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Episode 11

bonus
Published on:

15th Jun 2023

You didn't think that would be it did you?

You know we can’t resist a cheeky bonus episode. As we end the series we take the opportunity to reflect on which episodes really resonated with us and with listeners. And we use this episode as an opportunity to cover things that cropped up between our conversations that we didn’t get the chance to discuss.

We share our own views, thoughts and experiences:

  • 04:22 – finding your fire again – the “so what?”
  • 07:24 – getting comfortable with being uncomfortable
  • 12:40 – honesty and vulnerability
  • 19:18 – shifting perceptions of power   
  • 31:00 -  making your voice count
  • 33:21 – perception – it’s all personal

As it’s a bonus we’ve not stuck to our usual format with top takeaways. However we have delved into all sorts of examples of good, bad and ugly leadership including mentions for Edward Enninful, Plaid Cymru, Dominic Raab, CBI and even the TV show Rise and Fall.

Get in touch to let us know what you want us to cover in Series 4, back after the summer holidays.

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast: www.howtotakethelead.com/listen

We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

And if you're looking to lead differently in 2023, we've launched our new Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both. Subscribe at How to Take the Lead | Substack

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howtotakethelead/

Twitter https://twitter.com/How2TakeTheLead

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@howtotakethelead/

Transcript
Lee:

Hello.

Lee:

There we are.

Lee:

We are popping back in

Lee:

unscheduled

Lee:

for a little bonus episode because that's, well,

Lee:

we missed each other,

Lee:

didn't

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, we've, we've, and it's been a while actually, so this bonus app's

Carrie-Ann:

taken a while to come, but yeah, we, we wouldn't be as if we hadn't put at least

Carrie-Ann:

one cheeky bonus up in a series, would we?

Lee:

So we

Lee:

are,

Lee:

we're, we're, we're back today in, in your inboxes.

Lee:

Is it

Lee:

an inbox?

Lee:

That's your podcast Anyway.

Lee:

Sorry.

Lee:

That's

Lee:

off on

Lee:

a tangent already.

Lee:

as you

Lee:

can probably

Lee:

tell, I've been full

Lee:

of cold over

Lee:

the last week, so I'm still in that

Lee:

slightly,

Lee:

delirious

Lee:

state,

Lee:

which will make for an interesting episode.

Lee:

I've gotta

Lee:

do the usual.

Lee:

Hello.

Lee:

If you're watching

Lee:

this on YouTube, apologize for the Rudolph

Lee:

nose.

Lee:

subscribe.

Lee:

If you

Lee:

don't subscribe

Lee:

already on your favorite podcast

Lee:

choice of.

Lee:

Podcast app of choice.

Lee:

I

Lee:

think

Lee:

that's what I'm going

Lee:

for.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

This is gonna be

Lee:

such a great episode.

Lee:

I can feel

Lee:

it and, get involved with the

Lee:

community.

Lee:

That's still gonna be going strong

Lee:

even

Lee:

in

Lee:

this little

Lee:

hiatus period.

Lee:

I'm sure we'll talk

Lee:

a little bit more about

Lee:

that a bit later on.

Lee:

But, how are things with

Lee:

you,

Lee:

Carrie?

Lee:

On I've,

Lee:

I've, I've gotten that.

Lee:

I'm sick.

Lee:

I'm sick, I'm sick.

Lee:

It's all about me.

Carrie-Ann:

No.

Carrie-Ann:

Well, I'm sorry that you're feeling fuzzy headed, but hopefully you're on the

Carrie-Ann:

mend cuz I know you have been, poorly.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm alright.

Carrie-Ann:

Thanks.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm alright.

Carrie-Ann:

Life carries on.

Carrie-Ann:

I had the excitement of, married life.

Carrie-Ann:

It's actually to bore everybody to death.

Carrie-Ann:

It's, six weeks today since, since.

Carrie-Ann:

I got wed so married Bliss has been really good.

Carrie-Ann:

Probably cuz for about about three, three weeks of those six

Carrie-Ann:

weeks we've not seen each other.

Carrie-Ann:

So that's probably why Wedded Bliss feels so good.

Lee:

Oh, I

Lee:

thought you meant you and me.

Lee:

I

Carrie-Ann:

No.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, well, no, no, no.

Carrie-Ann:

You and I have not seen each other for a bit and it's like, oh, I can't cope.

Carrie-Ann:

I need to send Leah voice note.

Carrie-Ann:

so yeah, all, all good here.

Carrie-Ann:

I've been, I've been quite reflective on a number of the episodes from

Carrie-Ann:

series three since we've recorded them, which has been quite interesting

Carrie-Ann:

cuz I think it's helped me.

Carrie-Ann:

Reframe a few things, from my leadership point of view, which has been good,

Carrie-Ann:

and also, look at a few other examples of leadership through certain lenses,

Carrie-Ann:

which has been very interesting.

Carrie-Ann:

But as always, what seems to happen is we record an episode and then something

Carrie-Ann:

kicks off and we are like, oh God, that would've been so good for that episode.

Lee:

And it also, this series has just felt like it's happened in

Lee:

conjunction with an episode coming out.

Lee:

So

Lee:

then I, I dunno about you,

Lee:

but it's almost felt like we've recorded it.

Lee:

It's, it's

Lee:

then gone out, something's happened and it looks like

Lee:

we've

Lee:

just ignored

Lee:

the elephant in the room.

Lee:

So

Lee:

I think

Lee:

this almost is

Lee:

our makeup

Lee:

episode, this bonus episode.

Carrie-Ann:

a cathartic sort of therapy episode, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And I'm like, we promised we did know about these things.

Carrie-Ann:

We just already recorded the episode.

Carrie-Ann:

That coincided with that happening.

Lee:

And I'm

Lee:

pretty sure we'll have forgotten

Lee:

stuff already.

Lee:

I

Lee:

dunno about you, but stuff

Lee:

crops

Lee:

up and I go, oh,

Lee:

oh, we should have talked about that.

Lee:

We

Lee:

should have spoken about that.

Lee:

And then, probably I forget

Lee:

again.

Lee:

So I'm hoping that you've made a note

Lee:

somewhere.

Lee:

I've got a couple

Lee:

of things that,

Lee:

that have kind

Lee:

my go over the last few,

Carrie-Ann:

Just a couple.

Lee:

Yeah,

Lee:

just a

Lee:

couple.

Lee:

It's, but that's the weird state, isn't

Lee:

it?

Lee:

Because, and I think that, I

Lee:

think we've talked about this

Lee:

on episodes before of where you just get into an

Lee:

apathetic place with everything going on and you almost disengage.

Lee:

And that's the

Lee:

problem with organizations.

Lee:

And, when you've got maybe

Lee:

poor culture or stuff that's

Lee:

going on,

Lee:

the risk is that your staff or your stakeholders or communities

Lee:

disengage because they're

Lee:

just like, ugh.

Lee:

It's noise.

Lee:

I can't be bothered with it anymore.

Lee:

And then

Lee:

that organization or individuals get

Lee:

away with it.

Lee:

And that's, that's the, you've

Lee:

almost gotta find the fire

Lee:

again,

Lee:

haven't you?

Lee:

In a way

Lee:

to feel

Lee:

like we

Lee:

could

Lee:

do something about

Lee:

it.

