Tackling toxicity

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So that's where I want to take today's topic of

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conference. So

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Carrie-Ann Wade: a nice light hearted topic for the start of

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2024.

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Yeah, let's just get in there. Let's just get in there. Welcome

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to how to take the lead the podcast where we challenge the

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myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader today, and

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help you to succeed in post without compromise.

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I'm Lee Griffith, and I'm Carrie Anne Wade. And together we will

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be your guides question everything we've ever learned

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enjoy this episode.

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Hello, and welcome back to another episode of how to take

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the lead. Happy New Year.

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Happy New Year 2024. How has that happened already?

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Where did 2023 go to by the way?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I have no no idea. I am I hope you had a

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restful festive period. I didn't find sparkles because but I

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bought bought the brightness for today,

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but the brightness for the new year. So let's hope that set a

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sign of what 2024 will be like for us all

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super primary. Kicking

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Carrie-Ann Wade: off with some normal housekeeping Hello to

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everyone who is watching us on YouTube. If you're not watching

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us on YouTube, you can watch us on YouTube. You can get all our

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links at how to take the lead.com that's where you can

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also listen to past episodes. And subscribe to our substack

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community where we do extra behind the scenes and additional

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prompts and things you could think about post an episode. And

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you can chat with other leaders. So head over to substack if you

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haven't already, and we're still on Instagram, not so much

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Twitter, ex whatever it's called we've we've decided to step away

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from that. And because actually Oh my god, this is the bridge, I

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didn't even realize what's going to happen. Because we felt it

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was a bit of a toxic toxic. We decided it didn't align with our

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values. So we stepped away. And that feels really apt for

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today's topic.

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It does I know is if we intended that to happen on purpose. And

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we absolutely didn't. But you're right. You're right. So yeah,

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I'm

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I am. I don't know if I'm excited

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Carrie-Ann Wade: or if it's trepidation for today's topic.

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But it's something that we talk about a lot in bit parts on the

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podcast, but definitely a lot in other conversations and with

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other people. So yeah, let's see where today's topic of

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conversation takes us.

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Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: so we've we've talked a lot about culture in

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organizations, and the fact that it impacts performance, and

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morale and reputation. Good and bad, depending on the type

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culture. That's that's been nurtured in an organization. And

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we've also skirted around the topic of toxic, toxic

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leadership. In other episodes, we shared some of our stories,

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if you've been a longtime listener or viewer, you will

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have heard some of the stories that we've had in our own

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experiences in the workplace. But also, listeners have been in

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touch with us, and they've shared what's been happening in

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their organizations too. So we know that it is very much

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something that is a live and I should say, well, but it's not

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well is live and kicking issue in organizations. And I don't

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think we've ever really tackled the topic head on. And by that I

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mean, the we referenced the fact that there is toxic leadership,

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and but we've never done well, what do you do if that toxicity

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has started to set in and almost rot the the organization? So

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that's where I want to take today's topic of conversation,

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a nice, lighthearted topic for the start of 2024. Yeah, yeah,

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let's just get in there. Let's just get in there. And I think

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it can be really easy for us to describe the symptoms of toxic

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leadership. And that's probably what we've when we've talked in

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the past. That's that's how we've probably approached it. I

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don't want to necessarily rehash all of that and just keep

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talking about the problem. Because we are all about action.

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And it definitely does feel like something that does need to be

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tackled in some industries in some sectors, certainly more so

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than in others. And I'm sure some of that might come out in

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today's conversation, but so that we all started in a similar

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place. Let's define what we mean by toxic leadership so that

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those that are listening or watching can understand maybe

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the lens that we're approaching the topic today. So Karianne,

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how do you see toxic

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leadership? Safe? For me, I

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Carrie-Ann Wade: think it's about leadership that has a

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negative effect on colleagues, maybe its stakeholders, the

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broader organization. And my experience of toxic leadership

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is that that negative effect is happening, and it's happening

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consistently. So it's not just a pocket or a blip, it's almost

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like that's the consistent way things happen around here. And I

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guess for me, I would liken it to be in in a bit of a

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dysfunctional relationship or in a dysfunctional family. And it's

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at its worst, I think, when it doesn't change, or you can't

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find a way out of it. So it just continues and continues. And

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like you talked about that, that kind of rot that sets in,

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there's kind of no way out. So you just accept that it's always

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going to be dysfunctional. And that almost becomes the norm.

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And that's okay. So that's kind of the way I would describe

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it, when there's something that you and this is a question that

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I've been pondering Eva, and there won't be a right or wrong

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answer. But when does something tip the balance from being just

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poor, or dysfunctional or challenging to actually be in

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toxic?

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I think for me, it's that level of consistency. But it's

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happening all the time that there is no positivity, there's

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no positive kind of energy output that all you are hearing

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is that consistent sense of people being unhappy, being

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fearful, not being sure about how things are progressing in

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your organization not having opportunity? So I think for me,

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it's about that kind

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of consistent level of

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Carrie-Ann Wade: all of those things that make up a toxic

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leadership or a toxic culture. So the poor behaviors people not

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right, you know, all the stuff, we've talked about people not

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feeling able to raise concerns,

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but that just being almost accepted

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Carrie-Ann Wade: as the norm, like, that's the way we do it

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here. And that that's okay. When actually there's that

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undercurrent of, maybe not everybody, because it's almost

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become the accepted norm. But some people kind of thinking,

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well, actually, I don't think that is okay. But there's no way

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now to challenge that. So either have to accept, that's how it is

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here and carry on as I am, or make maybe some more radical

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decisions about moving away from it. And I think that's the bit

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for me as well, that signals some level of toxicity, as such

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hardware to say I thought was gonna get it wrong, then, as in

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like, it's, it's those very polar opposite choices that

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people feel they've got to make, they either stay and put up with

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it, or they leave. And I feel like if it wasn't toxic, there

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would be a middle ground to be found and a compromise which

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would be about that ability to shift or change or meet

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challenge. Rather than going right, I just keep my head down

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and put up with it, or I'm part of being that in that toxic

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place, or I have to step away from it. So that's the bit for

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me, I think that signals how toxic somewhere really is

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because if it wasn't, if that toxicity wasn't there, there'd

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be a way to stay there and make some positive change and shift

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the dial. But if people feel like that's not possible, then

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that feels to me like that's a really strong signal that it's

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toxic. Yeah,

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I suppose I would add to your, how you've defined it with, for

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me in the equation, there's something to do with the harm,

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the outcome is harm in some way. And whether that is personal

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harm, because of the toll of what's happening in your

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organization, or harm to reputation, whether it's to

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customers, whether it's actual harm in some way, because your

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processes have failed. So

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I think that's when

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Carrie-Ann Wade: true toxic organizations trip over into

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from being I suppose, just challenged or just dysfunctional

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is when that outcome, I think has some element of harm in it.

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Yeah, it's about that negative effect, isn't it that actually

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what's happening is there's something negative as a result

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of how the organization is being led or how it is operated?

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Definitely. For me, I think that is a good indicator that it's

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toxic.

