

lose that integrity from day one and you lose trust and it can be really hard

Lee: 00:13:19

to, to then manage those relationships.

Lee: 00:13:22

I think from the friendship point of view, That's you having open and honest

Lee: 00:13:28

conversations with people if those relationships are changing, trying to

Lee: 00:13:31

understand how you're gonna work together.

Lee: 00:13:33

It can be as simple as having a coffee with someone and going, Look I'm changing

Lee: 00:13:37

into this role, this is what it's gonna mean, how, how are you feeling about that?

Lee: 00:13:42

And how can we make sure that we protect our friendship or even make it clear that

Lee: 00:13:48

I'm not going to be showing favoritism to you or, or whatever it might be.

Lee: 00:13:52

Um, I think that's an important part that we don't often think through.

Lee: 00:13:55

And that's why I, I go back to the point about there's a lot of stuff that you

Lee: 00:13:59

can do as an individual before day one in that job, to put the right things

Lee: 00:14:06

in place and to think through all the hurdles you might need to overcome.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:11

And it feels to me like in some respects, if there is a hierarchy

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:16

of importance that it could be more important to do that if you are in an

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:20

internal promotion position than it is moving into a completely new organization

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:25

because it comes with all of those extra,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:28

um, potential complications or extra things that you need to consider.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:32

Like the points we've made about sort of friendships, reestablishing different

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:36

boundaries perhaps, or boundaries that you didn't need to put in place before.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:40

So I think that, that, for me, that feels like that planning for day one

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:44

and then your a hundred day plan is, is as important, if not more so in

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:48

that internal kind of promotion space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:51

Um, uh, definitely for me, and I think it's interesting what you said around peer

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:56

groups shifting and, and changing because as well as potentially becoming a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:00

of a group of your peers previously, you are in that new space with a new peer

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:05

group that you haven't been in before.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:07

And I think it does take a while to adapt to the fact that sometimes

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:12

the more senior you become, that you are in more than just one team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

I think it's quite easy when you are in certain positions to think about yourself

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:21

as being part of the HR team, the finance team, the communications team, and that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:26

that's your role and that's your team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:28

And although you are there, To serve a bigger purpose within the organization.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:33

Your team feels quite well defined, but when you step into that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:37

leadership space, you are then part of a leadership team within the

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:41

organization and you've got more than one hat on that you have to wear.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:44

And I think sometimes you not quite as aware of that

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:47

until you're in that position

Lee: 00:15:49

I think the point you make about the internal promotion is true.

Lee: 00:15:55

There are extra considerations that you perhaps need to make beforehand

Lee: 00:16:00

in terms of how you're gonna navigate certain things, but I think that the,

Lee: 00:16:04

the concept is still true even if you're moving within a sector, so you might

Lee: 00:16:08

not be in the same organization because the networks are so strong, because

Lee: 00:16:12

your reputation precedes you in places because you don't know who you might

Lee: 00:16:16

come across again in your working life.

Lee: 00:16:18

So you might encounter people in a new organization that you've

Lee: 00:16:21

previously who might have been more senior to you, for example, or

Lee: 00:16:25

might have been part of your team.

Lee: 00:16:26

You don't know who you might meet again.

Lee: 00:16:30

And so, so all of those things come into play when you are thinking

Lee: 00:16:35

through stepping into a new space, wherever that space might be.

Lee: 00:16:40

How do I want to land well?

Lee: 00:16:42

What's the impact I want to make?

Lee: 00:16:44

How am I actually gonna make this happen?

Lee: 00:16:46

And it isn't something that you can just suck it and see.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:02

your point about you never know who you're gonna come across again.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:05

And, and what the, the, I hate to use the word cuz I don't really like the

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:09

idea of power, but there is one there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:11

How that dynamic might be different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:13

And an example that always springs to mind for me is, one of my friends who

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:16

went into teaching and ended up in an assistant head teacher role line managing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:22

basically in our old secondary school, line managing one of the teachers that

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:26

used to teach us in secondary school.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:28

I mean like what sort of weird dynamic is that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:31

And, and actually I think that the, you know, that our old teacher was actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:35

really open and accommodating to it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:38

But I just remember my friend saying to me, I couldn't call him his Christian

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:41

name, because just to me was Mr.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:43

Smith and I had to keep calling him that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:45

So it is quite interesting, isn't it, that like you never know who

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:48

you're gonna meet again when you are moving around in your career.