Lee:

And I think that's been one of my reflections of this series has

Lee:

been,

Lee:

and, and it's probably come through in

Lee:

some of the episodes.

Lee:

It's like the, so

Lee:

what factor?

Lee:

These,

Lee:

these are issues, no doubt that we've covered this

Lee:

series.

Lee:

But he's like,

Lee:

it's, it's, there's this song,

Lee:

right?

Lee:

I've

Lee:

been listening

Lee:

to Little Simz I dunno if you've,

Lee:

she's got this brilliant

Lee:

song.

Carrie-Ann:

You sound

Carrie-Ann:

trendy.

Lee:

yeah.

Lee:

Yes.

Lee:

and, she's

Lee:

got this

Lee:

song called

Lee:

Woman, which is brilliant, but she talks about,

Lee:

all action, no Talk.

Lee:

And I was like, yeah,

Lee:

where's the

Lee:

action?

Lee:

And, and I, every time

Lee:

I hear that song, it makes me think of this show for

Lee:

some reason,

Lee:

because it's like,

Lee:

Where's

Lee:

the action coming

Lee:

from?

Lee:

All the things we talk about.

Carrie-Ann:

That's definitely been the theme, hasn't it, for this series.

Carrie-Ann:

So we've got to series three and it's like, okay, we've done a lot of

Carrie-Ann:

talking, but, but what is the action?

Carrie-Ann:

But what's been really interesting is I'd seen a couple of threads

Carrie-Ann:

on Twitter actually, maybe last week or the week before, and.

Carrie-Ann:

There was still that thing about like, why don't people take action and stand

Carrie-Ann:

up to the things that are happening organizationally or with particular

Carrie-Ann:

leaders that just don't sit right.

Carrie-Ann:

And there's still something for me about that sort of fear of consequence.

Carrie-Ann:

And I know we've talked about this in, in the series, but actually are people not

Carrie-Ann:

taking action because they don't believe that anything will ever be different?

Carrie-Ann:

That apathy that you've just talked about and that disengagement

Carrie-Ann:

or, or is there a genuine.

Carrie-Ann:

Kind of fear.

Carrie-Ann:

If I'm the one that takes the action somehow, I'm the one that's gonna

Carrie-Ann:

face the consequence, not the person who's demonstrating that bad behavior.

Carrie-Ann:

And I just don't know.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

How, how we shift that dial, I guess.

Lee:

Yeah,

Lee:

there's, there's

Lee:

been a few

Lee:

cases that I'd have to say over the last two or three

Lee:

weeks,

Lee:

where

Lee:

I've

Lee:

seen people starting to

Lee:

call out

Lee:

a few of

Lee:

the

Lee:

poor leadership, particularly

Lee:

in the health sector.

Lee:

I,

Lee:

I've

Lee:

noticed, call out some of the poor leaderships.

Lee:

behaviors in

Lee:

organizations in a far

Lee:

more

Lee:

overt

Lee:

way than, than I've seen or been used to.

Lee:

So I dunno

Lee:

whether that is the start of a,

Lee:

a tide turn in.

Lee:

although

Lee:

it

Lee:

is interesting to see people's reactions to

Lee:

that as well,

Lee:

and, and the Yeah.

Lee:

Doesn't always

Lee:

feel like it's,

Lee:

it's getting a ground

Lee:

swell of, of support.

Carrie-Ann:

But I guess it has to start somewhere, doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

So I'm gonna be hopeful, like you said, that that's the seed of

Carrie-Ann:

something that might start to really shift cultures in that particular

Carrie-Ann:

sector, and I'm sure in other sectors.

Carrie-Ann:

Similar things start to be called out or are being called out.

Carrie-Ann:

But yeah, it's a tough one.

Carrie-Ann:

It is a tough nut to crack.

Carrie-Ann:

Is that the saying?

Carrie-Ann:

It's a tough nut to crack,

Lee:

Don't ask me.

Lee:

You

Lee:

always mess up my hands.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, sorry.

Carrie-Ann:

You weren't the right person to ask with your lims, were you?

Carrie-Ann:

But yeah, it's, it is, it is hard to know what the action Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

Should be.

Carrie-Ann:

But I guess it's about.

Carrie-Ann:

I guess it's about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And realizing that in your role as a leader, that is gonna

Carrie-Ann:

sometimes be what it's about.

Carrie-Ann:

And you are a leader.

Carrie-Ann:

You might have to challenge your own behaviors, but you might also have

Carrie-Ann:

to challenge the behaviors of others in your leadership team and your

Carrie-Ann:

organization and call that out if you genuinely want to see that shift in

Carrie-Ann:

culture and, and something change.

Lee:

How's that been going for

Lee:

you?

Carrie-Ann:

Ah.

Carrie-Ann:

Well, I dunno, what's the, I dunno if there's a signal,

Carrie-Ann:

we're on YouTube, it won't help podcast listeners, but isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

So let's go with Soso.

Carrie-Ann:

Let's go with Soso.

Carrie-Ann:

It's, yeah, it's, it is very interesting, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

That, A change in leadership can make such a change in a

Carrie-Ann:

dynamic in, in an organization.

Carrie-Ann:

and I think changes in leadership, we're going on, I'm going off on a tangent here.

Carrie-Ann:

I was gonna say, I think changes in leadership lead to

Carrie-Ann:

uncertainty, and that's natural.

Carrie-Ann:

Whether that change is a positive or potentially not so positive change.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think that uncertainty is, is sort of a natural thing to react

Carrie-Ann:

to because just changing one person Shifts everything, doesn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And so actually, if you are in a, in a team where there's lots of change that can

Carrie-Ann:

feel even more unsettling, I guess it's about how you individually are choosing

Carrie-Ann:

to deal with that change, but also how as a team you let that affect your dynamic.

Carrie-Ann:

And yeah, there's something for me about that worry that when you've.

Carrie-Ann:

Spent a lot of time building a strong team and trying to shift a culture

Carrie-Ann:

that just one change in that team dynamic can have a really big impact.

Carrie-Ann:

And potentially you see things going backwards before they

Carrie-Ann:

go, they progress forwards.

Carrie-Ann:

So it's just about how you manage that.

Lee:

nothing's a linear progress.

Lee:

Is it?

Lee:

It will have, its,

Lee:

its ebbs and flows.

Lee:

It's whether

Lee:

it's goes down to, to quickly dip up

Lee:

and,

Lee:

and how

Lee:

sharp that spike is, I suppose, isn't it?

Lee:

But I think part of the thing, we've talked about this

Lee:

in, in previous episodes,

Lee:

that.

Lee:

As a

Lee:

leader,

Lee:

if you

Lee:

are the person joining an organization and

Lee:

being, you've got

Lee:

your own agenda.

Lee:

You've got

Lee:

your own intent and vision

Lee:

and all of that kind of stuff, but entering in listening mode with a clear

Lee:

plan of, the first thing I need to do is

Lee:

to understand the people

Lee:

and understand what people want from.

Lee:

Me and the

Lee:

organization, and it's not about

Lee:

coming in, trying to press your agenda from, from day one.

Lee:

You, there's ways you can get your

Lee:

agenda

Lee:

into an organization, but

Lee:

you have to, there's such a mindset shift you have to do and

Lee:

preparation.

