Taking risks

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it. That is a good and really practical

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thing that people can just start doing tomorrow or whenever after

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they've listened to this episode. So I really love that

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one. I might well do it myself. Actually,

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I think you should

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welcome to how to take the leap the podcast where we challenge

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the myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader

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today, and help you to succeed in post without compromise. I'm

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Lee Griffith, and

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm Carrie-Ann Wade. And together we will be

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your guides question everything we've ever learned about

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leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

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inspiring you to make a real impact in your role. Visit how

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to

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take the lead.com For show notes, past episodes

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and join our community

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Carrie-Ann Wade: enjoy this episode.

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So hello to everyone who is watching us on

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YouTube. It's lovely to have you here. For those who are just

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listening to us. Hello. Just listening to us those who listen

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to you are very welcome. And that is a noble pursuit you are

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doing to take no we don't we don't

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Carrie-Ann Wade: like the just nobody is just an anything.

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You're not just a listener. I feel valued member of our to

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take the lead community,

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I feel privileged that you decided for us to be

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your listening companion whilst you clean the house, do the

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dishes walk the dog drive to or from work, however you might be

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listening, and we'd love to hear how people do listen to us. And

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so you are very welcome here as our substitute community where

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we have a bit of a offload, download, whatever you want to

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call it over there. On each episode, we give little extra

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sneaky bonus stuff and prompts and things we haven't been able

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to talk about. Usually what it's one of us in a bit of a

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reflective mode, having come away thinking about what we've

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been talking about and what the other person said. So we share

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our thoughts over there. So you are very welcome to join us all

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the set of links that you need will all be down here somewhere

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or in the show notes if you are listening on to the podcast app

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of choice. Did I rescue myself?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: You did your best Yeah, you dug yourself back

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out of the hole you started digging well done.

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How are you this fine, fine day carry on? Hi,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm good. Thank you very much Lee. I'm in a sort

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of I did not not reflective headspace but in a like a feel a

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bit like oh, I need to you know been doing a lot of thinking.

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What's what's coming up next for me? How do I need to get on top

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of the things that I need to achieve as a leader and in the

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workplace? So yeah, I feel like I've so far had a good week.

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Thanks very much. How

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are you? Was it was just one episode. You were

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so in awe with my ripping up

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Carrie-Ann Wade: well, it didn't take me it did take me a week to

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pick my chin up off the floor when you said you'd Richard D

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list up. So you know, obviously after I got over that shock, I

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needed a good sugary tea. To sort myself out. I thought Yeah,

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why not start disrupting your own Southie you're thinking what

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you what you want out of life as a leader. So yeah, it's all been

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good. Thank you. How

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about you influenced?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: You are now officially an influencer. So I'm

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gonna say I'm

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good. I'm good. I'm, I'm yeah, I'm enjoying the

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vibe of 2024. So I was about to say 2025 Obviously, I'm not in

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the future. I'm enjoying the vibe of 2024. And good. Just

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yeah, I find finding my feet finding my foot in front of

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things up in the air a little bit, but also not really doing

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any of that either. Because consistency and persistence are

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my buzzwords for this year. So like

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Carrie-Ann Wade: now I think we're well into the year now and

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I'm yet to think what my word of the year is going to be. So

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that'll be my reflection for after this episode.

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Okay, well, we today's episode feels a bit like

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a natural extension to the discussion of last week, which

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was all around disruptive leadership and this one I want

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to explore the topic of taking risks and I think it's one of

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those areas that can be really divisive because some people

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absolutely love taking risks living on the edge that's it

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well i By

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Carrie-Ann Wade: the way, I'm not going to throw myself out of

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a plane or anything like that anytime soon, but it might give

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you some some indication to the level of risk I'm willing to

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take at least in my personal life.

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But others I think it brings out if fear and I was

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gonna say as you rushed into the bathroom but after last week's

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episode I'm gonna keep don't go there. Don't go there.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: change tack change tack quick,

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you know bring brings you out Hyves that let's

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let's, let's say that instead. So it's I think. So I think

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there's there's that element of how people react to the thought

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of taking a risk. And then I think there's the element of

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what people see as risk can vary as well. So inherently, the job

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you do might have high risk. I mean, we've both come from used

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to work in, but we both have a health service background, for

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example, where the decisions that people make and the actions

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that people take, have a life and death consequence. But other

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risks could be financial, reputational, legal, there's all

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sorts of ramifications of the decisions and actions that you

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take. And so I wanted to discuss this topic today, because I

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think it builds on the areas that we touched on last week

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around disruption, but also, because how you manage risk

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directly affects the performance, but you know, your

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performance, your team's performance, your organizational

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performance, and high performing organizations are those who are

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willing to take risks. But how do you get comfortable with

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being that type of leader? When do you know if a risk is worth

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taking? And what if you're just too risky kind of person? Yeah.