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Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: we did a workshop recently, you and I,

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and it was in the health sector, and we were talking about toxic

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leadership with a group of health and care leaders. And one

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of the things we He asked them to do was to rate their current

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leadership and how well they thought their leadership teams

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did against certain.

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Criteria. Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I'll use that word probably isn't the right

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one. And we were asking them around things like, how

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trustworthy is the team? How transparent? Are they in their

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communications? How do they connect you to the bigger

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picture? How much do they bring vision to the organization's

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live their values aren't you don't live with integrity in the

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way that I deal with people? Inclusive safety to speak. So

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those were the kind of big themes that we were asking them

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to write one to five, five being outstanding, one being

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inadequate. Anyone in the health service will understand those.

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And, um, they,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: it was quite interesting when I went back

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recently, and I was looking at what people said, and there was

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a lot of middle of the ground. So so the average score didn't

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go above three for any of those things, which says something

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about the state of leadership perhaps in in the health sector

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at the moment. And obviously, with averages, you're going to

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get some people who think it's great in their organization, and

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you're going to have others that think it's quite poor, which is

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obviously why it brings brings down the score to the average

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score. But there was there are a couple that stood out to me were

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transparent communications, for example, was was one of the

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lowest rated connecting people to the bigger, bigger picture

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was quite lowly rated. And even living the values and

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inclusiveness didn't rate as highly as some of some of the

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other ones. And I suppose I'm not suggesting that those being

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low scores means that you've got a toxic leadership team. And I'm

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not suggesting that this is evidence that there is toxic

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practices at play in those organizations of those people

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that that participated. But some might say, particularly with

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some of those themes, that they're definitely not building

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the right positive, high performance culture in the

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organization if they're not hitting those things. And, and

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therefore, could be on the way to not necessarily building a

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healthy culture and possibly have some form of toxic

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leadership practices in

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place. What What are your views carry on?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: So I think for me, you're right. It's like,

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it's not like big rah, rah, it's toxic it but it could be a

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signal that some organizations or leadership teams might be

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heading that way. But some of the first things that I thought

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for those areas for organizations that scored low

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was, are leaders really listening to what's happening in

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their organization? And are they in touch with that? And are they

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seeking feedback about what matters and what's important,

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and then demonstrating that they're acting on that feedback

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that they're hearing. And there was a bit for me about are some

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of those organizations in that space where the leadership team

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is operating in its own bubble that isn't particularly

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connected to other parts of the organization? And does the

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leadership team and those organizations that have maybe

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had people score them much lower, have the right mechanisms

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in place to communicate with and engage with key stakeholders,

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whether that be the workforce or, or anything else really. And

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it might signify that those things are not in place, it

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might signify those things are not in place can consistently,

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it might be that some of these organizations happen to have

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newly formed leadership teams, for example, that are just

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finding their feet. So it doesn't mean those things won't

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happen into the future. But yeah, it just made me think

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there's there's obviously quite a lot at play in those

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organizations. And I think my experience, particularly in much

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bigger organizations, and we were in a healthcare setting, so

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many of the organizations that people were in problem are

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probably quite large, is that there's often pockets of really

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good stuff happening, but also pockets of really poor staff.

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And again, it's about that inconsistency. So if I think for

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example, about sort of visibility and transparency of

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communication, even in my own organization, do some of our

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leaders feel like tick, we're really visible, because every

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week we have an all Staff Webinar, where a number of our

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colleagues can join and speak to every person. He's an executive

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director in the organization, which sounds really great. But

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what about the staff who can't join because the time of that

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webinar doesn't see it? They're working Practice, would they be

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people that would say our leadership team is visible?

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Probably not, because we're not creating the opportunities for

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them to engage with and see them. So, you know, I think

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there's something about it's a struggle, isn't it one size

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won't fit all about trying to create all of those conditions

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and get really high scores against all of those criterias,

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we set criteria that we set in that meeting in that workshop.

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But we, I just feel like it's about the onus being leaders,

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Candy more, but I think maybe there's some leaders who are

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complacent. And like we've got a few things set up in our

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organization, we've ticked the box, we're doing all right,

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thanks without really, truly getting into the grit of it.

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So in the last series we talked about, we had an episode on

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power, and the different power dynamics that can be at play

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from a leadership perspective. And we talked about some leaders

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using coercive power to get what they want, say that threat of

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something bad will happen, if something doesn't take place, or

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an action doesn't happen, or whatever that is. And we know

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absolutely, that that type of leadership creates fear

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absolutely is toxic. And we know that when that happens, it does

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lead to people not speaking up, or they become Yes, people. And

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I suppose I want to explore how you recognize as a leader, if

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this type of behavior, I suppose is at play in your organization.

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So can I caveat my response to this with you have to be a

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leader who wants to recognize that? Yeah, I think there are

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lots of signs that you can pick up on, and some are quite

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practical operational things that might be happening in your

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organization, that would indicate perhaps, that there is

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that culture of fear. But if you are part of the leadership, who

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is perpetuating that culture of fear, you are either not going

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to want to address you might see it but not want to address it,

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because it doesn't suit your desire to lead with coercive

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power. Or you,

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you might just might not be able to recognize it because you're

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in that space, or you might not be open to it. So I guess my

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answer is coming from a place of as a leader who wants to get to

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grips with what's going on in their organization is going to

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be open to seeing some of this. So that's my caveat. But I think

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there are lots of signs within an organization that there is a

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fear culture, and some of it is about what you see happening

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practically. So you might see lots of micromanagement, for

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example, happening, lots of focus on people having to

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achieve daily tasks. Rather than that bigger picture creative

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thinking happening, you might only hear certain voices a lot

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in your organization, rather than a more kind of, you know,

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different set of voices or more voices. In fact, at all, there

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might be a lot of language or action around blame. So blame

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might be something that is happening a lot in your

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organization, lots of focus on in that blame space, kind of the

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punishment or the consequence of doing something badly. And a

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focus more on dealing with what might be perceived to be poor

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performance, rather than looking at how you're creating

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opportunities for things to improve, and for people to

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thrive. And in that space around people thriving, there's

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probably a lack of development opportunities in your

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organization, potentially high turnover, poor retention,

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difficulty recruiting to roles, and particularly difficulty

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promoting people internally, because perhaps you're not

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creating those opportunities for people to grow and develop. So I

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think there are actually lots of signals all over the place in

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your organization, that there is that culture of fear happening.

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But I guess as a leader, it's about how open you are to see in

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recognizing that seeing that and then dealing with it. So there's

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some really good

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Carrie-Ann Wade: signals, warning signs, I think, for you

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to look out in in your organization. And I don't really

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think there's there's more I can add to that. Obviously, there.

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There'll be practical things if you're doing staff surveys and

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things like that you should get a temperature check of how

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people are feeling that might give you an opportunity to probe

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a little more deeply in areas where there perhaps are those

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types of challenges.