Lee:

You have to do, you don't, I

Lee:

think it's naive for people

Lee:

to think

Lee:

they could just land into an organization and go, this is, this is how I want it to

Lee:

be.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, and I, I think it's that conversation we've had previously

Carrie-Ann:

around kind of taking people on the journey with you, which might take

Carrie-Ann:

longer to get to, but fundamentally will be more impactful because those people

Carrie-Ann:

are buying into whatever the vision is.

Carrie-Ann:

The strategy is that you are trying to land with them because they

Carrie-Ann:

feel like they've been listened to, they've been engaged in it.

Carrie-Ann:

They understand the rationale.

Carrie-Ann:

Potentially for why something might need to change.

Carrie-Ann:

so they're kind of part of it and, and in some respects, they then have a choice,

Carrie-Ann:

which is they get on board and they engage in it or they don't, and they make

Carrie-Ann:

decisions about how they handle that.

Carrie-Ann:

I think if you don't put that investment into doing that engagement

Carrie-Ann:

early doors, then actually you run the risk of far more people.

Carrie-Ann:

Just going to SNE is not for me, know, I, I'm not.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, this is this.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm not gonna buy into this.

Carrie-Ann:

So yeah, lots, lots of, and you are right, I think in the health sector we

Carrie-Ann:

are challenge and we're seeing, I dunno if some of that's come from people taking

Carrie-Ann:

action around things like, pay, pay awards and the industrial action stuff and fee.

Carrie-Ann:

People just feeling that strength of like, no, actually I'm gonna

Carrie-Ann:

stand up for what I believe in.

Carrie-Ann:

Maybe that's filtering beyond that pay debate into other aspects of healthcare.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann:

But I'm still, I'm still concerned that there is a fear factor that

Carrie-Ann:

speak up because they're afraid.

Carrie-Ann:

And if they're afraid, then to me that means it's because there's a culture

Carrie-Ann:

of bullying and poor leadership.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Well there's that psychological

Lee:

safety

Lee:

episode that we

Lee:

did in series two.

Lee:

Was it, that, that goes to the heart of

Lee:

if people don't feel like they can

Lee:

speak up about things?

Carrie-Ann:

on that point around psychological safety.

Carrie-Ann:

Sorry to interrupt you cuz you're probably just about to get on AFL on a flow.

Lee:

No.

Carrie-Ann:

there, there was something for me around that and the owning

Carrie-Ann:

your s h i t episode that we did, that I personally reflected on because I

Carrie-Ann:

experienced something at work that I found quite triggering and I reacted to

Carrie-Ann:

in the moment in a way that on reflection, I was really disappointed in myself for

Carrie-Ann:

the way that I reacted, and I, I muled it over a lot afterwards and I probably

Carrie-Ann:

gave myself maybe more of a hard time about it internally than I needed to.

Carrie-Ann:

But I got to the point where I was like, I feel like I need to address

Carrie-Ann:

this in my team because I wasn't proud of the way I reacted and I didn't

Carrie-Ann:

react in the leadership style and.

Carrie-Ann:

Kind of approach that we talk about quite a lot.

Carrie-Ann:

Well, not quite a lot, all the time on this podcast.

Carrie-Ann:

And it was quite interesting having that wider conversation with my own

Carrie-Ann:

team because I feel like me saying it as the leader of that team enabled

Carrie-Ann:

other people to kind of open up about some of the things that had concerned

Carrie-Ann:

them about the situation that happened.

Carrie-Ann:

And

Lee:

it a team?

Lee:

I mean, I know you

Carrie-Ann:

yeah, it was

Lee:

to go into the situ, but was it within your team a situation

Carrie-Ann:

It was, it was with, it was an organizational

Carrie-Ann:

situation that was, in front of

Carrie-Ann:

team members.

Carrie-Ann:

So, And so it was just, I dunno, I just felt like I probably never really as

Carrie-Ann:

openly done that before with my team.

Carrie-Ann:

That's not to say I haven't felt able to be vulnerable be open and

Carrie-Ann:

transparent, but actually say it.

Carrie-Ann:

I reacted like this and I did this.

Carrie-Ann:

And actually I've reflected on it and I don't feel very proud of myself.

Carrie-Ann:

I've probably never said that bluntly, to my entire team before.

Carrie-Ann:

And it's probably the first time I wasn't particularly nervous about

Carrie-Ann:

what their reaction might be.

Carrie-Ann:

Cause I was a bit like each one of them will react how they want to react to that.

Carrie-Ann:

But that's coming from, what I've said is coming from a place of how

Carrie-Ann:

I feel because I don't feel proud of how I handled that situation.

Carrie-Ann:

And it was just, yeah, it turned into, taking up most of the team meeting

Carrie-Ann:

conversation and it felt like people, I hope, and obviously I can only say

Carrie-Ann:

it from my perceptions, were able.

Carrie-Ann:

To be a bit more open about how they felt about that situation as well.

Carrie-Ann:

And then sort of leading into them talking about more things that they

Carrie-Ann:

were worried about and actually, was your reaction be like sy

Carrie-Ann:

symptomatic of what we are concerned about as well in the organization.

Carrie-Ann:

So yeah, I felt, I felt

Lee:

they perceive, did they perceive your

Lee:

reaction to be as you perceived

Lee:

it or

Carrie-Ann:

no, not really actually.

Carrie-Ann:

most of the team were like, actually we are really pleased you reacted

Carrie-Ann:

that way cuz it showed that you cared.

Carrie-Ann:

And, and almo almost a like, not a thank you, but like a well done.

Carrie-Ann:

We are glad that you cared enough to react in that way.

Carrie-Ann:

Some them with insight of like, but I can see why you wouldn't have felt like that

Carrie-Ann:

was the right thing to do on reflection.

Carrie-Ann:

And then, I think.

Carrie-Ann:

A couple of people that I work more closely with, probably more

Carrie-Ann:

perceptive about why that made me uncomfortable because I felt like I

Carrie-Ann:

was demonstrating some of the behaviors that really I was trying to call out.

Carrie-Ann:

But I think, I guess maybe depends on how closely in the people work with me.

Carrie-Ann:

But, but yeah, maybe not.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, not, I didn't think they felt it was as awful as I felt it was.

Carrie-Ann:

But it was awful for me cuz I didn't like how I reacted.

Carrie-Ann:

So regardless of whether they perceived it that way, that was how it was for me.

Lee:

I

Lee:

asked that only because,

Lee:

I'm, I'm really interested in people's perception on what is great

Lee:

leadership you demonstrate leadership.

Lee:

And I dunno, we've had a brief conversation about that TV

Lee:

show rising Full.

Lee:

I dunno, I dunno if you've,

Lee:

you, I, I,

Lee:

I've forced you to watch it.

Lee:

I dunno if you actually

Lee:

got grams of

Carrie-Ann:

I, I watched a bit of it.

Carrie-Ann:

I haven't binged watched the whole lot cuz I hadn't actually quite realized

Carrie-Ann:

how many episodes there were gonna be, if I'm honestly, but I did, I

Carrie-Ann:

did watch a few, a few bits of it.