Lee: 00:18:52

You also touch on a really important element there, which is

Lee: 00:18:55

your perception versus the reality.

Lee: 00:18:58

So sometimes you can go into, you know, you might be changing role

Lee: 00:19:02

and you might be thinking, Oh, what are my friends gonna think?

Lee: 00:19:05

What are they gonna think?

Lee: 00:19:06

And you project, certain impressions that might not be true, which is why

Lee: 00:19:10

I say you need to sometimes have these open and honest conversations and

Lee: 00:19:14

explore what that new relationship and dynamic's gonna look like, because you

Lee: 00:19:18

are only making assumptions and that's usually based on your insecurities,

Lee: 00:19:22

and that might not always be true as seen in the case you've just said.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:26

And I think just to touch on that friendship point, cause that that

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:30

is something that we hear from listeners and something that we've had some

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:34

conversations about, like that whole idea of how you manage leading your friends.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:38

So you know, it's natural to build up friendships with people that you work

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:42

with, but then taking on that role I think can feel like a challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:45

And, and I liked your advice about having those open and frank conversations because

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:50

I, I think one of the things that people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:53

Particularly worry about in that scenario is, um, the idea that others

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:58

in the team might think you are showing favoritism because they know

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:01

that you are friends with somebody outside of the work environment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:05

And sometimes that point you've made around, you know, being your authentic

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:09

self, like I think you can feel the need or the desire to really like almost over

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:16

assert yourself in that dynamic, which could have an impact on your friendship

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:20

because you're trying so hard to prove that it doesn't matter that we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:23

friends to everyone else in the team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:25

So I think those conversations with the people that you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:28

friends with is really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

Think about what, what do our boundaries look like now in the workplace and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:34

and how is it feeling for everybody?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:35

For sure.

Lee: 00:20:36

I mean, I know a leader who, um, had quite strong friend group became the

Lee: 00:20:42

manager and there were definitely moments when their behavior was so different

Lee: 00:20:48

between they, they would switch on the friendship hat in the workplace, and

Lee: 00:20:53

that got really messy and confusing and it was quite hard for people to

Lee: 00:20:57

understand where they stood with that individual at times because they were

Lee: 00:21:02

like, Well, sometimes you're the jokey friend that I can have a laugh with.

Lee: 00:21:07

And then sometimes you're trying to like, call me out on this issue and tell me off,

Lee: 00:21:13

and I don't really know when we are in.

Lee: 00:21:16

And

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:16

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:17

Which mode we are in here?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:18

Yeah.

Lee: 00:21:19

So, you know, as a leader, the responsibilities is on you at the end of

Lee: 00:21:23

the day, it's not on the people that you manage or you work with to manage those

Lee: 00:21:28

relationships or adapt their behaviors.

Lee: 00:21:30

You need to be consistent in the approach that you take and

Lee: 00:21:33

you need to think it through.

Lee: 00:21:34

And I think the other thing I would say, and I've experienced this where

Lee: 00:21:39

I wouldn't say they were friendships, but they were friendly colleagues that

Lee: 00:21:42

I've worked with that perhaps you would have a moan over a coffee or whatever.

Lee: 00:21:46

And when I changed roles became more senior and those dynamics did shift, I

Lee: 00:21:50

don't think I changed my approach really but they didn't like the fact that I

Lee: 00:21:57

had a different type of authority and I was getting involved in stuff that

Lee: 00:22:02

they wanted to get involved in and you know that's okay some people are just

Lee: 00:22:06

not gonna be okay with the fact that you've changed your position in an

Lee: 00:22:09

organization and you will lose potential.

Lee: 00:22:14

I say friends with the kind of rabbit ears because the, are they friends or not?

Lee: 00:22:18

If they don't, if they don't support and stick by you.

Lee: 00:22:20

Or you might lose people who you saw as kind of closer colleagues.

Lee: 00:22:24

And that's okay.

Lee: 00:22:25

Cuz we've talked about before around the concept of who's in your support

Lee: 00:22:29

network and that needing to shift and adapt as your needs change as a leader.