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And I suppose to go a bit further, how do you

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recognize

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Carrie-Ann Wade: if you're the person that might be

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contributing to a toxic leadership

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unwittingly A perhaps? Yeah, that's a

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Carrie-Ann Wade: good question, isn't it? Because for me, I

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guess it goes back to that point about wanting to like being open

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to having that recognition and that level of insight,

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because I was about to say, because you might

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Carrie-Ann Wade: be picking up on signals from other people

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that's feeding that back to you. But quite possibly you won't be

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because people won't be in a position where they feel like

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they can address that with you. Because you are giving off those

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vibes of, you know, not being open to having that feedback, I

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guess. I mean, there would be something for me about, you

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know, staff, survey, 360, anything like that, where you

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are getting feedback from people in your organization, probably

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in a more anonymous way that might signal that actually, part

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of it is about you and your role and the role that you're playing

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in that culture. But I think unless there are people who are

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going to be willing to have some of those frank conversations

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with you, and perhaps there might be in your own leadership

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team. That might be a bit a bit of a challenge, I guess. And you

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might pick that up if you're having coaching or mentoring in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:14

any way that that might come through in terms of what gets

Lee Griffith: 00:21:17

explored in those spaces. But I guess it would be dependent on

Lee Griffith: 00:21:21

whether you're a leader who is doing that self development and

Lee Griffith: 00:21:25

self growth. And my guess my worry is often the leaders that

Lee Griffith: 00:21:29

are contributing quite heavily to that toxic culture and the

Lee Griffith: 00:21:33

leaders who are not necessarily that open to or interested in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:37

doing some of that. So you post a really tricky question for me,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:40

then, because I'm not really sure I know what the answer is

Lee Griffith: 00:21:42

so bit cheap to know if you've got any thoughts in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:45

that space? Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's an inch because what as I, as I was

Lee Griffith: 00:21:50

pondering it myself there, I can always sit there. So I came from

Lee Griffith: 00:21:55

it from from the point of view that actually at times in my

Lee Griffith: 00:21:59

career, I definitely micromanage people, and was probably a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:22:04

unrealistic with timescales that I set, because I've said this

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

before I was judging it against what I thought I could do, or

Lee Griffith: 00:22:11

what I did at that level, or not recognizing that everyone around

Lee Griffith: 00:22:15

me was different to me, for example.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:19

And so, you

Lee Griffith: 00:22:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: know, we've all been in situations where perhaps

Lee Griffith: 00:22:23

we're not thinking as long term as we need to wish quite short

Lee Griffith: 00:22:27

term. We're quite reactive. And, and so then, then your mind

Lee Griffith: 00:22:31

goes, oh, gosh, was I a toxic leader? No, I don't think I was,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:37

but maybe there were times when I was creating that sense. So

Lee Griffith: 00:22:40

there's, there's always that sense of probably the wrong

Lee Griffith: 00:22:43

people. And I'm not saying that I am a wrong person. But other

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

people might be listening to this and feeling super sensitive

Lee Griffith: 00:22:50

about the type of culture that they're trying to create. And

Lee Griffith: 00:22:54

I've heard some of these symptoms and warning signs and

Lee Griffith: 00:22:57

have gone. I do that. And so yeah, it boils down to, I

Lee Griffith: 00:23:07

suppose, the level in which you can have honest conversations

Lee Griffith: 00:23:13

with people around you. And you do it in a way that isn't you're

Lee Griffith: 00:23:18

not sensitive to what you hear? Yes, if you recognize that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:22

you're being reactive to it, even if it's like an overly, oh,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:26

my god, I can't believe I'm doing this or becoming too

Lee Griffith: 00:23:30

defensive, whatever it might be, then that's probably a sign you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:34

need to do some form of work, even if it you know, toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:23:39

behaviors isn't at the root of what you're doing. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:42

I think that I think that is a good point isn't there you, you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:45

will know how you react to potentially getting some of that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:48

feedback or having some of that, that type of conversation. And

Lee Griffith: 00:23:51

if that reaction feels a bit over the top in some way, or it

Lee Griffith: 00:23:55

feels a bit triggering, then you're right, I think that's a

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

signal that maybe you need to take a step back and breathe and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:01

reflect and try to understand what's happening for you in

Lee Griffith: 00:24:04

terms of the behaviors you're exhibiting in the workplace,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:07

which, as you say, might not be fully toxic, or they might not

Lee Griffith: 00:24:11

be that you might not have done something with the intent for it

Lee Griffith: 00:24:14

to learn that way. But being open to hearing the impact, and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:18

it's back to right to what we said at the start, what impact

Lee Griffith: 00:24:20

has your behavior as a leader had on your colleagues in the

Lee Griffith: 00:24:24

organization or on the broader organization? And if that's been

Lee Griffith: 00:24:27

negative, you know, a sign a sign that that is unintentional

Lee Griffith: 00:24:32

is that once you come to that realization, the thing you want

Lee Griffith: 00:24:36

to do is find a way to resolve it and fix it rather than just

Lee Griffith: 00:24:40

accept that well, okay, that's,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:43

that's how it is. Hmm. One of the things that I was reflecting

Lee Griffith: 00:24:50

on this she was talking with we've we've had these

Lee Griffith: 00:24:53

conversations before, and have both worked with leaders who You

Lee Griffith: 00:25:01

almost take on that victim, who are toxic leaders, absolutely no

Lee Griffith: 00:25:05

doubt about it, but they take on a victim mentality in the way

Lee Griffith: 00:25:10

that they are treated and behave in the organization, and they

Lee Griffith: 00:25:13

don't see what they're creating or perpetuating and all of that

Lee Griffith: 00:25:17

kind of stuff. So I there is something for me about the self

Lee Griffith: 00:25:24

work you need to do as a leader to understand, am I being

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

defensive? Because this is just uncomfortable? What where's the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:34

evidence? I suppose it goes back to that conversation that we've

Lee Griffith: 00:25:36

we've had enough episodes around, like, where's the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:38

evidence that I'm being treated poorly, or that I'm treating

Lee Griffith: 00:25:44

others poorly. And I think that being able to see that through a

Lee Griffith: 00:25:49

more independent lens, as you say, working with a coach or

Lee Griffith: 00:25:52

something would be really helpful.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

Yeah, and I do agree with that. Because as you say, we've both

Lee Griffith: 00:25:58

operated in that space ourselves. And we've probably

Lee Griffith: 00:26:01

seen examples of it in other places where, you know, and we

Lee Griffith: 00:26:05

have said this before, being a leader is hard. So we're not

Lee Griffith: 00:26:08

trying to suggest that there won't be times when as a leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:11

you might feel like everything's against you, or people have got

Lee Griffith: 00:26:16

no negative a negative view of you. But I guess the trick to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:19

being a good leader in my eyes is being able to take that on

Lee Griffith: 00:26:24

board and have the level of insight around, okay, so what

Lee Griffith: 00:26:28

can I do to make this just to make a change, or to influence a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:33

different outcome here. And it's really hard sometimes, isn't it

Lee Griffith: 00:26:36

not to take it personally and feel like you're being attacked,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:40

but there's something then again, also about what coping

Lee Griffith: 00:26:42

mechanisms you've put in place for yourself as a leader, to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:46

deal with some of that, which you can maybe do privately in a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

different space, rather than reacting straight back to the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:53

situation that has happened, say somebody has given you some

Lee Griffith: 00:26:56

difficult feedback that might be hard to hear. It's your role as

Lee Griffith: 00:27:00

a leader to hear that. And to process that, and to have a

Lee Griffith: 00:27:04

grown up and sensible conversation about okay, what

Lee Griffith: 00:27:07

might we need to do to progress things in a more positive way?

