Identifying future leaders

Speaker: 00:00:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, it was meant it wasn't meant to be a

Speaker: 00:00:03

sign. I don't know what that was an exhale of something.

Speaker: 00:00:06

Definitely not a sign because I'm excited about future

Speaker: 00:00:09

leaders. Okay. So that's what I wanted to talk about today. So

Speaker: 00:00:12

hopefully that's, you're okay talking about that today. Is

Speaker: 00:00:16

that so my line of questioning is gonna.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:19

I'll give it my best shot,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: give it your best shot,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:22

you're never an expert in everything. Welcome to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:26

how to take the leap, the podcast where we challenge the

Lee Griffith: 00:00:28

myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader today, and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:31

help you to succeed in post without compromise. I'm Lee

Lee Griffith: 00:00:35

Griffith.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I'm Carrie-Anne Wade. And together

Lee Griffith: 00:00:37

we will be your guides question everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith: 00:00:40

about leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:44

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role. Visit

Lee Griffith: 00:00:47

house,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:47

take the lead.com For show notes, past episodes

Lee Griffith: 00:00:50

and join our community enjoy

Lee Griffith: 00:00:51

Carrie-Ann Wade: this episode

Lee Griffith: 00:01:01

Hello, everyone, welcome. Wave from Lee. How are you, Lee?

Lee Griffith: 00:01:06

I'm good. I'm good. I'm doing this I'm not

Lee Griffith: 00:01:09

going to be I felt like I've been out practice the last

Lee Griffith: 00:01:11

couple of episodes in slightly having some existential crisis

Lee Griffith: 00:01:16

within as we've talked. This

Lee Griffith: 00:01:18

Carrie-Ann Wade: sounds terrible, but you're on it now

Lee Griffith: 00:01:20

you've really focused you're ready for it. I felt a bit rusty

Lee Griffith: 00:01:24

myself. I've got to be honest. And and like, don't know why.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:27

Because we're just having a chat. Like we always do. We just

Lee Griffith: 00:01:30

happen to be recording it for the podcast. So I'm not really

Lee Griffith: 00:01:33

sure what's going on there. We're just out of practice. It's

Lee Griffith: 00:01:36

because we've done our own and we've been talking to ourselves

Lee Griffith: 00:01:40

and other people and we've not not got back in the swing yet of

Lee Griffith: 00:01:43

talking to each other. But hopefully we don't sound too

Lee Griffith: 00:01:46

rusty and out of practice to the listeners. I've got to make a

Lee Griffith: 00:01:50

disclaimer, I have a neighbor who is appears to be doing

Lee Griffith: 00:01:56

something with wood and there's a I was about to say there's a

Lee Griffith: 00:02:00

sort of random on and off. Buzzing high pitched buzzing

Lee Griffith: 00:02:05

sound that's happening. So if you can hear that listeners, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:02:08

very sorry. It's my neighbor's wood has nothing to do with me.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:12

And but I just thought I'd apologize for that in case it's

Lee Griffith: 00:02:15

off put in for anybody and particularly off putting for you

Lee Griffith: 00:02:18

Lee. So just throwing it out there. So

Lee Griffith: 00:02:20

you know, it's very Divine Comedy there.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: I guess about the woodshed. Something's

Lee Griffith: 00:02:25

happening out in the woodshed

Lee Griffith: 00:02:27

getting number 90 is nice reference there. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:30

for any

Lee Griffith: 00:02:31

Carrie-Ann Wade: listeners get that reference, please do let us

Lee Griffith: 00:02:33

know on the socials or drop us an email. And And of course do

Lee Griffith: 00:02:38

do use all of those methods and more to get in touch with us

Lee Griffith: 00:02:41

because we'd love to hear what you're thinking of this series

Lee Griffith: 00:02:45

this episode. If there's stuff you want us to talk about into

Lee Griffith: 00:02:48

the future, you can get in touch via our socials, you can drop us

Lee Griffith: 00:02:51

an email, you can even engage with us over in our substack

Lee Griffith: 00:02:54

community, which is very exciting. And yeah, I don't know

Lee Griffith: 00:02:58

why I feel I take a lot of comfort from the substack

Lee Griffith: 00:03:01

community. So I'm hoping some of our listeners will join us over

Lee Griffith: 00:03:05

there as we go through this series. And of course, we would

Lee Griffith: 00:03:09

love it if you if you're watching on YouTube. Or if

Lee Griffith: 00:03:12

you're listening on your favorite podcast platform. If

Lee Griffith: 00:03:15

you could do whatever you do to make sure these episodes are

Lee Griffith: 00:03:19

always first and foremost dropping in every week when they

Lee Griffith: 00:03:21

land. So you don't miss any. And we'd also love a rating or

Lee Griffith: 00:03:25

review. So that sounds like enough at this point to keep

Lee Griffith: 00:03:28

people busy

Lee Griffith: 00:03:30

yet have you mentioned youtube or on YouTube

Lee Griffith: 00:03:32

or new churches if you want. Although I have to say I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:03:36

know if it's my image of you, but I think you might smudge

Lee Griffith: 00:03:38

your lips. Start Wow. Bottom the other side of the side. There we

Lee Griffith: 00:03:44

go. That's bad. I see. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:48

Carrie-Ann Wade: I didn't tell you in whatever episode it was

Lee Griffith: 00:03:50

where you have bad hair because I didn't even notice. Just my

Lee Griffith: 00:03:53

lipstick. Say thank you. That's the sign of a of a true friend

Lee Griffith: 00:03:57

there the whole lipstick on your teeth thing. Thank you. So

Lee Griffith: 00:04:01

that's improved things for our YouTube viewers. podcast

Lee Griffith: 00:04:05

listeners don't care at all. So on that note, shall we crack on

Lee Griffith: 00:04:09

and get on into the meat of this episode, which I wanted us to

Lee Griffith: 00:04:15

talk about future leaders. And when I say you

Lee Griffith: 00:04:19

said that was such a sigh. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:04:24