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So that's, that's what I want to explore in today's conversation.

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So kicking us off Karianne so that everybody is starting in

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the same place? How have you defined risk in your career?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I guess this is quite an interesting one for me.

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And where I started, when I was thinking about this question was

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risk being about weighing up the potential gains, or the

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potential good, that could be caused through something versus

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the harm? So what's the potential gain versus the

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potential harm of doing or not doing something, sometimes it's

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actually about making a choice not to do something. And that

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can be as risky as choosing to do something. So that was kind

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of where my head first went to, in thinking about that question.

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And then I guess I kind of bought it back down to me, and

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my own career. And from that perspective, I did reflect

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actually, and I feel like from a career point of view, I have

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probably been quite open to risk, because I've been very

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open to new opportunities to pushing myself outside of my

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comfort zone, for going for things and doing things that I

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might not have done, if I was more risk adverse. I'd also say

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that I'm, well, you will know this for sure and say, Well,

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other listeners, probably. But I'm also not a perfectionist,

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which I think sometimes means that I might be a bit more

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spontaneous or a bit quicker to perhaps put things out there

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before they are fully formed in terms of an idea, a way of

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working something that I'm hoping to achieve. And I would

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say that especially so in, on the business side of my career,

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and in the collaborations that I'm part of, and I feel like I

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do that almost as a way of forcing myself to do the things

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that I might otherwise feel were too risky. Because if I've

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declared them in public, then I need to be accountable for that

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and, and make them happen. So that's kind of been one of the

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ways that I've dealt with risk in terms of risk to kind of my

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development and growth as a coach, as a leader in in my

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career. And I have to say, that personally, as I've progressed

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in my career, I think I felt more able to take risks, the

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more I thought about what's the worst thing that can happen. If

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I do or don't do this, what is the worst possible outcome? And

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as long as to me, the level of harm isn't incomprehensible or

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dangerous or going to cause death and as you said, working

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in healthcare, a lot of the time is a life or death kind of

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sector to work in. If it's not dangerous then for me there's

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always been something about why why would I not try this to see

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what happens? I guess the one area as I was reflecting that

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I'm probably I probably am more risk adverse to you than other

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areas there has definitely been when it's come to money. So

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things that have been finance related so whether that salaries

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so personal to me or to other people that I'm working with in

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my team, whether that's about budget that's been the area

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probably where I've been is kind of laissez faire about things.

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And I reflected on whether or not that's been because a lot of

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my career has been in the public sector. And for me, that's other

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people's money. So that's a tap of the taxpayers money that I'm

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having to be responsible and accountable for. So has that

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made me think that the risk, there probably needs to be more

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measured and weighed up in a different way? So that was kind

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of the rambling thoughts that came to mind when, when I was

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thinking about defining risk in my career today, and I'm not

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sure if that is where you were expecting some of that to go.

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But that is what kind of came into my head,

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it was definitely a few things that I want to

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unpack as we carry on with the conversation. But to bring it

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back to a an organizational level. Why do you think it's

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important for leaders to be more aware of risk and taste taking

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risks? And I do say this as two separate things, because I think

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that they are, I think you have risks in what you do day to day.

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Yeah. But then you've got those bigger strategic risks related

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to decisions and actions that you you, you will have to take

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as a leader to take an organization forward.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, I think you're right to separate the

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two, because there's the inherent risk that comes through

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leading an organization, whatever that organization might

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look like for your organization, a lot of which might be outside

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of your own control. So risk can happen, because something is

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happening in society that is causing that potential risk to

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your organization that, you know, going back to finances

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that might be a cost of living crisis, and what's the risk to

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your organization of operating in that space, versus the risks

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that you might decide to take some progress your organization

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to respond to something to make an improvement. So I definitely

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think that separation from an organizational viewpoint of risk

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is an important one to take. I think in terms of risk, as an

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organization, it's important for you to be aware of and

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considering risk, because it will be about how do the things

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that are happening? What is the potential impact they will have

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on our organization? And is there an opportunity to ready

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ourselves for any of that and prepare for it. So whether

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that's in an emergency planning capacity, whether that's in a

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business continuity space, whether that's in succession

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planning, what you know, whatever those risks might look

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like? Are you as an organization ready to take action if you need

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to, to help mitigate some of that risk and make that risk,

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have less of a negative impact for your organization? I guess

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in terms of the other element about sort of risk management

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and that feeling a bit different. There's something for

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me there about what's your appetite as an organization and