Lee Griffith: 00:27:11

Even if inside you feel like, Oh, God, like, you know, I feel

Lee Griffith: 00:27:15

really terrible, or that's really hurt me. You know, I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:20

think it's about having that ability in that level of

Lee Griffith: 00:27:22

maturity as a leader to kind of separate what what you need to

Lee Griffith: 00:27:26

do as a leader to progress a situation or resolve a scenario,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:31

versus what you might need to do as a leader in a different

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

space, maybe not so openly, to just deal with how that has

Lee Griffith: 00:27:38

impacted you individually. And I know we might come on to talk a

Lee Griffith: 00:27:42

bit more about that sort of stuff later.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:44

Just moving on a little bit, when we ran the workshop that I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:48

alluded to earlier, in the episode, we asked them to name

Lee Griffith: 00:27:53

what they thought the top three challenges were that had to be

Lee Griffith: 00:27:57

addressed in order to stop or kind of reduced toxic

Lee Griffith: 00:28:01

leadership. And what was interesting with the top three

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

things that came out were psychological safety, poor

Lee Griffith: 00:28:08

leadership, role modeling, and the ability to break down

Lee Griffith: 00:28:12

hierarchy. I'm interested in your reflections on those as the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:17

top three, and I suppose what you think will make the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:22

difference about these?

Lee Griffith: 00:28:25

And I don't think any

Lee Griffith: 00:28:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: of them were a surprise to me if I'm honest.

Lee Griffith: 00:28:31

And I think I think the tricky thing is that the answer to

Lee Griffith: 00:28:34

fixing them is doing the things that they've said. So the answer

Lee Griffith: 00:28:40

to creating are so opposite. Yeah, exactly. I couldn't I

Lee Griffith: 00:28:44

couldn't work out the way to explain what I was trying to say

Lee Griffith: 00:28:47

them. But for example, you know, the role modeling thing? Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:49

the one of the ways to help that is better, more positive role

Lee Griffith: 00:28:53

modeling. But actually, it's like, how do you make that

Lee Griffith: 00:28:56

happen? And again, I think it all ties back to that level of

Lee Griffith: 00:29:00

desire in an organization for the leadership team to truly

Lee Griffith: 00:29:03

listen, truly engage and truly take action on the things that

Lee Griffith: 00:29:07

they are hearing to make a difference in that space. I

Lee Griffith: 00:29:10

guess the bit that probably, it made me think about and why

Lee Griffith: 00:29:15

potentially it might not have been a surprise to me is, is

Lee Griffith: 00:29:19

that point I made about sometimes leadership teams

Lee Griffith: 00:29:21

operating in a bubble that isn't particularly well connected to

Lee Griffith: 00:29:25

the wider organization? Because I think my experience having

Lee Griffith: 00:29:30

observed some of the types of organizations that we were

Lee Griffith: 00:29:33

working with in that room, and being part of some of those

Lee Griffith: 00:29:37

myself, throughout my career has definitely been at times the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:41

leadership team thinks those particularly those things were

Lee Griffith: 00:29:45

role modeling really good practice. We're creating a

Lee Griffith: 00:29:48

really psychologically safe environment. You know, we're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:51

operating in a way where we don't believe in the hierarchy

Lee Griffith: 00:29:54

and we're making it really easy for everybody. Like, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

it's quite easy for leadership teams to think they're doing all

Lee Griffith: 00:30:02

of those three things and tick the boxes. And in reality,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:05

what's happening on the ground is quite different. So that bit

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

for me is back to maybe what you were saying in response to the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

previous topic that we were talking about just now is

Lee Griffith: 00:30:15

around. Where's that evidence? How are you triangulating that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:19

if you as a leadership team think that you are operating in

Lee Griffith: 00:30:22

a psychologically safe organization and you're creating

Lee Griffith: 00:30:26

that environment? How are you testing that out to really make

Lee Griffith: 00:30:29

sure that when you're putting that tick in that box as a

Lee Griffith: 00:30:32

leadership team, that that is genuine? So for me, it's that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:36

triangulation of sort of data experience and outcomes, and

Lee Griffith: 00:30:40

being more open to asking questions about those things to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:44

work out what people's experiences are really like.

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

Carrie-Ann Wade: test test and test again. And don't it's not

Lee Griffith: 00:30:52

don't trust the answers, but don't always take the first

Lee Griffith: 00:30:56

answer as the true answer. I think,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:58

yeah, it's like being curious, isn't it? Let's dig a bit more

Lee Griffith: 00:31:01

deeply into that. And we've talked about this. In other

Lee Griffith: 00:31:03

episodes, we're actually sometimes even when you're

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

testing and you're assuring yourself as a leadership team,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:10

you're taking everything on face value. So and actually, data and

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

feedback can be represented in lots of different ways to suit

Lee Griffith: 00:31:19

to suit people's desired desired outcome context. So it gets

Lee Griffith: 00:31:23

Yeah, I do agree, I think it is that testing.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:26

Well, that's a whole other conversation about actually how

Lee Griffith: 00:31:29

often organizations really reassuring, rather than a

Lee Griffith: 00:31:33

showroom? Yeah. We can't open that kind of, not today. So one

Lee Griffith: 00:31:40

thing I find really interesting is that we often say that you

Lee Griffith: 00:31:45

need to call out poor behavior when you see it. And we've said

Lee Griffith: 00:31:47

it, we've said it on this. We've talked, we talked about it

Lee Griffith: 00:31:50

personally. But you know, it's so much easier said than done,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:56

isn't it? Especially if you're in a position where there is no

Lee Griffith: 00:31:59

psychological safety? Or you don't see others calling out?