Lee:

I

Lee:

mean, I, that was, that

Lee:

for me was a show where,

Lee:

yeah, just people's perception of what power was, what leadership was.

Lee:

And actually there was

Lee:

some

Lee:

behaviors that we've called out on this show

Lee:

before, which people

Lee:

on that

Lee:

show were

Lee:

applauding when

Lee:

others.

Lee:

Demonstrated

Lee:

those as, and

Lee:

they saw 'em as assets and

Lee:

qualities of good leadership.

Lee:

So the really

Lee:

assertiveness,

Lee:

the, belittling

Lee:

others, not poor behaviors, all of that kind of stuff.

Lee:

They, they, there was a whole

Lee:

conversation about, with

Lee:

one person about

Lee:

assertiveness and for them assertiveness was, was

Lee:

almost.

Lee:

They

Lee:

disassociated it with, with having empathy and compassion and if you had that,

Lee:

you couldn't be assertive.

Lee:

And it was, it was fascinating,

Lee:

but also quite scary, I suppose.

Lee:

Think thinking back to the bigger question of is

Lee:

anything gonna change?

Lee:

What's the tipping

Lee:

point of

Lee:

change

Lee:

when

Lee:

we've, we've seen

Lee:

things through

Lee:

our lens, other people don't.

Lee:

And

Lee:

I'm not saying

Lee:

everyone should

Lee:

agree with our view of

Carrie-Ann:

well,

Lee:

should be, but kinder they

Lee:

do.

Lee:

But

Lee:

yeah, that

Lee:

perception of

Lee:

what is leadership and

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

The qualities of a leader, it is

Lee:

just, yeah,

Lee:

I mean, I, I could

Lee:

do a PhD on it, maybe.

Carrie-Ann:

Maybe you should.

Carrie-Ann:

I watched a couple of episodes of it after you'd started talking to me and

Carrie-Ann:

having some of this conversation with me.

Carrie-Ann:

And I, I do agree with you, but there was something for me around,

Carrie-Ann:

it's really interesting in the, the way that show was created.

Carrie-Ann:

In how some people's perceptions in, in one particular moment.

Carrie-Ann:

So, oh, I wanted that person assertive, which was basically I wanted

Carrie-Ann:

them to have a go at that person.

Carrie-Ann:

So behaviors that we don't like now, for me, that's not assertiveness.

Carrie-Ann:

But for them, that was, they haven't asserted themselves in that situation.

Carrie-Ann:

So I don't wanna bring them up here cuz they're not assertive

Carrie-Ann:

enough and that other person is.

Carrie-Ann:

But when the other person that they perceived to be assertive was then

Carrie-Ann:

in their team or gang or whatever you wanna call it, actually, they were

Carrie-Ann:

like, oh my God, they're such a bully.

Carrie-Ann:

And I was like, yeah, but you just witnessed them being a bully and

Carrie-Ann:

applauded them for being assertive.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think some of it's about, which I don't wanna say side, but you know, which.

Carrie-Ann:

How you are experiencing that.

Carrie-Ann:

Because if you're experiencing it as an observer, you might think it's

Carrie-Ann:

something different to experiencing it as somebody who it's being done to.

Carrie-Ann:

so I just found it did, it was fascinating and maybe I should go

Carrie-Ann:

back and binge watch it, or, but, but yeah, it just, I, I do get your point.

Carrie-Ann:

Like what appeared to perceptions of good leadership was probably

Carrie-Ann:

the opposite of nearly everything that we've talked about or.

Carrie-Ann:

They want people to be assertive, but what they've actually witnessed a bully.

Carrie-Ann:

So is there just a misunderstanding what some of those things

Carrie-Ann:

actually mean in reality?

Carrie-Ann:

I don't know,

Carrie-Ann:

but it is very

Lee:

we.

Lee:

Pulled together a

Lee:

lot of language things around how

Lee:

people.

Lee:

Perceive certain words to

Lee:

mean something

Lee:

can, and actually when you redefine

Lee:

it or reframe it, it can mean something

Lee:

yeah, I think

Lee:

if there's a second series,

Lee:

I

Lee:

almost

Lee:

see a spinoff

Lee:

show

Lee:

where we just like dissect it because there is

Lee:

so much in, in that.

Lee:

I'd

Lee:

love to know if anyone who's listening to this watched it as well

Lee:

and what, what people's views of it.

Lee:

Were, but it, it

Lee:

links also.

Lee:

We've had,

Lee:

we had an episode,

Lee:

in this

Lee:

series.

Lee:

About power and,

Lee:

and actually that threw up a lot of, for us at the time, it threw up a lot of

Lee:

questions and

Lee:

reflections and, and I think

Lee:

we both went

Lee:

into that

Lee:

recording of that episode with One Mindset and yeah, came away

Lee:

feeling quite differently about the

Lee:

topic, or certainly feeling

Lee:

more informed

Lee:

and, and had a broader view

Lee:

and, and a bit of a reframe.

Lee:

But the, it's really interesting

Lee:

conversations

Lee:

post that episode being published with people.

Lee:

and so

Lee:

I wanted to kind of throw a couple of these at you because one, well,

Lee:

I'll go for one of them was we, there was an interesting reflection

Lee:

from someone that power can be difficult to manage when it's

Lee:

someone

Lee:

who reports into you.

Lee:

And, and

Lee:

I reflected that our

Lee:

discussion was very

Lee:

much from a

Lee:

point of view

Lee:

as leader in a.

Lee:

Position of power and working with your peers and

Lee:

maybe people more

Lee:

senior than you, but actually we, we, we didn't

Lee:

focus

Lee:

on the power dynamics that can happen of people who maybe are in your

Lee:

team or more

Lee:

junior to you, and that

Lee:

can be a

Lee:

really tricky thing to manage.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh my.

Carrie-Ann:

That's a whole other episode waiting to happen, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

In the next series, cuz you're right, we didn't, we, we absolutely

Carrie-Ann:

approached that conversation around, you are the leader and how you manage

Carrie-Ann:

the power that you have as a leader and how that manifests for you.

Carrie-Ann:

But I'm sure we've all been in situations where the power

Carrie-Ann:

dynamic has been very different.

Carrie-Ann:

And we are, we are still leaders, but the people that we are leading

Carrie-Ann:

maybe, demonstrate their power in different ways and that become,

Carrie-Ann:

can become really challenging.

Carrie-Ann:

And I guess it is about how some of that and you're open to that

Carrie-Ann:

and think about, what that means impact for you, your team, for them.

Carrie-Ann:

And, and I think, yeah, that is, that is quite an interesting one actually, cuz

Carrie-Ann:

I also feel like I've worked with people who, you know, different, different

Carrie-Ann:

types of power dynamics might be you end up leading a team of people and

Carrie-Ann:

the person that's your deputy went for the job and all that kind of stuff.

Carrie-Ann:

That just throws up a different dynamic around.

Carrie-Ann:

Power, I think, or, they were aspirational and want your, or you,

Carrie-Ann:

you work with somebody who can't wait for you to go cuz they're desperate

Carrie-Ann:

to get your job, for example.

Carrie-Ann:

And how they operate in that space might be very different cuz they

Carrie-Ann:

might be one way with you and a different way with everyone else.