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leadership team, to take him risk. If that is going to help

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you progress, your strategy and the direction of travel, you

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want your organization to go in because I guess there's that,

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you know, the age old adage isn't there that if you do

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everything, if you keep doing everything the same, you can't

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expect a different outcome. So if as an organization, you're

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hoping for a different outcome, there might be a level of risk

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that your leadership team, your board, your organization needs

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to be willing to take. And you need to have had conversations

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about that, so that you're actually making decisions, from

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a place where you all understand each other's point of view

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around how you're going to be forward. And

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as you mentioned earlier, there's there's also

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the decision making around if we do nothing, we take no action

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that in and of itself, awareness of risk because organizations if

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they don't progress, they don't stay still definitely they go

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backwards in many ways. So there is that thing around, yes, we

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might find comfort in keeping doing what we've always done.

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And this is why there's that link with the disruptive

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leadership and discussion we had last week. But you need to have

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that awareness that that no action has risk as much as

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taking an action or a decision. Yeah. Sorry that.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: We wait for me to respond because

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I absolutely agree with you intends to go like I

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say something. You then like bounce off of it. We interact,

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but

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I just I was because I agreed with you. And I

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was thinking oh yeah, Lee's right there. And then all right.

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Sorry. I was I was mulling over what you were saying. And then

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my silence was consent as it I agree with what I agree with the

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point that you've just made sorry, Lee.

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That's fine. That's fine. I'm only trying to

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run a bloody plus podcast there.

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I'm so one of the things that I do with my clients are disc

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assessments which people might have heard. And it's a

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psychometric profiling tool that I find really helpful to

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understand communication preferences, and how teams work

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with each other and how individuals react in certain

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situations, particularly in such situations of stress. And I know

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you've read the book surrounded by idiots, other people might

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have read it to you. And if you have, you'll be familiar with

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the different color types that they use, which are the same

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colors that we use in disc. So what's clear if you've done the

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test, or if you've read the book is that people will naturally

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have certain types of preferences or strengths or

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things that they'll call on in certain areas. And then they'll

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have to learn how to lean into the upper areas. And as we

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always say, like any strength becomes a weakness if overuse,

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so you have to learn how to balance them all. So in desk in

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the kind of colors, a D, a red tie, is someone who's pretty

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directive, they like to get on and take action, they're more

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likely likely to feel really comfortable to take that risk.

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Or they'll take actions actually, without even thinking

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through risks. And so, yeah, the positives of that type of person

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is that they tend to get stuff done, and get it done quickly.

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The flip side of that is that they can land an organization in

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hot water because they move without thinking too much. And

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then you've got, I suppose the opposite side of that, that

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personality type, which is a see a blue type, where they're

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careful and cautious, and they focus on the compliance. And

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they're going to be the ones that are super aware of risk.

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And they're likely to be trying to mitigate them as much as

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possible for the organization. So that means in their mind,

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they're protecting an organization, but to others that

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might be seen as stifling innovation. They might be

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delaying and slowing things down, it can be really

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frustrating for people having to interact with that. And

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obviously, you've got varying degrees of people that sit in

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between that. So I'm interested Karianne in what's been your

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approach to risk and how comfortable you've felt in

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taking I know, you've mentioned some of this already in your,

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your approach. But that was kind of the, for a personal lens,

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when you come to like leading an organization leading a function

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sitting around an executive table, how comfortable Have you

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felt? And what type of role Have you played, I suppose when

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looking at those types. So

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I think for me, there's definitely something

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about the importance of diverse thinking, and approaches. So I

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think what you've demonstrated with the couple of examples

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you've given us, we call them the red and the blue, and then

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at different ends of the spectrum, different extremes.

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What if I made you laugh about it?

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Because you said the red and the blue, I've

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instantly got an ear worm, which was a red car and a blue car,

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head on face.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Nisha another nice reference. If the bingo

Lee Griffith: 00:18:19

cards out, there's, there's one for you that I was like, what if

Lee Griffith: 00:18:24

I said, Now the car in the blue car had erase? Absolutely. Do

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you remember that, and it's making me want to eat chocolate

Lee Griffith: 00:18:30

now. So I've tried not to be distracted by the idea of a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:34

Milky Way. So I think that was available. But I mean, if and if

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any of them would like to sponsor us feel free. I'm sorry,

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I've totally lost my train of thought. Now you have. I was

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thinking about the importance of that diverse mix of thinking and

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approach in your leadership team. So I'm not a red, and I'm

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not a blue, if I go by those kind of scores and descriptions

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in discourse surrounded by idiots. But it's important for

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me to have that mix in the team that I work in, because I think