Lee Griffith: 00:32:05

How do you as leaders start to create the right conditions or

Lee Griffith: 00:32:09

even start role modeling, I suppose, in a way that feels

Lee Griffith: 00:32:14

safe, and, and yeah, shows others that it's okay to be

Lee Griffith: 00:32:19

calling out those poor behaviors.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:21

So some of it, I guess, as a leader is about doing just that.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:24

So when you are in a space where something is happening, that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:27

doesn't align with the values of your organization, or the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:31

behaviors you would expect of people that you kindly and

Lee Griffith: 00:32:34

compassionately and diplomatically, do address that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:38

in the space. And I've had examples within my career where

Lee Griffith: 00:32:42

I've had people who've worked in my team going, oh, you know, I

Lee Griffith: 00:32:45

was in a meeting, and this happened. And it's really upset

Lee Griffith: 00:32:48

a and afterwards, the chair of the meeting was like, Oh, that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:51

person shouldn't have spoken to in that way. And then those

Lee Griffith: 00:32:54

people have questions to me, like, but, but that was the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:58

chair of the meeting sent it to me. So why didn't they if they

Lee Griffith: 00:33:01

saw in that space, and they usually it's often been about

Lee Griffith: 00:33:05

hierarchical seniority, if they've seen it in that space,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:09

and they're chairing the meeting, and they're more senior

Lee Griffith: 00:33:11

than I am. And they can see that the way that person spoken to me

Lee Griffith: 00:33:15

hasn't been in line with our values. Why haven't they said,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:19

like, can we just take a break for a moment, because I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:33:21

think the way that you're communicating is really very

Lee Griffith: 00:33:24

effective, for example, and I don't think that happens, I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:28

don't often feel like people are brave enough, even as more

Lee Griffith: 00:33:32

senior people in the room or the chairs of conversations or

Lee Griffith: 00:33:35

meetings, to sometimes D that and they often think that just

Lee Griffith: 00:33:39

recognizing it with the person afterwards is enough. And in

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

fact, I think that makes it worse, does after the event go,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

Oh, God, that person was really rude to you in that meeting

Lee Griffith: 00:33:47

went, then that's just not acceptable. But obviously, it

Lee Griffith: 00:33:50

is. Because it's just happened. So I do think and have a role as

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

a leader to try and do that. And in a compassionate way that is

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

in line with your own values and the values of your organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

I have seen some organizations do some basic type things like

Lee Griffith: 00:34:08

adding elements as a like substantive item on agendas for

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

meetings, where they actually ask people to reflect on how

Lee Griffith: 00:34:16

they felt that meeting went and share that into the space. And

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

sometimes that lands really badly. But over time, I think

Lee Griffith: 00:34:23

people get used to that being the way that we operate here. So

Lee Griffith: 00:34:26

actually, I am going to reflect back in and and say that so I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:32

think there are things you can do in that space. But it's hard

Lee Griffith: 00:34:35

because people have to feel comfortable responding to that.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:39

Yeah. And I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:41

Carrie-Ann Wade: was going to jump in and say I've been in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:43

similar situations where we've had similar initiatives set up

Lee Griffith: 00:34:47

from for meetings, but it becomes almost an ego stroking

Lee Griffith: 00:34:52

competition for the chair because they're only really

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

interested in what went well. Yeah, yeah. Like don't like the

Lee Griffith: 00:35:00

criticism of when things don't go well. And so if you've not

Lee Griffith: 00:35:05

created the right conditions, when you're asking that type of

Lee Griffith: 00:35:09

question, or if you're doing it for artificial purposes, and

Lee Griffith: 00:35:14

you're not genuinely wanting to learn and develop and change

Lee Griffith: 00:35:17

practice,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:18

then

Lee Griffith: 00:35:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: I take those extra bit of a pinch of salt in

Lee Griffith: 00:35:23

some ways.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:24

And I think you've hit the nail on the head a bit with the

Lee Griffith: 00:35:26

learning point as well, isn't it? It's like, how does an

Lee Griffith: 00:35:28

organization and their leadership team are you showing

Lee Griffith: 00:35:31

your that learning organization? So are you constantly sharing

Lee Griffith: 00:35:35

examples where individuals or teams in your organization have

Lee Griffith: 00:35:39

made an improvement or reflected on something and done that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:43

learning? Because that's all part of creating those

Lee Griffith: 00:35:45

conditions? Isn't it being open to sharing that asking the right

Lee Griffith: 00:35:49

sort of questions, you know, so there's definitely something for

Lee Griffith: 00:35:53

me about about that kind of learning environment that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:35:57

trying to create as an organization that then makes it

Lee Griffith: 00:36:01

easier, I guess, to call out some of that poor behavior.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:04

There's something for me about kind of what relationships are

Lee Griffith: 00:36:07

being created between staff and whether, as an organization, you

Lee Griffith: 00:36:12

have space for staff to be in networks, or groups or develop

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

those relationships where they support each other. Because I

Lee Griffith: 00:36:21

also think there's an element of being able to talk about poor

Lee Griffith: 00:36:28

behaviors, and what might be done about them without always

Lee Griffith: 00:36:31

having the most senior people in that space. Because that can

Lee Griffith: 00:36:34

often be what creates some of that fear. So are there

Lee Griffith: 00:36:38

opportunities for people to talk with their peers about what

Lee Griffith: 00:36:41

their experiences are like, and how they then might want to go

Lee Griffith: 00:36:45

on and raise concerns or challenge in the organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:49

And I've had quite a recent example of that, where there's

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

been a group of, of new staff into the organization and a very

Lee Griffith: 00:36:55

senior person, say, Oh, well, I know, they're having a really

Lee Griffith: 00:36:58

great experience, because they only share good things in the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

WhatsApp group that I'm in and I'm like, but you're, like the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:03

most senior version of them in this organization. So they're

Lee Griffith: 00:37:08

only probably going to share good stuff in that space,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:10

because you're in it. If you weren't in that space, the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:12

conversation might be quite different. Say there's something

Lee Griffith: 00:37:16

like in your off behind your back. Yeah, but there's

Lee Griffith: 00:37:18

something for me in that that, like, actually, you just got to

Lee Griffith: 00:37:20

be really conscious of all these different things as a, as a

Lee Griffith: 00:37:23

leader, and how you maybe start to develop some of these

Lee Griffith: 00:37:27

relationships and opportunities. You know, maybe even with groups

Lee Griffith: 00:37:30

like unions, or people that represent big groups of your

Lee Griffith: 00:37:33

colleagues, how are you being open and transparent with them

Lee Griffith: 00:37:37

and trying to create a dialogue with them, that feels like it is

Lee Griffith: 00:37:40

two way rather than people just sharing things. And the last

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

point I wanted to make was, I think, often, if you are already

Lee Griffith: 00:37:48

in a space, where there is a bit of fear and, and a bit of

Lee Griffith: 00:37:51

toxicity in your environment, some of the opportunities you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

need to create for people to call things out might have to be

Lee Griffith: 00:37:58

anonymous in some way. Because sometimes people feel better

Lee Griffith: 00:38:02

able to do it. If you know, if you're already in a space where

Lee Griffith: 00:38:05

it feels like there's blame in your organization, you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:38:08

gonna often want to be the person that has their name

Lee Griffith: 00:38:10

attached to raising an issue. So actually, are there routes for

Lee Griffith: 00:38:13

people to do that in a more anonymous way that might make

Lee Griffith: 00:38:17

them feel safer, but I do, I do think it's really hard because

Lee Griffith: 00:38:20

I've been there like, I've sometimes, even as a leader are

Lee Griffith: 00:38:24

able to go, oh, this really doesn't sit right with me. And

Lee Griffith: 00:38:27

I've desperately feel the desire to challenge it. So I'm going to

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

do it regardless. To other times when I felt like, I really want

Lee Griffith: 00:38:36

to challenge Yes, but I don't feel like it's gonna be safe for

Lee Griffith: 00:38:38

me to do that. Because there will be a consequence that I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:38:41

not in a position, or the right headspace to want to handle so

Lee Griffith: 00:38:45

actually, I'm gonna let it go. And that feels really

Lee Griffith: 00:38:47

uncomfortable as well, because then that sits with you for a

Lee Griffith: 00:38:49

long time. So if as a senior leader, you don't always feel

Lee Griffith: 00:38:53

able to call it out, you can't expect that people in other

Lee Griffith: 00:38:56

parts of your organization are going to feel comfortable doing

Lee Griffith: 00:38:59

that.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

No,

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: no. And I think that that definitely goes back