Lee: 00:22:34

And that's one of the fallouts sometimes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:36

And something to be aware of and go into those situations with your

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:40

eyes open so that you are having those open, honest conversations, thinking

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:44

about what boundaries you need to set that might be different from the ones

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:47

that you have before, and thinking about the impact that you want to have.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:51

I think the other thing that can sometimes happen when you are a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:54

is that you are often the person who's in the position of leading a change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:59

So, you know, you've talked about you going into a team and, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:03

having a sense that you might need to make change in it because team

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:06

had bad reputation or whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:08

You might be in a position where you are leading a restructure or

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:11

some sort of organizational change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:14

I think it can be easy to forget that those changes can

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:17

impact on us too as leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:19

And also we can be on the receiving end of some of those changes ourselves.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:23

So perhaps it's getting a new boss.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:25

I've experienced that quite a few times now where a new chief executive

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:30

comes into an organization and you are then left in a position where you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:35

thinking, Is that gonna change what they want me to deliver in my role?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:38

Will my priorities change?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:40

Will, will we get on, Are we gonna have a rapport?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:43

Are they going to want to work with me in the same way as my old chief executive?

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:47

So I think sometimes when you're in a leadership position you can forget

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:51

that some of these things are gonna happen to you as individual as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:55

So what sort of things do you think we should be considering when we are

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:59

finding ourselves in those scenarios?

Lee: 00:24:02

I mean, for me, I think it goes back to this word, intentionality.

Lee: 00:24:05

I think regardless of the scenario, there's always some

Lee: 00:24:09

pre-thinking you could do.

Lee: 00:24:11

Things rarely happen like that.

Lee: 00:24:14

There is always a sense of you know, a new leader's gonna be joining or you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:19

most of the time

Lee: 00:24:20

most of the time.

Lee: 00:24:21

There does sometimes happen where it is you walk in and there's

Lee: 00:24:25

someone new there, and then there's a bit of thinking on your feet.

Lee: 00:24:28

But I'd say 90%, if not higher the time, there is some preparation for

Lee: 00:24:35

everyone involved before a change happens when it comes to moving job roles

Lee: 00:24:40

. So I think as a leader, part of your

Lee: 00:24:45

do I think and feel about this?

Lee: 00:24:47

What's the stall I want to set out, for example, to the person?

Lee: 00:24:51

If there's someone coming in as a new leader, just take that as an example.

Lee: 00:24:54

What's gonna be important for me?

Lee: 00:24:56

What do I want to demonstrate to them?

Lee: 00:24:57

Where do I want to get answers?

Lee: 00:24:59

Is there an opportunity here for me?

Lee: 00:25:01

What do I want that to be?

Lee: 00:25:03

What are the questions I want to answer?

Lee: 00:25:05

You can start to think what might be going through their mind, What

Lee: 00:25:08

are their priorities likely to be?

Lee: 00:25:09

How can I help support that and this, that, and the other.

Lee: 00:25:13

So I think you can do some of that pre-thinking as you go.

Lee: 00:25:17

Then you think about right, how do I need to be showing confidence to the team?

Lee: 00:25:23

How might they be thinking and feeling?

Lee: 00:25:25

With regards to how do you manage the team element, you can't make it all about you.

Lee: 00:25:32

but you do need to show an element of vulnerability and honesty to the team

Lee: 00:25:36

in terms of what you do and don't know.

Lee: 00:25:38

So there's no point trying to be all, It's all fine, nothing's gonna change when

Lee: 00:25:43

you don't know that that's gonna happen.

Lee: 00:25:45

But you can say, Look, this is the direction we're going.

Lee: 00:25:50

At the moment, I dunno what the plans are for the new, let's say for example,

Lee: 00:25:55

as a chief exec, I dunno what the new chief exec's intentions are at the

Lee: 00:25:59

minute, but we know that this is what we've got to work on and as soon as I

Lee: 00:26:03

get any more information, it's better to, to say you don't know than say

Lee: 00:26:07

nothing and create this kind of vacuum that other people are gonna fill with

Lee: 00:26:10

their own narratives and stories.