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that's what leads to the best types of discussion and

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challenge around the risks that you might need to take as an

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organization. Because if you had a leadership team that was full

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of people who weren't really that bothered about the risk,

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and we're just going to crack on and do it that would be

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potentially hugely dangerous and damaging. If you had a

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leadership team in an organization that we're all

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people who were completely cautious and risk adverse, you'd

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probably never take a risk ever, and your organization would miss

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out. So I think we've mentioned in other episodes of the podcast

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that that diversity of thought and diversity of approach in a

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leadership team being really important. So I think the teams

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that I have seen operate is best the right way set the best teams

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I've seen in terms of considering and thinking about

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risks. have been the teams that do have that real mix in. So I

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see my role in a team often as the person who will provide some

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of that constructive challenge and hold the mirror up and say,

Lee Griffith: 00:20:14

Hang on a minute have, do we feel comfortable that we have

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considered everything here? And let's just do that check in. So

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I feel like that's where I've been in terms of being in some

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of these leadership teams. Some of the more challenging teams

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I've seen are those ones where the dominant approach and

Lee Griffith: 00:20:34

leadership style is, is one or the other, and nothing in

Lee Griffith: 00:20:38

between, actually. And so yeah, sorry, because I was still

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thinking about Milky Way, I'm not sure I'm sure I'm probably

Lee Griffith: 00:20:45

waffling now, but it's not full on risk all the time. And it's

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not playing it safe all the time. And the challenge, I think

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has been when you've just got a roomful of people who are very

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similar in terms of their type.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:00

Well, I was thinking, as you were talking

Lee Griffith: 00:21:02

through there, what I wrote down was psychological safety, and

Lee Griffith: 00:21:06

how much risk taking is an important outcome of having a

Lee Griffith: 00:21:17

psychologically safe organization. And again, if we

Lee Griffith: 00:21:20

go back to high performing organizations, performing teams,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:25

they have high levels of psychological safety, that they

Lee Griffith: 00:21:30

feel comfortable to challenge each other, in taking risks. And

Lee Griffith: 00:21:35

it's and it's not about them, you know, shouting down each

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

other's ideas, but it's the constructiveness of that, and

Lee Griffith: 00:21:41

feeling able to raise questions and whatnot. And so you're

Lee Griffith: 00:21:44

right. And if you're in a position where there is a

Lee Griffith: 00:21:48

domineering force, there's unlikely to be safe, safe

Lee Griffith: 00:21:52

circumstances in which that can be challenged, and then the

Lee Griffith: 00:21:56

whole kind of concept of risk. And what you'll probably get in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:59

that type of situation is over types, hunkering down to their

Lee Griffith: 00:22:05

type even more, because that is where they know that's their

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

comfort. They're not they won't be willing to kind of spread

Lee Griffith: 00:22:12

their wings a little bit into the other. So yeah, that's a

Lee Griffith: 00:22:14

really interesting point. What does good risk taking look like

Lee Griffith: 00:22:19

to you? In the teams where

Lee Griffith: 00:22:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: I've seen it work well, and felt that it's

Lee Griffith: 00:22:25

worked? Well, it's definitely been about open conversation. So

Lee Griffith: 00:22:30

maybe speak to your point about that psychological safety, open

Lee Griffith: 00:22:33

conversation, feedback and discussion, where you really

Lee Griffith: 00:22:39

feel like what you're talking about is weighing up the pros

Lee Griffith: 00:22:42

and cons of risk. And it's about doing their due diligence, so

Lee Griffith: 00:22:48

not just doing things on a hunch, or like instinct. And

Lee Griffith: 00:22:52

sometimes instinct is a good thing. Please don't get me

Lee Griffith: 00:22:54

wrong, but I think in the context of what we're talking

Lee Griffith: 00:22:57

about, it is about that due diligence. So they balance in

Lee Griffith: 00:23:02

with intuition. Yes, absolutely. I think that is a good kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:23:06

scale, actually, to get the balance right with. So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:23:10

that that counts, whether you are talking about it

Lee Griffith: 00:23:12

organizationally, or if you are thinking about your own personal

Lee Griffith: 00:23:16

self as an as a leader and your own individual career, it is

Lee Griffith: 00:23:20

about that way and up, kind of what's the feedback telling me

Lee Griffith: 00:23:23

versus, you know, what do I think is the right thing to do

Lee Griffith: 00:23:27

here. So I think that level of openness and transparency in

Lee Griffith: 00:23:31

conversation is important. And going back to what you said

Lee Griffith: 00:23:33

about disc and you're sort of profiling, understanding how the

Lee Griffith: 00:23:37

people who are decision making in the room with you actually

Lee Griffith: 00:23:40

operate and communicate is really important to be able to

Lee Griffith: 00:23:44

have that constructive conversation and constructive,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:48