Carrie-Ann:

So I, I, yeah, I absolutely think there's, There's a lot there and I think per p

Carrie-Ann:

performance management and power is also quite an interesting one in terms of the

Carrie-Ann:

dynamics that that can you are feeling that there's capability issues or you

Carrie-Ann:

need to performance manage somebody, but actually maybe the HR process,

Carrie-Ann:

disempowers one person or the other,

Lee:

well,

Lee:

yeah,

Lee:

but

Lee:

that

Lee:

also,

Lee:

I've

Lee:

been in situations in the past where, The power of your peers.

Lee:

So

Lee:

going new into

Lee:

an organization.

Lee:

So

Lee:

I have the,

Lee:

the dynamic of individuals within my teams.

Lee:

Having certain types of power and not wanting to be

Lee:

aligned

Lee:

with the direction

Lee:

we were going organizationally, or, or

Lee:

as a team.

Lee:

And,

Lee:

and it did get

Lee:

to a point

Lee:

of needing to do performance management, but interestingly,

Lee:

they then power played with peers

Lee:

who didn't

Lee:

like me in my

Lee:

position either.

Lee:

And because they had that

Lee:

organizational memory power, the kind of informational power, the connectional

Lee:

power, All

Lee:

of that, they, they almost ganged up and created conflicts and issues that

Lee:

I just

Lee:

hadn't really considered.

Lee:

I

Lee:

went quite naively thinking, into the situation and didn't

Lee:

realize that there was

Lee:

such a strength of

Lee:

power in the

Lee:

network as, as I'd expected.

Carrie-Ann:

I, I definitely think there's another episode in this at.

Carrie-Ann:

Least in the next series, cuz that is the, we didn't look at it from that point all.

Carrie-Ann:

So even though we had a mindset shift from what we did talk about around

Carrie-Ann:

power, there's so much more that we haven't, we haven't touched on.

Lee:

and it's

Lee:

a hard, it's a hard

Lee:

one to manage when you've got, when you

Lee:

are in a situation with,

Lee:

with.

Lee:

People

Lee:

that you do

Lee:

manage because you

Lee:

trying to

Lee:

manage that situation could be positioned by them as you

Lee:

exerting your

Lee:

power in

Lee:

the

Lee:

wrong way.

Lee:

And we've, we've

Lee:

seen it with people who perhaps go down a

Lee:

performance management route

Lee:

and then

Lee:

come back with a counterclaim of, I'm being bullied or I'm being

Lee:

harassed and, and all of that.

Lee:

so there,

Lee:

there are things as, as

Lee:

leaders that

Lee:

we perhaps.

Lee:

Need to

Lee:

be mindful of it in that,

Lee:

perspective.

Carrie-Ann:

Wow.

Carrie-Ann:

I feel, I feel a bit like, Ooh, we've got, yeah, this, I'm not sure, this is where I

Carrie-Ann:

was expecting this conversation to go, but that's what's nice about the bonus app cuz

Carrie-Ann:

we kind of don't know where it's gonna go.

Lee:

No.

Lee:

And, and then the other

Lee:

conversation

Lee:

I had related to power, I

Lee:

say it was a conversation.

Lee:

It was, it was more of a debate,

Lee:

and

Lee:

I think

Lee:

there's possibly some semantics

Lee:

around wording,

Lee:

but

Lee:

someone,

Lee:

challenged me to say that, we would, we, we, when

Lee:

we did the episode,

Lee:

we talked

Lee:

about

Lee:

all the different realms

Lee:

of

Lee:

power and

Lee:

how, there are some powers that are better to utilize than others.

Lee:

And we very much stood against people abusing

Lee:

their power.

Lee:

And

Lee:

this person said to me, all great leaders

Lee:

abuse their power.

Lee:

If they don't, they're not great.

Lee:

And yeah.

Lee:

And so, yeah, that was my reaction.

Lee:

And we, we

Lee:

got into a

Lee:

quite

Lee:

hefty

Lee:

debate about it and

Lee:

I think it's probably

Lee:

perceptions

Lee:

of abuse

Lee:

of power.

Lee:

So I don't disagree.

Lee:

That you need as a leader to sometimes be a bit tricksy,

Lee:

sometimes play up

Lee:

parts of your power to your benefits that

Lee:

you know, you have that strategic mind you.

Lee:

Don't always do popular things.

Lee:

We've, we've

Lee:

talked about that before.

Lee:

It's not about making friends all

Lee:

the

Lee:

time and you're not gonna win everyone over and not everyone's

Lee:

gonna agree with how you do

Lee:

things.

Lee:

But I think when

Lee:

I talk about abuse of

Lee:

power, I'm talking

Lee:

about someone who

Lee:

is willfully and almost doesn't care about

Lee:

the misuse of

Lee:

their power, and

Lee:

they do it in

Lee:

a sustained way that harms

Lee:

other people.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, I, I think for me, when I think about abuse

Carrie-Ann:

of power, I'm, I'm with you.

Carrie-Ann:

There's something for me about the intent.

Carrie-Ann:

So what's the intent behind the decision that you're making or the

Carrie-Ann:

action that you're taking and the way that you are using your power.

Carrie-Ann:

And if you are, if you have sort of mal intent, then for me, that's know, if

Carrie-Ann:

you are, if you are using your power to.

Carrie-Ann:

Restrict people's voices or, disempower other people.

Carrie-Ann:

Then for me that feels like mal intent.

Carrie-Ann:

If you are using some of the different types of power that we talked about to,

Carrie-Ann:

further your organization standing with your stakeholders or develop a network

Carrie-Ann:

that's gonna be of benefit to more people in your organization, then I feel like

Carrie-Ann:

that's, I feel that's more like using your power rather than abusing your power.

Carrie-Ann:

So for me, I, I do feel like there a bit of a difference in the way I would

Carrie-Ann:

perceive that, cuz I think where we got to in the episode was we all have power.

Carrie-Ann:

There's lots of different types of power and it's within our

Carrie-Ann:

gift to choose how we use it.

Carrie-Ann:

So for me, we should be u we should be being, intentional about what we

Carrie-Ann:

do with the power that we hold and how we can use that to, to have an impact.

Carrie-Ann:

But I think if you were then being intentional to have a negative

Carrie-Ann:

impact on someone else, that feels to me like that's an abuse of that

Carrie-Ann:

power rather than using that power.

Lee:

Yes,

Lee:

agreed.

Lee:

So the

Lee:

counter-argument that that this person was having

Lee:

with me was if even if you

Lee:

look at people that we've.

Lee:

Would say we're potentially great leaders.

Lee:

Some of these are political, Tony Blair Obama, but there'll

Lee:

be others.

Lee:

they will have done things

Lee:

to, drown out other voices

Lee:

to position themselves in a more

Lee:

favorable light to achieve an end goal.

Lee:

They will have

Lee:

disadvantaged other people.

Lee:

In

Lee:

certain situations,

Lee:

they'll have

Lee:

teams that do that on their behalf.

Lee:

does that undermine their great

Lee:

leadership knowing that

Carrie-Ann:

this is a debate that, I guess it's about the consequences, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

The

Lee:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

that leaders take which they operate and whether the guys, it's just

Carrie-Ann:

gonna sound reallywe though, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

Whether the good that comes of that outweighs the negative.