Carrie-Ann Wade: It was meant it wasn't meant to be aside it know

Lee Griffith: 00:04:26

what that was an exhale of something. Definitely not aside

Lee Griffith: 00:04:30

because I'm excited about future leaders. Okay. We have talked

Lee Griffith: 00:04:34

before about leadership development in lots of different

Lee Griffith: 00:04:37

forms throughout how to take the lead. And we even had a whole

Lee Griffith: 00:04:41

episode on what organizations can do to help to develop

Lee Griffith: 00:04:45

leaders and of course, what leaders can do to do that. But I

Lee Griffith: 00:04:50

didn't think we'd really focused on actually how you start to

Lee Griffith: 00:04:53

identify leaders for the future. And that's something that I

Lee Griffith: 00:04:57

loved in particularly in their communications base, but also

Lee Griffith: 00:05:01

just a bit about like, how do you build that pipeline or

Lee Griffith: 00:05:05

succession plan or whatever you want to call it in terms of kind

Lee Griffith: 00:05:09

of future leaders and leadership for your organization. So that's

Lee Griffith: 00:05:13

what I wanted to talk about today. So hopefully, that's,

Lee Griffith: 00:05:16

you're okay talking about that today. Because that's where my

Lee Griffith: 00:05:19

line of questioning is gonna go.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:21

I'll give it my best shot, give it your best

Lee Griffith: 00:05:23

shot, you're never an expert in everything. So we'll get we'll

Lee Griffith: 00:05:29

get an answer for it's the best.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:32

Carrie-Ann Wade: You are, you are the go to guru on all

Lee Griffith: 00:05:34

things. Leadership, please. So look at the face. Again,

Lee Griffith: 00:05:38

listeners can't see that face. But viewers can on YouTube. So

Lee Griffith: 00:05:43

I'm just gonna get straight in there to say, does this all

Lee Griffith: 00:05:46

start from the point of recruitment? So are we

Lee Griffith: 00:05:50

considering when we are in our leadership positions, how we are

Lee Griffith: 00:05:54

actually recruiting leaders for the future, and that might mean

Lee Griffith: 00:05:58

us personally. But it might mean our organizations as well. And

Lee Griffith: 00:06:02

we've had conversations this series about not every leader is

Lee Griffith: 00:06:06

in a hierarchical position of leadership. But that doesn't

Lee Griffith: 00:06:10

mean that they don't have potential to be leaders in your

Lee Griffith: 00:06:12

organization. So I would just be interested to know your views on

Lee Griffith: 00:06:17

kind of, are we recruiting in the right way to pick out our

Lee Griffith: 00:06:21

leaders of the future?

Lee Griffith: 00:06:25

So there's two different ways. There's almost

Lee Griffith: 00:06:28

two questions in that isn't there? There's the IS, IS

Lee Griffith: 00:06:32

recruitment, how we find our future leaders? And then the

Lee Griffith: 00:06:36

other question is, are we recruiting in the right way to

Lee Griffith: 00:06:39

find our future leaders? So I'll kind of try and tackle both if,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:43

if I may?

Lee Griffith: 00:06:45

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, you may I give you permission. That was

Lee Griffith: 00:06:49

super polite of you. Just roll straight on in there haven't

Lee Griffith: 00:06:53

whatever you think.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:55

So I think recruitment is part of it.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:59

Because Absolutely, organizationally, you need to

Lee Griffith: 00:07:04

make sure you've got the right people serving in your

Lee Griffith: 00:07:06

organization to begin with. But whether you're you recruit with

Lee Griffith: 00:07:09

the mindset of is this a future leader is the questionable bit.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:13

So I think you need to recruit the right type of people for

Lee Griffith: 00:07:16

your organization, where you are and where you want to get to in

Lee Griffith: 00:07:18

the future. But aside from that, there is the question around

Lee Griffith: 00:07:22

recruiting leaders. If I could park that bit for a second, I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:26

also want to caveat that I don't think the focus of identifying

Lee Griffith: 00:07:32

future leaders can just be to look from the outside. And a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:07:37

of people do tend to and I'm certainly guilty of this in the

Lee Griffith: 00:07:42

past that short term, thinking we've got a gap we need to feel

Lee Griffith: 00:07:46

rather than invest in

Lee Griffith: 00:07:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: it that will come on shore.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:53

So I think there's a lot of people that will think,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:55

oh, we need to recruit leaders from the outside and bring

Lee Griffith: 00:08:01

something new and fresh in from the outside. And so I think it's

Lee Griffith: 00:08:06

a really nuance, as all of these conversations around leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:08:10

are is very nuanced. You need the right person for the role,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:14

and for the organization. And they need to be aligned with

Lee Griffith: 00:08:18

what the organization is aspiring to be able to do. But

Lee Griffith: 00:08:23

we know that being a leader isn't the as we said in the last

Lee Griffith: 00:08:28

episode is not a one size fits all, affair. It's you know, you

Lee Griffith: 00:08:33

as a leader, you've got your own strategy and your own approach.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:36

And then the organization and the that leadership team, the

Lee Griffith: 00:08:41

board or whoever are going to have who they are looking for.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:43