constructive challenge, because I think if you don't take the

Lee Griffith: 00:23:51

time to understand where other people are at, you're never

Lee Griffith: 00:23:54

going to have the level of debate, you potentially need to

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

talk about risk. And I think organizations that genuinely do

Lee Griffith: 00:24:02

actually talk about things like risk management risk appetite,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:05

and check in on that as a leadership team. You know, that

Lee Griffith: 00:24:09

that's where I feel like we're in a good space, because we're

Lee Griffith: 00:24:11

not ignoring risk. We're actually having a transparent

Lee Griffith: 00:24:14

conversation about what risk means for our organization and

Lee Griffith: 00:24:18

how we might mitigate risk, whether we have an appetite to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:22

take risks. So it's that kind of language as well, that I've

Lee Griffith: 00:24:25

seen, kind of actually in play, where it feels like that's,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:30

that's a good thing for the team and the organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:33

Yeah, I think I don't disagree with what you've

Lee Griffith: 00:24:37

said. And I would add to it that there's something for me about

Lee Griffith: 00:24:40

how you align risk and in the things that you were talking

Lee Griffith: 00:24:46

about this absolutely is what would be happening, aligning

Lee Griffith: 00:24:49

that risk to your organizational purpose. Around Testing, testing

Lee Griffith: 00:24:55

it with the Insight is almost that checking in with What do

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

the people you serve think's most important? So you're taking

Lee Griffith: 00:25:03

risks around the right things for the good of the organization

Lee Griffith: 00:25:07

and the people that you serve? Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:09

Carrie-Ann Wade: So that alignment needs to be there with

Lee Griffith: 00:25:11

like, actually, what is it that you're trying to achieve? What

Lee Griffith: 00:25:13

are you here to do?

Lee Griffith: 00:25:14

Yeah. And then I think there's something for me

Lee Griffith: 00:25:17

about the measures. So yes, you need some elements of

Lee Griffith: 00:25:23

information to help you with decision making around whether

Lee Griffith: 00:25:25

to take a risk or not. But you also have got to be clear of how

Lee Griffith: 00:25:28

are we going to know whether this risk is a worth continuing

Lee Griffith: 00:25:33

with or stopping or, you know, have we seen what we've wanted

Lee Griffith: 00:25:36

to see by taking the actions that we take. And then there's

Lee Griffith: 00:25:40

something about how you manage people's expectations along the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:44

way of taking risk. And being clear that and again, it goes

Lee Griffith: 00:25:48

back to other conversations we've had about failures, okay,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

we'd like it, just because we're taking this risk doesn't mean it

Lee Griffith: 00:25:57

has to work. As long as we've got mitigations. And down, we're

Lee Griffith: 00:26:01

not always real and actual harm. And, and so sometimes we might

Lee Griffith: 00:26:06

decide we need to retreat, or we might decide we need to take a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:09

different tact or, or whatever that might be. But having that

Lee Griffith: 00:26:13

clarity in stepping into the decision is, is really, really

Lee Griffith: 00:26:18

important. And I think then knowing along the way, what my

Lee Griffith: 00:26:23

checkpoints, when will I know if it's in wherever we go, or, or

Lee Griffith: 00:26:28

stop or pause or whatever. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:31

Carrie-Ann Wade: And that measurement, isn't it? How do

Lee Griffith: 00:26:33

you know, then how do you have a conversation? And how do you

Lee Griffith: 00:26:35

measure whether the risk was worth taking or not? So you

Lee Griffith: 00:26:38

might take the risk, but actually did it achieve the

Lee Griffith: 00:26:40

outcome that you were hoping that would and the intent that

Lee Griffith: 00:26:44

you wanted, and actually, if you don't do that evaluation piece,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:48

then you're actually going to just probably be in a team that

Lee Griffith: 00:26:52

not takes risk for risk sake, but that is taking risks without

Lee Griffith: 00:26:55

actually knowing whether there's any benefit of take that risk,

Lee Griffith: 00:26:58

and you just read too many risks in this, then you just risk

Lee Griffith: 00:27:02

repeating that again, without knowing whether it's gonna work.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:05

I was definitely too many risks in that was getting tongue tied,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:08

I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:08

was getting the we need a policy about policies to

Lee Griffith: 00:27:11

write MSA kind of vibe. So we've touched on the pros and the

Lee Griffith: 00:27:19

challenges in risk taking, how do you start as an individual to

Lee Griffith: 00:27:24

identify where you might sit on a risk scale that say, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:29

zero, you've you wrap yourself up in cotton Worland. And those

Lee Griffith: 00:27:35

Poppy things, I can't think of the word bubble wrap bubble wrap

Lee Griffith: 00:27:40

Carrie-Ann Wade: the crate in some sort of couture fashion

Lee Griffith: 00:27:42

item here made of cotton wool and bubble wrap, zero

Lee Griffith: 00:27:46

10 is you know, you're jumping out of the

Lee Griffith: 00:27:48

airplane with no parachute and you don't really care. Like how

Lee Griffith: 00:27:51

do you figure out where where the scale of risk use it?