Carrie-Ann:

And it's really hard in that political space to think to, to

Carrie-Ann:

be neutral about it, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

Because we'll all have political leanings one way or the other, where we'll go,

Carrie-Ann:

well, Obama doing this, I think is brilliant because by doing that, he's,

Carrie-Ann:

he's amplified and given a platform to someone else who needs it more.

Carrie-Ann:

But if it had been Boris Johnson, I'd have probably had a different take on it.

Carrie-Ann:

So, yeah, it is, it is so nuanced and really complex, isn't it?

Lee:

Yeah,

Lee:

so it was, it was an

Lee:

interesting, it was an interesting challenge.

Lee:

I think there's probably some semantics

Lee:

of word in there around around abuse.

Lee:

I wouldn't

Lee:

say

Lee:

someone who's.

Lee:

Boris

Lee:

Johnson's, abused

Lee:

his power.

Lee:

It was sustained, it was intentional,

Lee:

it was

Lee:

all of those things.

Lee:

I don't see him as a great leader, other people do cuz they

Lee:

voted for him

Carrie-Ann:

because we perceive good and bads in different ways

Carrie-Ann:

based on our own experiences and what we are trying to achieve.

Carrie-Ann:

And I, as we were thinking about doing this bonus episode,

Carrie-Ann:

I was like the own in your.

Carrie-Ann:

Shit.

Carrie-Ann:

And the power episodes really sort of landed when then things were hit in

Carrie-Ann:

the press, as you say, like just after.

Carrie-Ann:

And we had like Elon Musk, well, Elon Musk been a long standing and

Lee:

Dominic

Lee:

Rob.

Carrie-Ann:

Dominic Rob Plaid, Kuri, like with Adam Price.

Carrie-Ann:

And that's just funny how that's played out because originally,

Carrie-Ann:

Much, much of a Dominic Rob in terms of resignation letter.

Carrie-Ann:

Originally he wasn't gonna stand down and then kicked off and was like, this

Carrie-Ann:

is showing really poor leadership.

Carrie-Ann:

How can you still be there?

Carrie-Ann:

He dug his heels in.

Carrie-Ann:

Now he stood down and then his resignation letter said, oh, I

Carrie-Ann:

wanted to stand down, but me to stay.

Carrie-Ann:

I mean, what does that say about somebody's integrity?

Carrie-Ann:

And anyway, whatever.

Carrie-Ann:

So I feel like all these things sort of happened around that kind of owning.

Carrie-Ann:

Stuff and power episodes that then all sort of played out

Lee:

yeah.

Lee:

The

Lee:

dominant robin was, was fascinating because that

Lee:

use

Lee:

of,

Lee:

actually, the people

Lee:

were talking about

Lee:

his kind of

Lee:

coercive

Lee:

power that he was using and, and

Lee:

abusing,

Lee:

But his responsiveness,

Lee:

a didn't

Lee:

own his shit at all, but

Lee:

b, he, he very much

Lee:

did that questioning of people moaning, if he challenged them

Lee:

about the quality of their

Lee:

work

Lee:

and stuff, which, which

Lee:

almost plays back to the

Lee:

point we were talking about a bit

Lee:

earlier around

Lee:

how do you manage your, your teams and people who work for you if you

Lee:

have a disagreement

Lee:

and yeah, I, I just thought that

Lee:

whole situation was,

Lee:

The report, the,

Lee:

the people's reactions to the report, his

Lee:

lack of owning it and very much

Lee:

deflecting it as if I'm resigning on the

Lee:

principle

Lee:

of, I said I'd resign,

Lee:

but actually I don't, I, I think we're in a very

Lee:

dangerous place that

Lee:

I've been

Lee:

made to resign, is just really quite

Lee:

poor.

Carrie-Ann:

But then it's funny how, I was trying to think like the

Carrie-Ann:

good, is there some good But now I'm reflecting on what you've just told

Carrie-Ann:

me about the debate that you had.

Carrie-Ann:

And I'm like, maybe they're good examples because you only One side

Carrie-Ann:

of a situation, particularly stuff that plays out in the media and, and

Carrie-Ann:

I went in to a weird direction with my good example cuz I went for Edward

Carrie-Ann:

Who's the editor-in-chief of Vogue,

Carrie-Ann:

because I feel like we talked about, making your voice count and we've

Carrie-Ann:

talked about using your power for good intent and all of that kind of stuff.

Carrie-Ann:

And I feel like he has done a lot to provide a platform who might

Carrie-Ann:

not always in that arena, kind of get the, the spotlight, Sean,

Carrie-Ann:

on them in such a positive way.

Carrie-Ann:

the most recent examples around the that, Launched, but he's done

Carrie-Ann:

it with nhs, race and culture.

Carrie-Ann:

But now I'm like, well, I think that's good, but maybe there's other stuff

Carrie-Ann:

that he does that none of us get to see.

Carrie-Ann:

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann:

Like that maybe isn't so good, but, but he was my

Carrie-Ann:

kind of,

Lee:

what he's

Carrie-Ann:

exactly, exactly.

Carrie-Ann:

So there was a bit for me about, like, I, I kind of thought I've

Carrie-Ann:

gotta have somebody who I perceive to have done something good.

Carrie-Ann:

But now we've started recording this episode, I'm gonna question everything.

Lee:

but then, then almost that plays into the, the points

Lee:

that we've said before around.

Lee:

you need to get a variety of perspectives.

Lee:

You can't just go

Lee:

with your

Lee:

view

Lee:

of

Lee:

the world or be in

Lee:

your echo chamber of, you need that diversity of

Lee:

thought.

Lee:

You need that diversity of challenge, diversity of

Lee:

perspective, because that's even

Lee:

diversity in the

Lee:

information that you

Lee:

choose

Lee:

to have.

Lee:

Come to you as a leader, all of

Lee:

those things.

Lee:

And then, and then

Lee:

how you triangulate everything that you see and

Lee:

you hear

Lee:

and you touch, use

Lee:

all your senses,

Lee:

because that's the only way that really you can take informed and intentional

Lee:

steps.

Carrie-Ann:

Sorry, you're looking at me waiting for, sorry, I

Carrie-Ann:

thought you were gonna carry on.

Carrie-Ann:

I thought, I thought you were like part way free, but as, yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

As.

Carrie-Ann:

As always.

Carrie-Ann:

Well, not as always.

Carrie-Ann:

Cause sometimes we have the healthy debate cause we don't

Carrie-Ann:

quite align in our thinking.

Carrie-Ann:

But, but yeah, that di that diversity of opinion and thought

Carrie-Ann:

is really important, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann:

And I guess it's like, like not having that tunnel vision, not

Carrie-Ann:

just being so set in like a.

Carrie-Ann:

Not just in how you lead as a leader, but how you perceive

Carrie-Ann:

other things that are happening.

Carrie-Ann:

I think perception feels like the word of this episode actually, but you know

Carrie-Ann:

how you are perceiving other things that are happening around organization.

Carrie-Ann:

That's just gonna be your perception.

Carrie-Ann:

So how are you doing that check-in?

Carrie-Ann:

How are you getting the evidence that either does or doesn't back

Carrie-Ann:

up what your perception is and.

Carrie-Ann:

your personal completely someone else's, it's accepting that that's okay.