Lee: 00:26:13

So I think that's an important thing to consider if you have a

Lee: 00:26:18

lot of unanswered questions and you are feeling anxious about it.

Lee: 00:26:21

It's okay to show some of that vulnerability, but

Lee: 00:26:24

don't make it all about you.

Lee: 00:26:25

Recognize that other people might be thinking and feeling the same.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:29

I think there's a bit for me as well that particularly in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:33

example of a new leader, when that's the change that's gonna have an impact

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:36

on you personally, just reconsidering like your values and what's important

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:42

to you in terms of the role that you are doing as a leader in that organization?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:46

Because you know, sometimes new leaders come in and obviously they've been

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:49

appointed because they have the same value set that is important to that

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:53

organization, but sometimes new leaders come in with a totally different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:58

Sort of set of values way that they want to work, set of priorities.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

And I have been in that position where a new chief executive has

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:05

come in and actually very early on it's felt like the things that are

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:08

important this chief executive don't align with what I feel is important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:13

Partly for like my experience in the organization, it's taken it in a

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:17

very different direction that i'm not confident is gonna land that well, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:22

equally, our value sets are so different that I've gonna find it really hard

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:27

to build that relationship with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:28

And I think it's important to just recognize some of that and be able to

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:33

think that there might be times when that change means personally for you

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:37

it's an opportunity for you to look to do something else because actually it's not

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:41

going go into work for you in a way that feels good and positive and, and something

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:46

that's gonna help you to progress.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:48

I'm not necessarily sure that happens that often, but I think it, it is important

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

to recognize that could be part of the personal impact of a change like that on

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:57

you as a leader in your current position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:59

And to be open to thinking that through and sitting in that for a bit to see what

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:05

that really means for you personally.

Lee: 00:28:07

I mean, you say it doesn't happen that often.

Lee: 00:28:09

I think it happens more often than people realize, even if it might not be

Lee: 00:28:13

immediate, but any leader at any level in an organization will be, if they're coming

Lee: 00:28:20

into a space, they should be having this conversation around, right what do we

Lee: 00:28:24

need to achieve as an organization and who do I need around me to make that happen?

Lee: 00:28:32

And then there's the, the process of going well, the people I've got around

Lee: 00:28:37

me, are they, a) on the same page?

Lee: 00:28:40

Will they get on the same page?

Lee: 00:28:43

Is there an upskilling or training opportunity that would

Lee: 00:28:47

get them on the same page?

Lee: 00:28:48

Or do they need to just find another opportunity?

Lee: 00:28:50

And the reality is every leader goes through or should be going through a

Lee: 00:28:54

version of that to make sure they've got an aligned team around them that is fit

Lee: 00:28:59

for where the organization needs to go to.

Lee: 00:29:01

And I think as an individual, if you are one of those people in a team, Be

Lee: 00:29:06

savvy to the fact that that's gonna happen and think about where you

Lee: 00:29:09

want to position yourself in that.

Lee: 00:29:11

I've been in organizations where new leaders have come in and there's

Lee: 00:29:15

been real hesitance from the senior team, from some of the senior team to

Lee: 00:29:20

want to see change, to want to see a different way of working and whatever.

Lee: 00:29:25

And then there's been another group of people within the senior

Lee: 00:29:28

team who've gone, Do you know, I'm gonna hop on this bus and see where

Lee: 00:29:32

it goes and, and go with the flow.

Lee: 00:29:34

Who are the people that have stayed around?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:36

Yeah, and, and I think you have to be able to have those honest

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:39

conversations with yourself, don't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:41

About what direction you want your leadership journey to go

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:43

in and take some control of that rather than waiting to be done to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:47

And if that control is, Yeah, this feels great, I love the idea of some

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:50

new ways of working, some change, I'm totally up for this then great.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:54

But actually if that really isn't what was gonna float your boat, ultimately,

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:59

you're not gonna perform well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:00

You're not gonna be as invested.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:02

So be open to recognizing that in yourself and taking some of

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:07

that action for yourself rather than waiting to be moved on.

Lee: 00:30:11

I would just add to that, if you are in that latter stage, you still

Lee: 00:30:15

need to think really carefully about how you are reflecting your own personal

Lee: 00:30:20

thoughts and feelings to your team.