And it's about how how do you align those two things? And so I

Lee Griffith: 00:08:48

think, some points, often when you're recruiting, you're

Lee Griffith: 00:08:54

recruiting for the here and now, you're not necessarily always

Lee Griffith: 00:08:58

thinking about the longer term goal. Have I answered that

Lee Griffith: 00:09:01

question? Yeah, I

Lee Griffith: 00:09:02

Carrie-Ann Wade: think you have answered that question. They and

Lee Griffith: 00:09:04

I guess I would just build on that bit. Because it's

Lee Griffith: 00:09:07

conversation I've had with a couple of people over on the

Lee Griffith: 00:09:10

other podcast, if I may say that, around that kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:09:15

spotting future talent, I guess, and how, how do you recruit for

Lee Griffith: 00:09:20

that, as you say, because you've got a specific role that you

Lee Griffith: 00:09:23

need to fill in your team or organization, and that's what

Lee Griffith: 00:09:25

you're recruiting for. And we've had some quite interesting

Lee Griffith: 00:09:29

conversations in that space about actually how much of it is

Lee Griffith: 00:09:33

about sort of technical skill and expertise and how much of it

Lee Griffith: 00:09:38

about a bit is about getting a good fit somebody with the right

Lee Griffith: 00:09:42

attitude, the right values, and you can teach them the technical

Lee Griffith: 00:09:45

skill, but maybe you actually might be looking to change your

Lee Griffith: 00:09:49

recruitment focus a bit and to recruit for somebody who, you

Lee Griffith: 00:09:54

know, you can see is going places and it's got that

Lee Griffith: 00:09:56

appetite and that that right attitude and those right values

Lee Griffith: 00:10:00

So I guess a lot of it also is down to kind of the

Lee Griffith: 00:10:04

personalities as part of that recruitment exercise in terms of

Lee Griffith: 00:10:07

what they're looking for, and whether you are all aligned with

Lee Griffith: 00:10:10

your thinking there. But you also, I guess, need some of that

Lee Griffith: 00:10:13

challenge, because equally, you don't want to end up recruiting

Lee Griffith: 00:10:16

a person that you think it's got loads of potential for the

Lee Griffith: 00:10:19

future, but then can't actually do the job that you need them to

Lee Griffith: 00:10:21

do in the right now. So there is always that balance to try and

Lee Griffith: 00:10:25

strike isn't there? So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:10:27

that that also begs the bigger question around

Lee Griffith: 00:10:31

recruitment practice, and, and where responsibility for

Lee Griffith: 00:10:34

recruitment sets. And I had a really interesting conversation

Lee Griffith: 00:10:37

with a chief executive who is basically saying, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:40

operational managers are good at doing operational management

Lee Griffith: 00:10:44

things and not necessarily they're good at recruiting that

Lee Griffith: 00:10:47

isn't recruiting for values recruiting for all of those

Lee Griffith: 00:10:51

other skills, without they'll be better at recruiting for their

Lee Griffith: 00:10:54

areas of expertise. And don't fit organizations necessarily

Lee Griffith: 00:10:58

think of that matrix of we need skills sometimes. But we need,

Lee Griffith: 00:11:03

what's the fit? Or the kind of what's the rest of the thing

Lee Griffith: 00:11:07

that this person will bring to this organization? Yeah. So

Lee Griffith: 00:11:10

there's a whole other debate, I think about recruitment

Lee Griffith: 00:11:13

practice. Absolutely.

Lee Griffith: 00:11:14

Carrie-Ann Wade: It could potentially be a whole other

Lee Griffith: 00:11:16

episode could net because as you were saying that I was just

Lee Griffith: 00:11:18

thinking about having the opposite experience as well,

Lee Griffith: 00:11:20

where actually the recruitment processes and the way in which

Lee Griffith: 00:11:24

an organization wants you to manage the recruitment of

Lee Griffith: 00:11:27

somebody can sometimes feel quite stifling, because it's

Lee Griffith: 00:11:30

based on scoring people based on their examples they give around

Lee Griffith: 00:11:35

their technical ability, for example, rather than being more

Lee Griffith: 00:11:39

values based, or you being able to have that conversation about,

Lee Griffith: 00:11:42

okay, they might not have scored the highest and being able to

Lee Griffith: 00:11:45

demonstrate they can do that very practical task, but

Lee Griffith: 00:11:48

actually, in terms of fit for the team and organization. They

Lee Griffith: 00:11:51

seem perfect. So I think there's there is lots isn't there around

Lee Griffith: 00:11:55

that sort of recruitment practice them that needs to be

Lee Griffith: 00:11:58

explored in that sense. So and So yes, thank you. I did think

Lee Griffith: 00:12:02

that you answered that question there. In response to the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:04

question you asked me when I went off on a bit of a tangent,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:07

but um, you've touched on this already, in your sort of caveat

Lee Griffith: 00:12:13

to responding to that, that first topic around recruiting

Lee Griffith: 00:12:16

leaders for the future, which is around, not always looking to

Lee Griffith: 00:12:21

the outside to kind of do that and bringing in fresh. So my

Lee Griffith: 00:12:26

approach when I've built teams, and I've recruited is that I

Lee Griffith: 00:12:30

don't always just focus on, you know, recruiting the right

Lee Griffith: 00:12:33

person, as in the role as my deputy, for example, and how I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:12:37

supporting that person in that role to grow. But I'm always got

Lee Griffith: 00:12:42

an eye on that broader team. So for example, if someone was

Lee Griffith: 00:12:45

promoted, in my team or externally to my team, are there

Lee Griffith: 00:12:50

people in the team who are ready to step up? Have we prepared

Lee Griffith: 00:12:54

people to take on that next step in their career or in their

Lee Griffith: 00:12:58

leadership journey internally? And I guess, I wonder, to some

Lee Griffith: 00:13:03

extent, whether that's easier to do in the context of a

Lee Griffith: 00:13:06

professional specialism so mine would be communications rather

Lee Griffith: 00:13:10

than that broader context of perhaps an organization's

Lee Griffith: 00:13:13

leadership team. But I would just be interested in your views

Lee Griffith: 00:13:17

about how we can go about building that sort of internal

Lee Griffith: 00:13:21

pipeline of leaders who might be ready to step up into the

Lee Griffith: 00:13:25

future.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:27

I think that point you make around Is it easier? If

Lee Griffith: 00:13:31

you work in a specialist area, I mean, organizations are made up

Lee Griffith: 00:13:34

of specialist functions. So every every pipeline is coming

Lee Griffith: 00:13:38

from a specialist. And we always talk about the fact that you

Lee Griffith: 00:13:42

kind of funnel up, don't you through your area of expertise.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:45