Lee Griffith: 00:27:56

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think intuitively, you probably know,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:59

from just hearing you describe that if I'm honest, Lee, you

Lee Griffith: 00:28:02

probably know if you're a one to five or a 10 or somewhere maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:28:05

a little bit in between, I think it's about considering having

Lee Griffith: 00:28:12

insight into the way in which you take and make decisions is

Lee Griffith: 00:28:16

definitely an important part like of working out how risk

Lee Griffith: 00:28:21

adverse or how much risk appetite that you might have. As

Lee Griffith: 00:28:25

always, there's something about seeking feedback, because

Lee Griffith: 00:28:28

actually, you might perceive yourself to be a hugely risky

Lee Griffith: 00:28:31

individual and very open to taking risks. And you might ask

Lee Griffith: 00:28:34

some of your nearest and dearest colleagues, it'd be like, Oh,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:37

come off it you like always got the safety harness on. Say,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:40

there's usually the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:41

ones that go on so risky, like, you're just wearing

Lee Griffith: 00:28:45

socks today. Fred,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:48

Carrie-Ann Wade: is like that. When people describe themselves

Lee Griffith: 00:28:50

as quirky. I'm like, Are you allowed to describe yourself as

Lee Griffith: 00:28:52

quirky? I'm not sure you're not if you call yourself? Yeah. So

Lee Griffith: 00:28:57

there is something for me about kind of seeking that feedback

Lee Griffith: 00:29:00

and test it testing that out. And I guess it's kind of how

Lee Griffith: 00:29:04

many times do you ask yourself the question of like, what's the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:07

worst thing that can happen here? If I make this decision?

Lee Griffith: 00:29:11

And how many times do you feel comfortable or uncomfortable in

Lee Griffith: 00:29:16

those conversations and decisions you might be having

Lee Griffith: 00:29:18

with yourself or with your wider leadership team? And when I talk

Lee Griffith: 00:29:22

about comfort, I guess my caveat would be, I don't mean around

Lee Griffith: 00:29:26

your professional integrity, because often if you feel like

Lee Griffith: 00:29:29

you're kind of professional integrities feeling a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:29:33

uncomfortable. There is probably something in there about this

Lee Griffith: 00:29:36

not being quite right. But there's some I mean, more about

Lee Griffith: 00:29:39

like, are you just coasting along because it feels safest or

Lee Griffith: 00:29:42

easiest or are you pushing that and feeling that level of

Lee Griffith: 00:29:46

discomfort about maybe just doing something a bit different

Lee Griffith: 00:29:49

and taking that risk? Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:51

And that's the link with the disruption piece

Lee Griffith: 00:29:54

that we spoke about last week, isn't it? I'm if you're perhaps

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

someone who is risk averse. And you think that maybe you are

Lee Griffith: 00:30:04

holding back your organization or your team? How do you start

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

to shift your thinking and approach?

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think there's something for me about being

Lee Griffith: 00:30:15

able to purposefully ask yourself that, for me, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:30:18

always back to like, what's the worst thing that can can happen?

Lee Griffith: 00:30:21

Because I think often, again, I don't want to talk too much

Lee Griffith: 00:30:24

about what we talked about last week. But it's that fear, isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:30:26

it? There's a, there's a fear of taking the risk. So I think if

Lee Griffith: 00:30:29

you are able to pose the question to yourself and to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:33

others about what's the worst thing that can happen here, if

Lee Griffith: 00:30:36

we make this decision, I think that's a really good starting

Lee Griffith: 00:30:40

point to start testing, how much risk you might be prepared to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:46

take and where you might be able to push the boundaries of your

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

natural comfort state of risk for sure. And I think there's

Lee Griffith: 00:30:52

something for me, you talked about the sort of evidence,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:54

didn't you and seek in that feedback, there is something

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

about making sure that you are able to weigh up the pros and

Lee Griffith: 00:31:02

cons of that risk by by having that intelligence to hand to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:07

kind of de that checkpoint. So I think that that's the bit that

Lee Griffith: 00:31:11

might give you the layer of comfort to be able to be

Lee Griffith: 00:31:14

uncomfortable about taking a risk, because you're like,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:16

actually, I've seen that there's some evidence behind this. And

Lee Griffith: 00:31:19

I've been able to kind of look at that and review that before I

Lee Griffith: 00:31:22

take the risk.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:24

Yeah, yeah. I think they're really important.