Lee Griffith: 00:39:03

to that point around self awareness and knowing how you

Lee Griffith: 00:39:07

can best manage yourself, and and recognizing what will be in

Lee Griffith: 00:39:13

your control and what will be out of your control and how much

Lee Griffith: 00:39:15

you're willing to accept that or said so that it doesn't eat away

Lee Griffith: 00:39:20

at you, as you've just said. And sometimes it's about recognizing

Lee Griffith: 00:39:24

when you need to step away from a physician. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:39:26

certainly where I got to in one one place. It was like, like,

Lee Griffith: 00:39:30

I'm ready. I'm ready to go now because I've done what I can do.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:35

And I've been in senior leadership positions and have

Lee Griffith: 00:39:39

also had this challenge and this push and pull between wanting to

Lee Griffith: 00:39:42

act and not feeling safe to do so. But sometimes, you're you're

Lee Griffith: 00:39:50

a leader and you might be recognizing it in people who are

Lee Griffith: 00:39:52

your peers or who are junior to you and then you've got a

Lee Griffith: 00:39:56

different level of responsibility in the way that

Lee Griffith: 00:39:58

you need to act and role model, you will need to have that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:04

difficult conversation that is evidence base so that it doesn't

Lee Griffith: 00:40:07

go and get personal and all of that kind of stuff. You might

Lee Griffith: 00:40:11

need to get someone in externally to support you

Lee Griffith: 00:40:15

whether it's some form of moderation, whether you invest

Lee Griffith: 00:40:18

in a coach or a mentor for that individual to help them kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:40:22

get to grips with some of the areas that they need to develop

Lee Griffith: 00:40:26

in. And also, as a leader, sometimes you need to recognize

Lee Griffith: 00:40:30

when you might need to exit someone out of an organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:40:33

because they're just not creating the right environment

Lee Griffith: 00:40:36

for those around and for the greater good. Having tried lots

Lee Griffith: 00:40:41

of other avenues to kind of resolve the issues. Sometimes

Lee Griffith: 00:40:47

it's better to say, Thanks, but no thanks, isn't it. And

Lee Griffith: 00:40:51

that's a bit that's key for me there. And what you've said is

Lee Griffith: 00:40:55

that you've explored every other option to try to support that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:58

person to develop, to grow, to create the right conditions,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:04

within the wider context to be able to operate at the level at

Lee Griffith: 00:41:08

which you need them to operate in terms of, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:11

psychological safety, team dynamic and all of that stuff.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:14

And I think if you genuinely have got to the point where

Lee Griffith: 00:41:17

you've tried everything, then sometimes sadly, that is the

Lee Griffith: 00:41:20

only option. And and I think there's sometimes a sense that

Lee Griffith: 00:41:25

that's not creating the right culture, in an organization by

Lee Griffith: 00:41:29

actually supporting people to exit. But for me, I feel like

Lee Griffith: 00:41:33

that is a really compassionate thing to do. Because if you have

Lee Griffith: 00:41:37

been through every other route, to try to create something

Lee Griffith: 00:41:40

different, and that fit is just not there, and it's not working

Lee Griffith: 00:41:44

it I feel like you are having a bigger impact by trying to keep

Lee Griffith: 00:41:49

that person there, just because that feels kinda or less

Lee Griffith: 00:41:53

challenging to do. And my experience in that space, on a

Lee Griffith: 00:41:58

number of occasions has been It is amazing how much impact one

Lee Griffith: 00:42:02

person who maybe isn't aligned with the values of your team or

Lee Griffith: 00:42:07

organization or perhaps isn't the right fit for whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:42:11

reason, or the organization isn't the right fit for them?

Lee Griffith: 00:42:14

And how much of a negative impact that one person can have

Lee Griffith: 00:42:17

on the bigger picture is absolutely astounding. So not

Lee Griffith: 00:42:21

addressing that, even though that feels like a challenge. Not

Lee Griffith: 00:42:24

calling that out, not like trying to find a solution to

Lee Griffith: 00:42:28

that is much more problematic than just letting that play out.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:31

I feel. Yeah, yeah. Because it

Lee Griffith: 00:42:34

creates all kinds of simmering resentments and tensions that

Lee Griffith: 00:42:38

that will impact every other aspect of your interaction with

Lee Griffith: 00:42:41

the rest of your team. If they don't, they will lose respect

Lee Griffith: 00:42:44

for you if you don't tackle some of those things.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:48

And one of the

Lee Griffith: 00:42:49

Carrie-Ann Wade: frustrations, and it is a huge frustration.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:53

We've discussed this privately many times, we possibly have

Lee Griffith: 00:42:59

discussed it on the on the podcast, but it's that thing of

Lee Griffith: 00:43:03

the bullies, the really poor leaders often seem seemingly go

Lee Griffith: 00:43:09

longer and harder in their resolution to carry on as they

Lee Griffith: 00:43:15

are doing. And then what happens is the good people leave because

Lee Griffith: 00:43:20

of all the things you spoke about before it's you know, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:43:22

not right for them to for their mental health or well being or

Lee Griffith: 00:43:25

for whatever reason they decide they need to step out in the

Lee Griffith: 00:43:28

situation because it's not being tackled in any other way. How do

Lee Griffith: 00:43:32

we stop the drain of good people leaving organizations? Because

Lee Griffith: 00:43:36

it's that tipping point issue again, isn't it? And

Lee Griffith: 00:43:38

we'd Yeah, we definitely have talked about this a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:43:41

privately. But I think we have talked about this a couple of

Lee Griffith: 00:43:44

times on on the podcast as well. Aren't you know what, Lee? If I

Lee Griffith: 00:43:48

had the answer to this question, I feel like, well, it's not even

Lee Griffith: 00:43:52

about being a millionaire. I think we just have quite a lot

Lee Griffith: 00:43:54

of happier people working all around us in different

Lee Griffith: 00:43:57

organizations. Because I think the key bit for me, is, I feel

Lee Griffith: 00:44:03

like probably the reason why most of those what we perceive

Lee Griffith: 00:44:07

to be good people leave and stop challenging the bullies, and

Lee Griffith: 00:44:12

stop wanting to work in organizations where those

Lee Griffith: 00:44:15

bullies are going look, and harder. Is that personal toll

Lee Griffith: 00:44:19

that it takes because I feel like you can be a person you can

Lee Griffith: 00:44:23

be a leader, whatever that, you know, really does want to

Lee Griffith: 00:44:27

challenge that poor behavior, that toxic culture that really

Lee Griffith: 00:44:31

wants to like go hard at it and make that positive change for

Lee Griffith: 00:44:35

your organization. But if all you consistently come up against

Lee Griffith: 00:44:40

is resistance and attack and challenge back to you and being

Lee Griffith: 00:44:45

treated a certain way because you've had to be that person

Lee Griffith: 00:44:49

potentially that challenges that bullying, culture that toxicity.