And I think this then demonstrates where the gap is,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:50

which is that if we invested more in the broader skills, and

Lee Griffith: 00:13:56

the development of those broader leadership skills, the softer

Lee Griffith: 00:14:01

skills, whatever you might want to call them, if that's what we

Lee Griffith: 00:14:05

focus on deliver on, it doesn't really matter whether you are

Lee Griffith: 00:14:08

nurturing them within your specialist pipeline, you're

Lee Griffith: 00:14:11

getting them ready for the organization, the organizational

Lee Griffith: 00:14:14

preparedness comes with it that doesn't it and so I think

Lee Griffith: 00:14:17

organizations would have more ready made leaders that are well

Lee Griffith: 00:14:23

rounded in the way they need them to be. If they thought at

Lee Griffith: 00:14:27

an earlier stage about how do I support specialisms to, to

Lee Griffith: 00:14:31

nurture specialist and generalist in one. So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:14:36

yeah, I think that's an interesting thing around

Lee Griffith: 00:14:41

pipelines, I suppose the other issue is this hierarchical

Lee Griffith: 00:14:49

nature of organizations and when you think of a pipeline, you are

Lee Griffith: 00:14:55

just reinforcing I suppose that hierarchical nature because I

Lee Griffith: 00:15:00

suppose when many people are recruiting, they are looking at

Lee Griffith: 00:15:06

the context and the nature of the type of leader that is

Lee Griffith: 00:15:10

needed for that particular thing, usually within their team

Lee Griffith: 00:15:14

and area. And even when you talk about the broader team, you're

Lee Griffith: 00:15:18

still talking about it in the context of the broader team of

Lee Griffith: 00:15:21

communicators, rather than the broader team of

Lee Griffith: 00:15:27

Carrie-Ann Wade: no guessing the question it was, is it easier to

Lee Griffith: 00:15:30

think about it in a sense, rather than as an an

Lee Griffith: 00:15:33

organizational leadership team? So I guess there's two elements

Lee Griffith: 00:15:36

to that question, isn't there? Because actually, when you're

Lee Griffith: 00:15:39

part of a broader organizational leadership team, how are you

Lee Griffith: 00:15:44

thinking about how you're growing and developing people to

Lee Griffith: 00:15:47

step into that space, but I guess the natural way of leaders

Lee Griffith: 00:15:51

stepping into spaces because someone moves on and they get a

Lee Griffith: 00:15:53

promotion. So even if you're being promoted beyond your

Lee Griffith: 00:15:56

specialism because there's something that's seen in you

Lee Griffith: 00:16:00

that you fit into a role that would be really good in that

Lee Griffith: 00:16:02

leadership team space, that actually that's only happening

Lee Griffith: 00:16:05

because of that hierarchical structure still, rather than it

Lee Griffith: 00:16:08

being Yeah, more, more broad brush, I suppose. I

Lee Griffith: 00:16:13

think there's also a snobbery, though, as well,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:15

about progression in fields and areas. And as much as we talk

Lee Griffith: 00:16:23

about border skills and preparing people for border

Lee Griffith: 00:16:25

organization, we do look down and and I know, we've done this

Lee Griffith: 00:16:31

in the kind of communications field when I was working in in

Lee Griffith: 00:16:35

corporate. I know other professionals do this as well,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:38

if someone comes in from outside, there's the oh, they

Lee Griffith: 00:16:43

don't have the necessary skills and experience. So it's like we

Lee Griffith: 00:16:46

can't have our cake and eat it. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:16:49

Carrie-Ann Wade: So how do we how do we challenge people in

Lee Griffith: 00:16:52

that space, I guess is the next follow on from that in terms of

Lee Griffith: 00:16:55

you can't have your cake and eat it. So you're wanting to think

Lee Griffith: 00:16:59

about supporting people in your own organization to develop so

Lee Griffith: 00:17:04

that there are opportunities that open up to them. But same

Lee Griffith: 00:17:08

time, as you've said, you know, sometimes that can feel

Lee Griffith: 00:17:12

challenging and can and feels like it's only about stepping up

Lee Griffith: 00:17:15

into the next level of role that's available to you. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:17:20

guess one of the things I was thinking about is we've talked

Lee Griffith: 00:17:23

in an episode around leadership development, and what

Lee Griffith: 00:17:26

organizations can do to develop leaders. And again, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:17:29

organizations probably offer quite a lot to people from we

Lee Griffith: 00:17:34

talk about this a lot as well. Management versus leadership. My

Lee Griffith: 00:17:38

experience for organizations is they often offer a lot of

Lee Griffith: 00:17:41

management, development opportunities, and training and

Lee Griffith: 00:17:44

all of that kind of stuff quite early on in people's careers. So

Lee Griffith: 00:17:48

people can start to get a sense for what it might be like to be

Lee Griffith: 00:17:52

a manager. But actually, anything that's that's happened

Lee Griffith: 00:17:55

in the leadership space, in my experience has always been for

Lee Griffith: 00:17:58

people who are already at a certain level of leadership. So

Lee Griffith: 00:18:01

there's that mismatch there as well isn't there that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:18:03

kind of investing in, in identifying managers of the

Lee Griffith: 00:18:07

future, but maybe not giving people the opportunity to

Lee Griffith: 00:18:09

understand more about what it would mean to be developed as a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:13

leader? So yeah, I guess Sorry, I've gotten I've answered my own

Lee Griffith: 00:18:16

question, when I was asking you the question, no, but I guess

Lee Griffith: 00:18:19

it's about, you know, how do we get that balance and start to

Lee Griffith: 00:18:22

think about how we grow in our own and supporting and

Lee Griffith: 00:18:25

developing people in our organizations. But

Lee Griffith: 00:18:28

that's got to be role modeled from the top. So

Lee Griffith: 00:18:30

you need you need that executive board level to be looking at

Lee Griffith: 00:18:34

their deputies, and how they develop their deputies,

Lee Griffith: 00:18:38

recognizing that they've come up through a specialist route and

Lee Griffith: 00:18:41

given them the broader skills, and then that being a thing that

Lee Griffith: 00:18:45

is focused on every stage and step of an organization. So at

Lee Griffith: 00:18:51

any point that you're recruiting, how are you testing

Lee Griffith: 00:18:54

for those broader skills that you might need in leadership?