Lee: 00:30:21

So you might not wanna get on the bus.

Lee: 00:30:24

That doesn't mean your team might not wanna get on the bus, and so you need

Lee: 00:30:27

to still demonstrate some objectivity in the way that you are presenting

Lee: 00:30:32

and positioning stuff to the team, how you are helping them to see the

Lee: 00:30:36

vision of the leader and all of that until the time that you decide to go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:40

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:40

You are a leader while you're there leading, like you say, until

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:43

you go, you've got responsibility and an accountability as a

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:46

leader there, haven't you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:48

And I think you've, you've touched on.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:50

Already, I think in what, what we've just been talking about, Lee, but I do think

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

that sometimes we need to be kinder to ourselves as leaders and cut ourselves

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:58

some slack, because you're quite right we don't always know what's coming

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:02

next in some of these circumstances.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:05

Like we won't always have the roadmap.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:07

We won't necessarily fully understand the impacts of some

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:11

of the change on our teams.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:13

You've given us some examples, but how do you really support your team as a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:17

when you don't have all the answers?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:19

And, and I guess if you are a leader of an entire organization, even bigger,

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:23

how do you support your organization through a period of transition where

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:28

you maybe don't know what's coming next?

Lee: 00:31:30

There's the formal and the informal ways in which you do that.

Lee: 00:31:33

So you look at your formal structures, how can staff raise questions, ask

Lee: 00:31:39

what's happening, give their feedback, whether you have that structure

Lee: 00:31:43

organizationally or even within your team, have the opportunity

Lee: 00:31:47

for regular check-ins with people.

Lee: 00:31:50

Even if you have nothing to say, it's better to say, I have nothing to say.

Lee: 00:31:55

Not say anything, if that makes sense.

Lee: 00:31:58

And then I think there's the informal stuff.

Lee: 00:32:00

So as leaders anyway, how are you getting out and about whether

Lee: 00:32:05

it's in your team or the wider organization, how are you feeling?

Lee: 00:32:09

What the mood is out there?

Lee: 00:32:11

How are you understanding what the informal conversations, what are the

Lee: 00:32:14

stories people are telling in the organization that are the unofficial

Lee: 00:32:19

stories because they will be going on and your key as a leader is to

Lee: 00:32:24

try and tap into those and either use that to help inform the questions you

Lee: 00:32:30

need to answer or inform perhaps the strategy as you start to develop it.

Lee: 00:32:34

Or even just allay some of the fears and nip it in the bud

Lee: 00:32:38

if it's starting to snowball.

Lee: 00:32:41

So I think there's the big macro and the micro stuff that you could be doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:45

We've got to that time in the episode where time has run away

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:48

from us again, and I think it's about time we shared some top takeaways.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:52

So if you are a leader who is going through some sort of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:56

Of transition and experience some of the things that we've talked

Carrie-Ann: 00:32:59

about in, in today's episode, What would be your top takeaways for

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:03

those leaders, Lee, from today?

Lee: 00:33:06

For me, there is just one thing.

Lee: 00:33:08

You need to be intentional and think it through from the outset.

Lee: 00:33:10

So whether it's a hundred day plan, whether it's some form of action

Lee: 00:33:15

plan where you've done that thinking about what's the impact you want

Lee: 00:33:18

to have, what the actions you need to take to make that happening.

Lee: 00:33:22

Things like what's your messaging going to be?

Lee: 00:33:25

What are the boundaries you want to set so that the right precedent

Lee: 00:33:28

are set from, from the start?

Lee: 00:33:30

And how you're gonna manage yourself in the process are all things

Lee: 00:33:33

that you could do some prework in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:35

I, And I think just to build on that from my point of view, there

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:39

would be something about doing that with openness, honesty, and transparency.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:43

So whether that's, whether that's having an open mind about where you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:47

going next in your leadership journey and thinking that through and doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:51

some of that intentional work in that space, or whether that's about how you

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:56

are setting boundaries with peers and friends within your team, as you step

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:59

into a more senior position, having some honest conversations about how people

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:04

are feeling feels really important.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:06

Some useful top tips I hope for leaders who may find themselves in

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:10

some sort of transitional period.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:12

Until next time we'll see you for episode three.