Lee Griffith: 00:44:54

There's only so long that you can keep going before you're

Lee Griffith: 00:44:57

just like this is just exhausting. I'm like, It's too

Lee Griffith: 00:45:01

exhausting. I don't feel like I or my smart maybe. Because often

Lee Griffith: 00:45:06

what I found is there are probably a small cohort of

Lee Griffith: 00:45:09

people that feel the same way that do want to do that

Lee Griffith: 00:45:12

challenge or never in isolation. Actually, you are right, my

Lee Griffith: 00:45:16

experience has definitely been that. But these people just feel

Lee Griffith: 00:45:19

exhausted. So as much as you've maybe created a bit of a support

Lee Griffith: 00:45:24

network for yourselves of people who feel the same way and want

Lee Griffith: 00:45:27

to try and shift the dial and see some positive change in your

Lee Griffith: 00:45:31

organization. If that dial doesn't shift, even just a tiny

Lee Griffith: 00:45:36

bit, you get to the point where you go, I can't have an

Lee Griffith: 00:45:39

influence here in the way that I want to. And actually, what's

Lee Griffith: 00:45:42

happening to me is I just feel exhausted, I've run out of

Lee Griffith: 00:45:45

energy, it's mentally draining for my own personal good, I need

Lee Griffith: 00:45:51

to take myself out of this situation. And that's, yeah, if

Lee Griffith: 00:45:55

any of us could find the answer to that conundrum, I think we

Lee Griffith: 00:45:58

would be operating in such a different space when it comes to

Lee Griffith: 00:46:03

toxic culture and leadership. Absolutely. So I don't I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:46:06

have the answer to that question. Other than in my head,

Lee Griffith: 00:46:08

I started thinking to myself, maybe an action, because we're

Lee Griffith: 00:46:12

definitely wanting to be about action is creating some sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:46:16

support networks for these good leaders, these leaders who are

Lee Griffith: 00:46:19

in that space, who feel like they're consistently pushing

Lee Griffith: 00:46:23

against the tide of the bullies, or the toxic behavior to come

Lee Griffith: 00:46:26

together, and somehow at least, seek some sort of support and

Lee Griffith: 00:46:31

realize that they're not the only ones in that space. But

Lee Griffith: 00:46:33

other than that, I was at a total loss.

Lee Griffith: 00:46:35

Lee, if I'm honest, is

Lee Griffith: 00:46:38

Carrie-Ann Wade: hard. And I suppose we need to recognize,

Lee Griffith: 00:46:41

and I'm just gonna say it, yeah, the health service is one where

Lee Griffith: 00:46:44

we seen time and time again, the wrong types of leaders being

Lee Griffith: 00:46:48

rewarded and promoted into, you know, get moved on from an

Lee Griffith: 00:46:52

organization because they are challenging, but the reward is

Lee Griffith: 00:46:56

they've moved on to a better or bigger job. And therefore, they

Lee Griffith: 00:46:59

then set in and become part of the infrastructure in the

Lee Griffith: 00:47:03

institution. And the and then the role modeling begins, and

Lee Griffith: 00:47:07

so,

Lee Griffith: 00:47:08

so and continue. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:47:11

And is that a

Lee Griffith: 00:47:13

Carrie-Ann Wade: political thing? You know, does it does it

Lee Griffith: 00:47:15

stem from the very center? And the ramifications of the way

Lee Griffith: 00:47:20

that behaves in the field? The trickle down effect? I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:47:23

know, is it? Do we need to have a clearer swipe of some of the

Lee Griffith: 00:47:29

infrastructure around how we govern some of these

Lee Griffith: 00:47:32

organizations? Maybe? But I do, yeah, there needs to be more

Lee Griffith: 00:47:38

people calling out and I recognize it that is hard, hard

Lee Griffith: 00:47:43

to do.

Lee Griffith: 00:47:44

And I think that's interesting, isn't it, that you said about

Lee Griffith: 00:47:46

how you know, the governance and how we kind of regulate maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:47:49

some of this from a leadership point of view, because whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:47:53

sector you're in, whether it's healthcare, or any another, a

Lee Griffith: 00:47:57

lot of the regulatory activity that happens, is done by people

Lee Griffith: 00:48:03

who are in the sector already. So there's a lot of self review

Lee Griffith: 00:48:09

or self reflection, or, you know, you see this a lot in

Lee Griffith: 00:48:12

local government where they ask another local authority to come

Lee Griffith: 00:48:17

in and do a review of what's happening. But it's almost like,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:20

well, how independent is that if you're in the same sector, where

Lee Griffith: 00:48:23

maybe this culture exists across organizations, rather than just

Lee Griffith: 00:48:28

in one particular organization? So there is something for me

Lee Griffith: 00:48:31

maybe there about that level of independence in terms of kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:48:35

reviewing how organizations are operating. And I absolutely get

Lee Griffith: 00:48:39

that people like, well, I want it to be by people who

Lee Griffith: 00:48:41

understand what my sector provides. But actually, from a

Lee Griffith: 00:48:44

leadership point of view, I don't think it needs to be that

Lee Griffith: 00:48:48

like, it doesn't matter if you're running, you know, BP, an

Lee Griffith: 00:48:53

NHS organization or local authority, a political party,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:58

you know, an IT company, there are some principles of really

Lee Griffith: 00:49:01

good leadership and creating really positive cultures that

Lee Griffith: 00:49:04

will be the same regardless of what sector you work in. So

Lee Griffith: 00:49:08

actually, maybe there's some level of needing some sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:10

independent regulatory review of leadership rather than review of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:16

your sector. I don't know. It's something that came to mind when

Lee Griffith: 00:49:19

you were talking about it. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:49:22

I mean, there have been talks about having some kind of I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:49:29

talking specifically about the NHS after some of the issues and

Lee Griffith: 00:49:33

scandals that have hit this year not having some independent

Lee Griffith: 00:49:36

regulation of of NHS managers for example, but he's

Lee Griffith: 00:49:40

drawing up yet the center Yeah. Made up of

Lee Griffith: 00:49:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: not not not wholly I would say that's my

Lee Griffith: 00:49:48

disclaimer. You know, there are good people in every

Lee Griffith: 00:49:50

organization, but there are definitely a few that reputation

Lee Griffith: 00:49:55

Lee are well known for, for not perhaps living the values that

Lee Griffith: 00:49:58

we would expect to have have

Lee Griffith: 00:50:00

Forward Thinking leaders anyway, they're a

Lee Griffith: 00:50:03

soapbox moment.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:08

Carrie-Ann Wade: Say don't have to finish, I'm also really

Lee Griffith: 00:50:12

mindful of the personal toll of dealing with toxic leadership.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:18