Lee Griffith: 00:18:59

And I think even when you work in a specialty, we often talk

Lee Griffith: 00:19:02

about, if you're aspiring to move into a more senior

Lee Griffith: 00:19:08

leadership role, you're going to need to take on an

Lee Griffith: 00:19:13

organizational perspective, not just your specialists

Lee Griffith: 00:19:16

perspective. And so the burden gets put on you to think about

Lee Griffith: 00:19:20

how do I step into that space? But if we flip it the other way,

Lee Griffith: 00:19:24

where's where are the leadership teams, helping people to

Lee Griffith: 00:19:30

understand what they do in context to the bigger picture?

Lee Griffith: 00:19:35

Where are they helping them to articulate and test or try

Lee Griffith: 00:19:38

different projects, that is outside of their area of

Lee Griffith: 00:19:41

expertise so that they're getting the broader leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:19:45

skills that they might be? I think, even as managers or

Lee Griffith: 00:19:48

functions we can be very protectionist of our teams. And

Lee Griffith: 00:19:53

therefore we're not helping them in that preparation. And I say

Lee Griffith: 00:19:55

that as someone who probably talk to X team members would say

Lee Griffith: 00:20:00

Yeah, I didn't know that. But I, you know, that was I did think

Lee Griffith: 00:20:05

short term sometimes. And this is what we need to think I

Lee Griffith: 00:20:07

didn't always think, particularly in my early years,

Lee Griffith: 00:20:11

so much in the long term nurturing. And I think that is

Lee Griffith: 00:20:14

the shift that needs to happen. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:20:16

Carrie-Ann Wade: not about creating those opportunities for

Lee Griffith: 00:20:18

stretch isn't there but you know, might sometimes feel a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:20:22

risky for you organization, they are as a leadership team. But

Lee Griffith: 00:20:26

it's not sometimes until you take those risks that you spot

Lee Griffith: 00:20:29

the opportunity and those people with potential to go beyond the

Lee Griffith: 00:20:34

immediate sphere that they're working in, I guess. So. On that

Lee Griffith: 00:20:38

note about spotting leadership potential and nurturing it, I

Lee Griffith: 00:20:42

guess, like, how do we do that? And I'm thinking about that in

Lee Griffith: 00:20:46

the context that we operate in with how to take the lead, where

Lee Griffith: 00:20:51

we talk a lot about doing leadership your own way, and not

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

necessarily conforming to traditional leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:20:58

stereotype. So tip kind of taking that on board, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:02

how are we spotting leadership potential that might actually I

Lee Griffith: 00:21:05

guess, be different from our own style and approach to

Lee Griffith: 00:21:08

leadership? If you can answer this million dollar question,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:14

you're being employed by everybody to spot all of their

Lee Griffith: 00:21:16

leaders for the future, Lee might be a money making

Lee Griffith: 00:21:19

opportunity? Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:21

I think there's that thing isn't there around.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:27

Understanding where it is that you want to get to as an

Lee Griffith: 00:21:31

organization, and recognizing each leader in that most senior

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

leadership team need to know, this is the I suppose the

Lee Griffith: 00:21:43

dynamic we're seeking to create in our organization, this is

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

where we need to get to, and these, this is the people that

Lee Griffith: 00:21:50

we need to have around us, in order to get us to that space.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:55

And, and having the willingness and the maturity, I suppose to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:03

know that it's okay to have different different thoughts,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

different views, different approaches, as long as we're

Lee Griffith: 00:22:10

aligned in where we need to get to at the end. As long as

Lee Griffith: 00:22:17

there's maturity around, risks that we're going to take, as

Lee Griffith: 00:22:21

long as there's maturity around, I'm going to create a safety

Lee Griffith: 00:22:24

culture that we can speak up and challenge each other in a

Lee Griffith: 00:22:26

productive way. That's, that's still respectful, and kind and

Lee Griffith: 00:22:32

all of that kind of stuff, but that we are being honest about

Lee Griffith: 00:22:37

what we do well, where we need to grow, and all of that kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:22:40

stuff. So that's that's the headspace that that senior most

Lee Griffith: 00:22:46

senior leadership team needs to get in. And then you start to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:48

role model that down in the organization, if you're, you're

Lee Griffith: 00:22:52

behaving in that high performing state as a senior team, then

Lee Griffith: 00:22:57

that should be how your deputies and that next kind of tear, if

Lee Griffith: 00:23:02

we talked about in hierarchical sense. I think the problem with

Lee Griffith: 00:23:09

creating pipelines in organizations is that people

Lee Griffith: 00:23:14

look to nurture their own, and they perpetuate bias and

Lee Griffith: 00:23:20

behaviors, I suppose. So that's where the self awareness comes

Lee Griffith: 00:23:24

in. And all of that I worked in an organization where we had a

Lee Griffith: 00:23:31

potential future leaders matrix, where every director had to map

Lee Griffith: 00:23:37

out where direct reports. Now that could be really powerful if

Lee Griffith: 00:23:44

you had the right mindset and approach of that most senior

Lee Griffith: 00:23:47

leadership team. But if you don't, you've got very

Lee Griffith: 00:23:51

subjective views. You're not doing it in partnership with

Lee Griffith: 00:23:56

your deputies, you don't really understand where they want to

Lee Griffith: 00:23:59

go, where they want to develop, and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:03