Carrie-Ann:

I think sometimes it's when you, you don't accept that and you carry on

Carrie-Ann:

regardless, without acknowledging what other people are experiencing at that

Carrie-Ann:

time, where you can get into sticky

Carrie-Ann:

Water, or tricky water.

Carrie-Ann:

I dunno.

Carrie-Ann:

I'm having some

Lee:

it's sticky you, you've my

Lee:

Leeisms

Carrie-Ann:

I know.

Carrie-Ann:

I didn't know it was contagious.

Lee:

murky waters

Carrie-Ann:

Murky.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

Let's go with murky

Lee:

or sticky

Lee:

stick in the

Lee:

mud.

Carrie-Ann:

It's not sticky water, is it?

Carrie-Ann:

That would just be gross.

Lee:

no.

Carrie-Ann:

Anyhow, sorry.

Carrie-Ann:

We digress.

Lee:

been,

Lee:

I've been to festivals where there's been sticky water and

Lee:

you, you don't wanna know

Lee:

what's been thrown

Lee:

around

Carrie-Ann:

don't wanna know why it's sticky.

Carrie-Ann:

Sorry.

Carrie-Ann:

We've digressed.

Carrie-Ann:

You're about to say something really enlightening and I've

Carrie-Ann:

just gone like sticky water.

Lee:

I was, I was only

Lee:

gonna say

Lee:

the other

Lee:

thing

Lee:

that, that was

Lee:

hit the news in, in lots of different angles, really, was the whole

Lee:

C b I,

Carrie-Ann:

Oh my goodness.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

How have we not mentioned that?

Lee:

And the resignation of the chief executive.

Lee:

And then

Lee:

also

Lee:

what I

Lee:

thought was interesting

Lee:

was a

Lee:

lot of the companies

Lee:

who withdrew their membership from the C cbi,

Lee:

and we've spoken before about how

Lee:

you know,

Lee:

organizations and leaders of organizations

Lee:

need to show that they're taking action, not just saying words.

Lee:

And that I do

Lee:

feel that that was a real

Lee:

step of, we're not just going to.

Lee:

Say

Lee:

we don't condone this.

Lee:

We're gonna take active measures to make sure something changes

Lee:

by withdrawing our support.

Lee:

and so it definitely showed that the

Lee:

strength and power

Lee:

of leaders taking action against things that aren't

Lee:

right.

Carrie-Ann:

And it maybe only took one do that before others then got on.

Carrie-Ann:

Do you know?

Carrie-Ann:

So it's like that almost, there is a bit of that strength in

Carrie-Ann:

numbers isn't there as well.

Carrie-Ann:

Like, but somebody has to be brave enough to be the first.

Carrie-Ann:

Somebody has to be brave enough and courageous enough to take that stand

Carrie-Ann:

and, doing that so publicly like

Lee:

I mean, you see, see

Lee:

that sometimes with celebrities and they do something wrong and brands

Lee:

will remove their endorsements

Lee:

or sponsorship deals, and that happens quite often.

Lee:

and, and obviously people come under pressure quite

Lee:

quickly if, if someone falls

Lee:

foul of

Lee:

what's right.

Lee:

but.

Lee:

Yeah, I hadn't quite, I've never

Lee:

really seen it in this,

Lee:

where, where,

Lee:

where

Lee:

the business side of things are stepping

Lee:

up and, and

Lee:

speaking

Lee:

out against another

Lee:

business

Lee:

organization.

Lee:

It, it did

Lee:

feel

Lee:

like it was a real shift in, in.

Lee:

Yeah, approach and thinking.

Lee:

I

Lee:

also thought the whole resignation of the chief exec

Lee:

was, was interesting and he did

Lee:

some media

Lee:

interviews after he resigned.

Lee:

And some of

Lee:

the

Lee:

things that he was saying trying to justify was, yeah, it was, it was an

Lee:

interest in,

Lee:

lesson in

Lee:

how

Lee:

personable you should be,

Lee:

how.

Lee:

How

Lee:

much you want to be

Lee:

part of the

Lee:

team when you are a lead out.

Lee:

All of that kind of

Lee:

stuff

Lee:

seemed

Lee:

to come out cuz he was DMing people on social media

Lee:

and they all felt

Lee:

a bit uncomfortable.

Lee:

So it was, yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

Oh, I, I feel icky now you've said that and I, and

Carrie-Ann:

there is something for me about those boundaries, isn't there?

Carrie-Ann:

There's that, it, it probably is a very fine line between creating a, a culture

Carrie-Ann:

or a team that feels team spirited and supports each other and all of that

Carrie-Ann:

stuff, versus just overstepping the boundaries around how you interact and.

Carrie-Ann:

And kind of deal And again, it's about intent, isn't it as well?

Carrie-Ann:

It's like you are doing that for your own benefit.

Carrie-Ann:

You're not considering the impact it has on the other person, so,

Lee:

So yes, there's been quite a lot of

Lee:

interesting things that definitely felt aligned to the stuff that we

Lee:

were talking about this series.

Lee:

Did we jinx it?

Lee:

I don't know.

Lee:

It's, it's hard to,

Carrie-Ann:

I know there were a couple of times weren't there, where we were

Carrie-Ann:

like, oh, why couldn't that have happened the week we were recording this episode?

Carrie-Ann:

Cause we've been such a good example, but we've got the opportunity to talk

Carrie-Ann:

about them through this bonus episode.

Carrie-Ann:

So I don't feel quite as hard done by now.

Lee:

I want to almost wrap up at the end

Lee:

of this

Lee:

episode by going back to where we started,

Lee:

which was

Lee:

this sense of,

Lee:

we've done

Lee:

a lot of talking, we've done a lot

Lee:

of talking today about things that frustrate us,

Lee:

that

Lee:

things

Lee:

that,

Lee:

perhaps

Lee:

aren't

Lee:

right in the leadership world, but there's a

Lee:

sense of what can we do.

Lee:

And I suppose

Lee:

I want to use

Lee:

our

Lee:

hiatus period before we come back to really start to get to

Lee:

grips with being more practical

Lee:

in the sense of what can be changed, how can it be challenged?

Lee:

How can we use

Lee:

this platform

Lee:

as a way to

Lee:

help

Lee:

people

Lee:

maybe

Lee:

verbalize their support or to flag stuff that needs to change or to

Lee:

show

Lee:

how things can be

Lee:

different.

Lee:

Yeah, I don't want us to

Lee:

come back in for

Lee:

season

Lee:

four and just

Lee:

feel like we're talking and talking

Lee:

again.

Lee:

As much as I

Lee:

love to talk to you.

Carrie-Ann:

And I think we, yeah, I think for me it's about what, what practical

Carrie-Ann:

things can we be offering to people by way of changing their mindset, doing something

Carrie-Ann:

differently as a leader, expanding their, thinking around leadership, maybe doing.

Carrie-Ann:

Doing something differently, helping them to find the courage or the confidence to

Carrie-Ann:

challenge or act in a dif not, I don't wanna say act in a different way cause

Carrie-Ann:

I want people to not be who they are.

Carrie-Ann:

Cause that's the whole point of what we talk about.

Carrie-Ann:

It's like, be yourself, but maybe to, to speak out or to challenge poor behaviors.