And we've touched on this a little bit already firsthand, I,

Lee Griffith: 00:50:23

I've definitely had situations in my career where I've been

Lee Griffith: 00:50:26

triggered because of how a former leader has acted in

Lee Griffith: 00:50:31

certain situations. And then I sit in a similar situation with

Lee Griffith: 00:50:36

a different leader expecting the same outcome and almost that

Lee Griffith: 00:50:39

fear you, you think you're back in that space, and you respond,

Lee Griffith: 00:50:43

and you realize, actually, there's a lot of baggage that

Lee Griffith: 00:50:45

you carry around with you, if you've been in a situation where

Lee Griffith: 00:50:50

you've had, you've encountered that toxic workplace. And often

Lee Griffith: 00:50:57

we focus on the needs of an organization to heal. And we

Lee Griffith: 00:51:01

will look at Fractured development, and how do we, you

Lee Griffith: 00:51:05

know, review and develop a different culture for an

Lee Griffith: 00:51:08

organization where the leadership perhaps is not been

Lee Griffith: 00:51:11

great. But I don't often hear people talk about that

Lee Griffith: 00:51:15

individual impact, and those that have perhaps been up close

Lee Griffith: 00:51:20

and personal with the staff, and that they've got things they

Lee Griffith: 00:51:24

need to work through to so I suppose my question is around,

Lee Griffith: 00:51:28

how do you start to recover? I'm not asking that person on that

Lee Griffith: 00:51:33

journey. But this isn't a therapy session. But I suppose

Lee Griffith: 00:51:38

for people listening who may be like, actually, yeah, I do feel

Lee Griffith: 00:51:40

triggered sometimes in certain situations, and I hadn't quite

Lee Griffith: 00:51:43

put two and two together. I think coach and

Lee Griffith: 00:51:45

a mentor infamy is key to this as an individual find in a safe

Lee Griffith: 00:51:49

spaces to have the conversations that you might need to have

Lee Griffith: 00:51:53

sometimes to uncover some of this because it might be similar

Lee Griffith: 00:51:56

in a way, and you might, as you say, might not quite put the two

Lee Griffith: 00:51:59

and two together, yet to kind of work out what's going on for

Lee Griffith: 00:52:03

you. So I definitely think there's something there for me

Lee Griffith: 00:52:05

about having those safe spaces to have conversations and seek

Lee Griffith: 00:52:09

the support and gain the clarity you might need about what's

Lee Griffith: 00:52:13

happening for you, and then work through what you might be able

Lee Griffith: 00:52:17

to do to stop that things triggering you once you've

Lee Griffith: 00:52:20

worked out what those triggers might be. And I will always go

Lee Griffith: 00:52:23

back to what we talked about in loads of different episodes of

Lee Griffith: 00:52:26

this podcast around your own support network, like have you

Lee Griffith: 00:52:29

got your trusted support network around you that can help you to

Lee Griffith: 00:52:33

work through some of this, if you need to say they that. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:52:37

that would be my initial response to how you start to

Lee Griffith: 00:52:41

work through that recovery as an individual. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:52:45

I agree with both those points, I think there's the need, there

Lee Griffith: 00:52:49

was always part of the realisation was that the issue

Lee Griffith: 00:52:53

was never mine. It was always that other person's it's it was

Lee Griffith: 00:52:56

their problem, it was that it was how they behaved, there was

Lee Griffith: 00:52:59

something underlying in them that created that situation, or

Lee Griffith: 00:53:03

that whatever and I so learning that what's in your control,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:07

it's out of your control what all of that was, was really,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:10

really helpful. And I think the other thing I found useful, was

Lee Griffith: 00:53:15

being able to so agree, you need your support network. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:53:19

perhaps where you do more of the offloading. And the the more

Lee Griffith: 00:53:24

frank discussions, but actually having open discussions with

Lee Griffith: 00:53:28

people. So for example, when I felt triggered by something that

Lee Griffith: 00:53:32

someone had done, which was completely not, then it was my

Lee Griffith: 00:53:35

baggage from a past experience, just saying to that person,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:39

Look, I'm sorry, I reacted in that way, or I'm sorry, you

Lee Griffith: 00:53:42

know, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable or a bit tense

Lee Griffith: 00:53:44

about this, but I just want to explain the context. You don't

Lee Griffith: 00:53:48

need to give them the life story. They might not, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:53:50

that might not be the space. But for them understanding why it

Lee Griffith: 00:53:54

might be uncomfortable to you, I think just helps create that

Lee Griffith: 00:53:57

sense of, they build that trust and connection with that, that

Lee Griffith: 00:54:01

new leader and actually can help you to recognize and appreciate

Lee Griffith: 00:54:07

what the other leader might be offering to you.

Lee Griffith: 00:54:09

Now I think that's a really good tip, isn't it to that, right,

Lee Griffith: 00:54:12

explaining? The reason why you might react a certain way

Lee Griffith: 00:54:16

because you have been triggered is really important. And that's

Lee Griffith: 00:54:19

not just a work thing, is it that's a life thing. And we

Lee Griffith: 00:54:22

probably find that easier to do in personal circumstances with

Lee Griffith: 00:54:26

partners or friends or relatives to kind of go oh, God, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:54:29

sorry, I reacted this way to that, because this has happened

Lee Griffith: 00:54:33

to me before but I'm not really sure we've ever created a

Lee Griffith: 00:54:37

workplace culture where it feels like that's important to do, but

Lee Griffith: 00:54:40

it really is because it's all about people, isn't it and

Lee Griffith: 00:54:43

building relationships with people and that really that's no

Lee Griffith: 00:54:45

different, whatever setting you're in, so I feel like that's

Lee Griffith: 00:54:48

really good advice. Really. I might start to do that more

Lee Griffith: 00:54:50

myself. Thanks.

Lee Griffith: 00:54:54

You don't like feeling really triggered? Well, Anyway, we have

Lee Griffith: 00:55:05

been talking for much longer than we should have. But it just

Lee Griffith: 00:55:09

goes to show that there is, um, we could talk for hours on this

Lee Griffith: 00:55:14

topic. And I'm sure it's one that we're gonna come back to it

Lee Griffith: 00:55:17

time and time again because I do know it's a real life issue for

Lee Griffith: 00:55:21

many people in organizations nowadays. So thank you, Karianne

Lee Griffith: 00:55:26

for your contribution. As always, thank

Lee Griffith: 00:55:30

you for creating a safe space for us to have this conversation

Lee Griffith: 00:55:34

only.

Lee Griffith: 00:55:35

I try. And until next week. Thanks for listening. Don't

Lee Griffith: 00:55:46

forget to hit follow to make sure you get the next episode.

Lee Griffith: 00:55:49

And if today's discussion resonated, please leave a review

Lee Griffith: 00:55:51

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Lee Griffith: 00:55:53

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Lee Griffith: 00:55:56

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:00

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:02

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:05

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:07

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:11

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:15

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Lee Griffith: 00:56:15

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