And so I think there are exercises you can do, but you've

Lee Griffith: 00:24:08

got to do that work as a senior team. Get to set my sense. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:14

absolutely.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:14

Carrie-Ann Wade: It absolutely does make sense. And I think

Lee Griffith: 00:24:17

there's something as well about not making assumptions in that

Lee Griffith: 00:24:20

space. There. So you just talked about if you're not doing that,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:24

in collaboration with those people you're identifying as

Lee Griffith: 00:24:27

future leaders, like what's the point in doing it like what's,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:30

what is your intended outcome. And I've worked in organizations

Lee Griffith: 00:24:34

and lead teams where I think I've spotted some potential

Lee Griffith: 00:24:38

future talent in that leadership space and got really over

Lee Griffith: 00:24:41

excited about it and making all my plans for like, how that

Lee Griffith: 00:24:45

person was going to be able to step up into a different

Lee Griffith: 00:24:48

position and you know, be more kind of visible in that

Lee Griffith: 00:24:52

leadership space and and then I've got all over excited and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:56

then gone and had the conversation with the individual

Lee Griffith: 00:24:58

and actually the individuals like that's not for May it's not

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

my aspiration, it's not where I want to head, I'm very

Lee Griffith: 00:25:04

comfortable operating in the space that I'm operating in, I

Lee Griffith: 00:25:08

don't have any desire to want to be in any sort of leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:25:11

position in the future. So thanks. but no thanks. So

Lee Griffith: 00:25:13

there's also that element of needing to have those sorts of

Lee Griffith: 00:25:17

conversations and creating an environment where it's okay to

Lee Griffith: 00:25:20

have those conversations as well, rather than making

Lee Griffith: 00:25:23

assumptions that like, right, I've spotted a brilliant person,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:26

I'm now going to invest all my time in forcing them maybe into

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

a space where they don't actually really want to be

Lee Griffith: 00:25:32

because then you're not actually going to get the best out of

Lee Griffith: 00:25:34

them, are you so I think that awareness of other people's

Lee Griffith: 00:25:38

intention and desire for the future is also a really

Lee Griffith: 00:25:41

important part of kind of spotting and nurturing that

Lee Griffith: 00:25:44

talent, I guess, I

Lee Griffith: 00:25:46

think it's important to I suppose it all,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:52

which was down to you can't have a pipeline without awareness. So

Lee Griffith: 00:25:55

there's awareness of the individuals, as you've said, and

Lee Griffith: 00:25:57

what their individual needs are, there's awareness of your own

Lee Griffith: 00:26:00

bias, and making sure that you're not creating an echo

Lee Griffith: 00:26:03

chamber, that you're creating diversity of thinking and of

Lee Griffith: 00:26:06

approach and all of that kind of stuff. But then there's also

Lee Griffith: 00:26:09

this awareness around not confusing people's desire to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:13

manage. We're sharing leadership ability, or someone's

Lee Griffith: 00:26:17

professional expertise with leadership potential, because I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:20

think that can be and it ties into some of those other

Lee Griffith: 00:26:23

conversations that we've been having of someone might be

Lee Griffith: 00:26:27

really excelling in their role. But that doesn't mean they've

Lee Griffith: 00:26:30

necessarily got those border skills you need to to reach what

Lee Griffith: 00:26:35

it is you want to reach as an organization. Yeah. And you

Lee Griffith: 00:26:38

you've set them up for a fall because you put them on this

Lee Griffith: 00:26:40

pedestal. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:41

Carrie-Ann Wade: that is that setting up for failure, isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:26:43

it? And what support do you put in place if maybe somebody is

Lee Griffith: 00:26:46

technically an expert in their field, and maybe does want to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

move into a different type of position more in that leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:26:53

space? Like, what support are you giving them to enable them

Lee Griffith: 00:26:56

to do that and learn those skills, and that maybe comes

Lee Griffith: 00:26:58

back a bit to the point around? Generally, organizations are not

Lee Griffith: 00:27:02

very good at having leadership conversations with people until

Lee Griffith: 00:27:05

they're in a leadership position. And that doesn't feel

Lee Griffith: 00:27:08

quite right, because that's not helping you to spot and nurture

Lee Griffith: 00:27:12

that that potential leadership talent for the future. I guess.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:17

One of the things that you touched on when we were talking

Lee Griffith: 00:27:20

earlier is about that reaction, sometimes, particularly when you

Lee Griffith: 00:27:24

work in perhaps a specialist field or profession, of bringing

Lee Griffith: 00:27:28

new people in, who maybe don't have, perhaps it's sector

Lee Griffith: 00:27:31

experience, I don't know what you know, and kind of going

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

like, oh, that doesn't seem right, because they haven't got

Lee Griffith: 00:27:37

that knowledge and skill. But hopefully, they've been

Lee Griffith: 00:27:40

recruited because they've got the right values, attitude, all

Lee Griffith: 00:27:43

of that kind of stuff, and, and potential. And I guess there is

Lee Griffith: 00:27:46

something around, being wary about, you're building your own

Lee Griffith: 00:27:51

internal pipeline that you don't miss out on the opportunity to

Lee Griffith: 00:27:55

bring different experience and talent into your organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:59

because you're so focused on all we want to do is grow our own,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:03

because I think that can be quite dangerous as

Lee Griffith: 00:28:05

well. Yeah. Yeah, completely. I think that we've

Lee Griffith: 00:28:11

everything, there's a balance, you've got to strike. So you

Lee Griffith: 00:28:14

always want to be challenging your thinking your reference

Lee Griffith: 00:28:19

points? Are you just doing the same old, same old? Or are you

Lee Griffith: 00:28:25

looking for something new and different and new and different

Lee Griffith: 00:28:27

can be investing in your people to explore what new and

Lee Griffith: 00:28:31

different looks like and set them up for success in the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:34

future, new and different can be bringing someone in who's going

Lee Griffith: 00:28:38

to challenge you, and your thinking and the way that you

Lee Griffith: 00:28:41

work? And I do think you need a bit of churn and a bit of fresh

Lee Griffith: 00:28:47

blood being brought in. But it's yeah, what's your intention

Lee Griffith: 00:28:51

behind it?