Carrie-Ann:

So we've started to shift into that space in some of our CK community.

Carrie-Ann:

I think we've put prompt prompts in some of the, not some of

Carrie-Ann:

the, in all of the, kind of.

Carrie-Ann:

After thoughts of each episode that we've been sharing with people.

Carrie-Ann:

And I know we've got other, other sort of practical things we want to put in

Carrie-Ann:

place to, to try and support leaders, but it's hard cuz I, I also reflect

Carrie-Ann:

on the fact that it feels like this is quite a busy space to operate in.

Carrie-Ann:

And there's lots of, as you say, lots of thoughts about leadership and how you

Carrie-Ann:

should or shouldn't do leadership, in.

Carrie-Ann:

Lots of, yeah, lots of thought leaders, lots of opinion pieces, but how do

Carrie-Ann:

we move it to the next somebody?

Carrie-Ann:

We just said, sometimes it just takes one person to take action.

Carrie-Ann:

How do we, how do we move it to that I'm not sure I quite know

Lee:

No.

Lee:

No.

Lee:

So answers

Lee:

on a

Lee:

postcard or a tweet

Lee:

or Instagram

Lee:

DM

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, wherever.

Carrie-Ann:

However you wanna, yeah.

Carrie-Ann:

However you wanna get in touch with us.

Carrie-Ann:

But we have talked with some of our community, haven't we, about what would

Carrie-Ann:

be beneficial for them in the future in terms of what value we can add.

Carrie-Ann:

And some of that was about those support from other people and, connect

Carrie-Ann:

with people who are like-minded.

Carrie-Ann:

And maybe have some of those discussions and get some of that, kind of insight from

Carrie-Ann:

other people to consider then how they might, might approach different, subjects.

Carrie-Ann:

So I think there is a will out there from some of our, our early blossoming

Carrie-Ann:

community, about other things that we could do outside of the podcast that, that

Carrie-Ann:

people feel would help them leadership

Lee:

Great.

Lee:

So

Lee:

all the details

Lee:

if you wanna get involved, in

Lee:

anything that we've talked about.

Lee:

But also

Lee:

if you've

Lee:

got, if

Lee:

you've got the idea that you think's gonna

Lee:

start to change

Lee:

things, let us know.

Lee:

Go to, how

Lee:

say the

Lee:

lead.com.

Lee:

You'll get all the links to all the various things

Lee:

we've mentioned.

Lee:

You'll

Lee:

get all the back

Lee:

episodes of this series

Lee:

out in the past.

Lee:

Two series as well.

Lee:

we'll be back.

Lee:

We're

Lee:

gonna have a little summer break now.

Lee:

We'll be back in, end of August, early September, I

Lee:

think, isn't it

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah, that's the

Lee:

series.

Lee:

So if you've got any

Lee:

suggestions or ideas

Lee:

for

Lee:

topics you'd

Lee:

like

Lee:

us to cover,

Lee:

Also send

Lee:

us your good and bad examples of leadership in action.

Lee:

We would love to

Lee:

see that.

Lee:

We'd love

Lee:

to kind of add to our case

Lee:

studies of

Lee:

things that are happening

Lee:

in, in the real world, as it

Lee:

were.

Lee:

yeah.

Lee:

Anything else?

Carrie-Ann:

and a plug to get over on the sub community because as you said, between

Carrie-Ann:

series we wanna actually do some stuff.

Carrie-Ann:

So there'll be things launching in there by way of conversations,

Carrie-Ann:

opportunities to, get involved with other people who are part of the

Carrie-Ann:

community and, ask us anything as well.

Carrie-Ann:

So,

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Yeah.

Lee:

Oh yeah.

Lee:

We've

Lee:

got the Ask us Anything

Lee:

sessions that we're gonna do just for our

Lee:

sub community.

Lee:

the

Lee:

book club, we are working on what the first

Lee:

book is gonna be,

Lee:

so, if you want a

Lee:

summer reading list or something to,

Lee:

to get involved

Lee:

in so

Lee:

you can come back in the

Lee:

autumn with

Lee:

a renewed

Lee:

energy.

Lee:

yeah, get

Lee:

involved www.haslead.com.

Lee:

So that's it, I think.

Lee:

I think

Lee:

that's our little popping,

Carrie-Ann:

A little pop in.

Carrie-Ann:

A little pop in.

Carrie-Ann:

Yeah.

Lee:

later.

Carrie-Ann:

Nothing's ever short with us.

Carrie-Ann:

Nothing's ever quick.

Carrie-Ann:

We're like, right.

Carrie-Ann:

No, actually, now you've mentioned that.

Carrie-Ann:

Let's talk about something else.

Lee:

I'm sure

Lee:

as

Lee:

soon as that we stop

Lee:

recording this, other things that we should have actually discussed today

Lee:

will, will come

Lee:

to mind.

Lee:

But who knows, we may or

Lee:

may not pop up

Lee:

for another little cheeky bonus at

Lee:

some point.

Lee:

if, if only,

Lee:

just so that we can socialize and

Carrie-Ann:

Some

Lee:

touch with each

Lee:

other.

Lee:

Right.

Lee:

Until then, enjoy your summer.

Lee:

Take care.

Lee:

Bye.

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About the Podcast

How to Take the Lead
Unfiltered conversations for the modern leader
How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every week we'll be exploring a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith (from www.sundayskies.com) and Carrie-Ann Wade (from www.cats-pajamas.co.uk) as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

New episodes are released every Thursday. To get involved, share your thoughts and stories or to ask questions visit www.howtotakethelead.com or DM us via instagram, LinkedIn or twitter.
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About your hosts

Lee Griffith

Profile picture for Lee Griffith
Lee Griffith is an executive coach and leadership communications strategist who works with CEOs and senior leaders to maximise their impact, which means helping them to increase operational effectiveness, improve staff engagement and build a reputation based on high-performance and a great culture.

A former award-winning communications and engagement director with over 20 years of experience, Lee has supported everything from major incidents to reconfigurations, turnarounds and transformations. She specialises in helping leaders build their authority and influence to deliver their organisation’s vision and strategy.

As well as being one part of the How to Take the Lead collaborative, Lee also hosts 'Leaders with impact', a podcast sharing the stories and strategies of success from those who have done it their own way.

Find out more via www.sundayskies.com.

Carrie-Ann Wade

Profile picture for Carrie-Ann Wade
Carrie-Ann Wade is a communications director in the NHS with over 20 years of communications and marketing experience. She is also founder of Cat’s Pajamas Communications which focuses on mentoring communications professionals to grow and thrive in their careers.

She has most recently been a finalist in the inaugural Comms Hero Fearless Trailblazer award and shortlisted in the National Facilitation Awards 2023. She was named one of F:entrepreneur's #ialso100 2020 top female entrepreneurs and business leaders, and Cat’s Pajamas has been recognised in Small Business Saturday's UK #SmallBiz100, as a business with impact.

She is one part of the How to Take the Lead collaborative, and cohost of a podcast with the same name, exploring the challenges and opportunities of modern day leadership. Carrie-Ann also hosts ‘Behind The Bob, Diary of a Comms Director’, a podcast supporting aspiring communications leaders.

Find out more via www.cats-pajamas.co.uk