Lee Griffith: 00:31:27

And it's there's quite a lot of reframing there, isn't it that

Lee Griffith: 00:31:30

you have to do to, to step into what might feel more comfortable

Lee Griffith: 00:31:34

for you? I think the other thing I'd add is this, trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:40

understand and recognize when you're being too attached to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:44

something because often we won't take risks. If we're really

Lee Griffith: 00:31:49

invested in whatever it is, that's, that's there that's

Lee Griffith: 00:31:53

already there, or that's happening, you're more likely to

Lee Griffith: 00:31:57

try different things, if you don't have the same investment

Lee Griffith: 00:32:01

in it, which I know can be a hard thing to consider,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:07

particularly when you think about, well, the investment of

Lee Griffith: 00:32:11

an organization is its purpose and its mission, and you want to

Lee Griffith: 00:32:13

align everything to that. I'm not saying that's what you throw

Lee Griffith: 00:32:16

throw, you don't throw that out of the way and go, Well, I can't

Lee Griffith: 00:32:20

be invested in that anymore. But it's more about like, we get

Lee Griffith: 00:32:24

invested in the mundane is the wrong word. But I can't think of

Lee Griffith: 00:32:29

another one. But like, structure and process and again, like the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:36

disruption disruptive episode, you know, we've always done it

Lee Griffith: 00:32:40

this way, and you get too attached to the stuff that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:44

doesn't really matter.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:45

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, there's a comfort in that, though, isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:32:47

there? That's your comfort place. Because and I often have

Lee Griffith: 00:32:50

seen this in leadership teams where actually rather than focus

Lee Griffith: 00:32:54

on the bigger picture, and the risk you might need to take to

Lee Griffith: 00:32:57

get there. Because people feel nervous about taking that risk.

Lee Griffith: 00:33:02

It's easier to get an A we use this phrase a lot as well. It's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:05

easier to get into the weeds of things like the structure and

Lee Griffith: 00:33:08

operational processes, and then using that almost as a buffer or

Lee Griffith: 00:33:12

a shield to go well, we we can't do it. Because actually, there's

Lee Griffith: 00:33:14

all this stuff underneath it would all need to change and it

Lee Griffith: 00:33:17

will be too difficult and people weren't, you know, so I do think

Lee Griffith: 00:33:20

there is something there about you get into that space, because

Lee Griffith: 00:33:23

that's where you feel comfortable. And that's probably

Lee Griffith: 00:33:25

a sign that you're not embracing your inner risk taker, I guess,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:29

in terms of being in that space, for sure. And what

Lee Griffith: 00:33:33

if you work for someone who you think is too

Lee Griffith: 00:33:37

risky? And we've we've all worked with people like this,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:40

I'm sure how do you approach that without you being labeled

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

as the killjoy, or the clipboard carrying bureaucrats or whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:33:50

they might call you?

Lee Griffith: 00:33:53

Carrie-Ann Wade: That is a tricky one, isn't it? Because

Lee Griffith: 00:33:55

because some of that might be about the psychological safety

Lee Griffith: 00:33:58

point that you raised. Because if you're in a leadership team

Lee Griffith: 00:34:01

where it feels psychologically safe, then you are obviously in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:05

a better position to be able to challenge some of that than if

Lee Griffith: 00:34:09

you're in a team where you think, Oh, God, if I challenge

Lee Griffith: 00:34:11

it, there's a consequence for me, and I'm really stick. I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:34:14

taking too much of a personal risk here to challenge it. But I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:18

think it goes back to me for like, what's the evidence that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:21

you can present? So can you have a conversation or bring into the

Lee Griffith: 00:34:25

conversation? Okay, if we take that decision? Are we all in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:30

this room now? So you make it less about the individual?