Lee Griffith: 00:28:53

Carrie-Ann Wade: So as we're talking about churn, people

Lee Griffith: 00:28:57

coming in, there's a natural, I guess, element to the next bit

Lee Griffith: 00:29:02

of the conversation about people moving on. And we have done an

Lee Griffith: 00:29:06

episode entirely, I think about moving on as a leader and what

Lee Griffith: 00:29:09

that looks and feels like previously. But if we're talking

Lee Griffith: 00:29:14

about going down that route of building your own pipeline, and

Lee Griffith: 00:29:18

positioning your deputy, for example, to be your natural

Lee Griffith: 00:29:22

successor, or maybe not your natural successor, but have the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:25

best opportunity to step into that space when you move on.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:30

Because that's why you've hopefully invested in in that

Lee Griffith: 00:29:33

individual. Gee, that. I guess the question I wanted to ask is,

Lee Griffith: 00:29:37

if you're moving on for a positive reason, you've got

Lee Griffith: 00:29:41

different role in that organization, you've got into

Lee Griffith: 00:29:43

promotion, whatever, then great. And you've identified that

Lee Griffith: 00:29:46

you've got somebody who perhaps could step up now and have that

Lee Griffith: 00:29:49

opportunity to lead that feels really natural and like a good

Lee Griffith: 00:29:53

positive progression. But if you're moving on maybe for more

Lee Griffith: 00:29:57

negative reasons, because perhaps you Your experience as a

Lee Griffith: 00:30:00

leader in that organization hasn't been that positive,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:04

perhaps in that leadership space that maybe your deputy is not as

Lee Griffith: 00:30:09

exposed to on a regular basis, there is perhaps a poor culture

Lee Griffith: 00:30:13

or some bad behaviors playing out? How do you manage that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:18

situation without compromising your integrity, because there's

Lee Griffith: 00:30:22

a bit of you as a leader, that's like, I've got you ready to take

Lee Griffith: 00:30:25

on my role when I move on. But there's also maybe a bit of you

Lee Griffith: 00:30:29

that feels challenged, because you're like, This person is

Lee Griffith: 00:30:32

really good. And am I throwing them to the wolves? Let's be

Lee Griffith: 00:30:35

really, let's just say it like that, like, you know, what do

Lee Griffith: 00:30:38

you think in that sort of space,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:40

or? I think that, well, I suppose my first thought

Lee Griffith: 00:30:46

is, I think there should be no surprises. So if you're doing

Lee Griffith: 00:30:52

the nurturing work to build up your pipeline, that includes the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

warts and all understanding of them understanding the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:59

organization, so it shouldn't come to this, there shouldn't be

Lee Griffith: 00:31:03

such a disconnect between their experience of the organization

Lee Griffith: 00:31:08

and your, I'm going to say your experience. But I'm also then

Lee Griffith: 00:31:14

going to talk about perception, because I think this is this is

Lee Griffith: 00:31:17

the difference. I can't assume how I think and feel about an

Lee Griffith: 00:31:21

organization and my reasons for leaving an organization is going

Lee Griffith: 00:31:24

to be the same as my deputies. And what I feel I am willing to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:29

tackle or not willing to tackle or willing to handle or not

Lee Griffith: 00:31:32

willing to handle that they are going to think and feel the same

Lee Griffith: 00:31:35

because hopefully, I haven't created someone in the same mold

Lee Griffith: 00:31:39

as me. So I think there is something about we have to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:45

accept that our deputies are, or whomever it is that's coming

Lee Griffith: 00:31:49

into that role, are their own human beings, they have their

Lee Griffith: 00:31:53

own thoughts and feelings and their own ways of responding to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:57

situations that may be similar, but they may be very different

Lee Griffith: 00:32:00

to ours. And I think if you've given them a good grounding in

Lee Griffith: 00:32:04

your role, then they're gonna have an awareness of the reality

Lee Griffith: 00:32:09

of the role and of the organization, it's their choice,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:13

then what they want to do with that, and I don't think you can

Lee Griffith: 00:32:17

take on the burden of guilt or otherwise, if they decide to

Lee Griffith: 00:32:23

stay or feel like you're handing over something toxic to them,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:27

because as I say, there should be no surprises. And I've been

Lee Griffith: 00:32:30

in places where I've recruited, you know, deputies with a view

Lee Griffith: 00:32:35

that at some point, maybe they could be the one to take over

Lee Griffith: 00:32:38

from me. And I was preparing them. And part of that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:42

preparation was about me backing away, more and more from the day

Lee Griffith: 00:32:47

to day running of the team and being very light touch in my

Lee Griffith: 00:32:50

management approach that they could shape the function as they

Lee Griffith: 00:32:52

wished, allowing them more access to the senior team so

Lee Griffith: 00:32:57

that they were building that trusting relationship with them

Lee Griffith: 00:33:00

directly. And so therefore, they were experiencing similar things

Lee Griffith: 00:33:03

than that I would have experienced or understanding of

Lee Griffith: 00:33:06

the personalities. And I had various reasons for why I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:13

decided I needed to eventually leave the organization. But it's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:19

always been really, really important to me that my

Lee Griffith: 00:33:22

experience wasn't the thing that influenced how they felt about

Lee Griffith: 00:33:25

their role or the organization. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:27

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that's a really good point, isn't it

Lee Griffith: 00:33:29

about not wanting to overly influence on the day, these

Lee Griffith: 00:33:32

people can operate with their own individual kind of judgment

Lee Griffith: 00:33:37

and exercise their own individual choice. And it's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:40

important that actually, they go into that, like you say, with no

Lee Griffith: 00:33:44

surprises, because that would be a weird dynamic to have with

Lee Griffith: 00:33:47

somebody who's Yeah, that pity or a broader senior leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:33:50

team, if actually, what you're presenting to them was a totally

Lee Griffith: 00:33:53

different picture of, of what your perception is of what's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:57

happening in the organization. But equally, you know, they,

Lee Griffith: 00:34:00

they have the right to make their decisions as an

Lee Griffith: 00:34:03

individual, and you almost don't want to bias that too much with

Lee Griffith: 00:34:06

your own very personal experience of that, because it

Lee Griffith: 00:34:09

will be that person's choice to make when to hopefully they've

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

been positioned to be potential good candidate for that role on

Lee Griffith: 00:34:17

your departure, then it will be their choice to make whether

Lee Griffith: 00:34:19

they feel like they want to step into that space and, or not, and

Lee Griffith: 00:34:23

how that works for them. And I, I have been in that position

Lee Griffith: 00:34:26

previously, where I've worked for an organization where my

Lee Griffith: 00:34:29

boss left the organization and I had quite a bad experience

Lee Griffith: 00:34:33

within the organization. And we had been quite close. So I'd

Lee Griffith: 00:34:38

heard quite a lot of that. And I probably had some preconceived

Lee Griffith: 00:34:41

ideas about what the chief executive might be like to work

Lee Griffith: 00:34:44

with and what some of the other directors might be like to work

Lee Griffith: 00:34:47

with. And I was asked to step up and head up the team and be more

Lee Griffith: 00:34:51

in that leadership space. And for my own growth and stretch. I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

wanted to do that but with some apprehension, I would say

Lee Griffith: 00:34:57

because I was like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to deal

Lee Griffith: 00:34:59

with this. Chief Executive now he's been portrayed to me to be

Lee Griffith: 00:35:03

a certain way. And actually, my experience of that individual

Lee Griffith: 00:35:06

was completely different. Because as you quite rightly

Lee Griffith: 00:35:08

said, I was a completely different individual to my boss

Lee Griffith: 00:35:13

who, who then left. So actually, me building a relationship was

Lee Griffith: 00:35:16

different because of, you know, it is just, it's unique to

Lee Griffith: 00:35:19

everybody. So I do think it is about individuals kind of making

Lee Griffith: 00:35:24

their own way, isn't it and making their own decisions not

Lee Griffith: 00:35:27

being untainted by your own personal experience and

Lee Griffith: 00:35:31

feelings? It's probably more of an emotive thing, isn't it that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:34

gets transferred like you're transferring your emotions about

Lee Griffith: 00:35:37

something, which probably isn't, isn't a fair thing today. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:41

At the

Lee Griffith: 00:35:42

end of the day, you should be nurturing adult

Lee Griffith: 00:35:46

adult relationships with your team. This isn't about parent

Lee Griffith: 00:35:50

child, you shouldn't be seeing yourself at the end, if you are

Lee Griffith: 00:35:53

you've got you've got work to do in your self awareness, space,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:57

and all of that kind of stuff. Because you, you shouldn't see

Lee Griffith: 00:36:00

yourself as protector of the team, it should be an adult

Lee Griffith: 00:36:04

relationship. Yes,

Lee Griffith: 00:36:06

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that. I could talk about this forever.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:09

But I'm conscious of time and the fact that our listeners have

Lee Griffith: 00:36:11

probably got other things they want to do, as well as hearing

Lee Griffith: 00:36:14

us have these insightful leadership conversation. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:36:17

think that was a good note, to finish that kind of last bit of

Lee Griffith: 00:36:21

the conversation on but as always, we like to try and be a

Lee Griffith: 00:36:24

bit more action focused with our thinking and give people a sort

Lee Griffith: 00:36:27

of how to take away. So what action could people take, having

Lee Griffith: 00:36:32

listened to this episode, to consider how they are

Lee Griffith: 00:36:36

identifying future leaders for their organization?

Lee Griffith: 00:36:42

I think for me, it boils down to how are you

Lee Griffith: 00:36:47

focusing on the broader skills, develop development, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

those soft skills, whatever you want to call them? How are you

Lee Griffith: 00:36:56

getting your team to understand the importance of those? How are

Lee Griffith: 00:37:02

you demonstrating the importance of those in the way that you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:05

work so that you're role modeling. And I think in some

Lee Griffith: 00:37:09

ways, if that becomes more of the focus, you are naturally

Lee Griffith: 00:37:13

helping the evolution and pipeline of your team because

Lee Griffith: 00:37:15

you're creating those well rounded leaders that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:37:18

going to need for your organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that's really brilliant advice and a

Lee Griffith: 00:37:22

good action. And I guess the only thing I would add would be,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:26

make sure you're having those conversations with the people

Lee Griffith: 00:37:29

that you are potentially spotting as leaders for the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:32

future to understand where they're coming from, and what

Lee Griffith: 00:37:35

they might need in terms of that support. And even if it's on

Lee Griffith: 00:37:38

their radar to want to, you know, want to be in that space

Lee Griffith: 00:37:42

in the future. So there's definitely lots in there about

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

kind of listening and creating the right environment. So thank

Lee Griffith: 00:37:49

you, Lee. I've locked up in that conversation. I know we could

Lee Griffith: 00:37:52

carry on having it for the rest of the day, but we won't, we'll

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

let listeners get on and go about their business. But I'd be

Lee Griffith: 00:37:59

really interested to hear about listeners experiences. So drop

Lee Griffith: 00:38:02

us a line, get in touch with us on the socials. And we will be

Lee Griffith: 00:38:06

back again with another episode very soon.

Lee Griffith: 00:38:14

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit

Lee Griffith: 00:38:16

follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's

Lee Griffith: 00:38:19

discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple

Lee Griffith: 00:38:21

podcasts.

Lee Griffith: 00:38:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:25

can bet behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

Lee Griffith: 00:38:28

build your network of like minded leaders. Visit how to

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

take the lead.substack.com To find out more.

Lee Griffith: 00:38:34

And if you want to work with us to challenge and

Lee Griffith: 00:38:36

change leadership in your organization. Get in touch by

Lee Griffith: 00:38:39

dropping us an email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on

Lee Griffith: 00:38:43

the socials. Until next week. Get out there and take the lead