Lee Griffith: 00:34:33

Because it will be a collective decision for your leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:34:36

team? Are we all in this room now comfortable with what the

Lee Griffith: 00:34:39

potential consequences might be? And actually, it might then be

Lee Griffith: 00:34:43

your role to put into that space, the consequences that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:47

nobody's yet mentioned? Because obviously, it might not be in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:50

that risk takers best interest to look at all the consequences

Lee Griffith: 00:34:53

because they're only focused on the one that they are hoping to

Lee Griffith: 00:34:56

get from it. So I think there's ways you can do it in a measured

Lee Griffith: 00:35:00

unbalanced way that maybe makes it less, feel less like it's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:03

about an individual. But I also think it's back to that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:07

understanding their preference and their type. And looking at

Lee Griffith: 00:35:11

how you might have to adapt your communication style or approach

Lee Griffith: 00:35:15

to be able to kind of reach them in a way that will be meaningful

Lee Griffith: 00:35:20

for them and maybe get themselves to kind of check in

Lee Griffith: 00:35:22

on on kind of how they're operating. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:25

I was having flashbacks as you were talking

Lee Griffith: 00:35:28

to, oh, good or bad. In between? I don't think sometimes, you

Lee Griffith: 00:35:34

know, people would probably say that I was someone that was

Lee Griffith: 00:35:38

stifling people taking the actions they wanted to take

Lee Griffith: 00:35:42

that. I would say that they were, well, I won't say what I

Lee Griffith: 00:35:47

would say about them here.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:51

Carrie-Ann Wade: Because like a EastEnders moment, cliffhanger,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:55

why don't you why not.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:57

But the risks that they were saying, like hadn't

Lee Griffith: 00:35:59

gone through the process? Yeah. And I remember some service

Lee Griffith: 00:36:02

changes that people wanted to take and the driver for the

Lee Griffith: 00:36:07

service change was multifaceted, but the primary one that was

Lee Griffith: 00:36:11

pushing certain individuals appetite to just effing do it

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

was a financial one. And I had to bring up the other risks in

Lee Griffith: 00:36:24

if we took this particular approach and how, in the end, I

Lee Griffith: 00:36:28

managed to kind of get everyone to see sense. And we found a way

Lee Griffith: 00:36:32

through that helped meet a common purpose that we all had,

Lee Griffith: 00:36:37

but it was going back to, what is it that we're striving to do

Lee Griffith: 00:36:41

as an organization? And most importantly, what is it our

Lee Griffith: 00:36:44

stakeholders will expect of us? And posing that question in

Lee Griffith: 00:36:48

there, you're right about psychological safety? I did feel

Lee Griffith: 00:36:51

in that instance, safe enough, or I just didn't care how they

Lee Griffith: 00:36:56

reacted, because I felt so passionate, which is sometimes

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

can can over can top trump the Yeah, the safety element of it.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:06

But yeah, I think I think it's remembering that purpose

Lee Griffith: 00:37:11

stakeholder outcome that you're striving for. And

Lee Griffith: 00:37:14

Carrie-Ann Wade: actually, if you can bring the voice of

Lee Griffith: 00:37:15

others into that room, sometimes that is hard to argue against.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:19

So actually, if if the strength of opinion and voice and

Lee Griffith: 00:37:23

evidence is one way, that individual who might be totally

Lee Griffith: 00:37:29

set on a different course of action, regardless of the risk

Lee Griffith: 00:37:31

will find it very difficult to continue without properly having

Lee Griffith: 00:37:36

a debate and conversation about the evidence that's been, you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:39

know, put into the space.

Lee Griffith: 00:37:41

And I think that I just referenced people to the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

difficult conversation episode that we had as a way to think

Lee Griffith: 00:37:49

about how you might frame feedback to someone who you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:52

perceive is being too risky or taking undue risk when they

Lee Griffith: 00:37:56

don't, they don't need to be. And it goes, your evidence was

Lee Griffith: 00:38:01

the thing that we spoke about a lot in that episode was Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:38:03

yeah, to me. And I suppose my penultimate question is one

Lee Griffith: 00:38:08

around when you feel that the level of risk that you're

Lee Griffith: 00:38:14

comfortable with is not aligned with your peers or the board,

Lee Griffith: 00:38:20

how do you start to navigate that and take people with you?

Lee Griffith: 00:38:26

And and some of it would probably picked up in the two

Lee Griffith: 00:38:28

other exams? Yeah, of not risky enough and too risky. But is

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

there anything else that you would do in that situation? For

Lee Griffith: 00:38:34

me,

Lee Griffith: 00:38:35

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's about how able are you to have that open

Lee Griffith: 00:38:37

and transparent communication and conversation about that. And

Lee Griffith: 00:38:42

actually, they would like you've just you've just said it in your

Lee Griffith: 00:38:44

example, there will sometimes be that point in time where

Lee Griffith: 00:38:48

actually, that misalignment is maybe because your own values or

Lee Griffith: 00:38:54

integrity feels like it's being challenged, or you potentially

Lee Griffith: 00:38:57

don't feel like people have weighed up all of the pros and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

cons of something and done that due diligence. And there might

Lee Griffith: 00:39:04

just be that point where you do just need to raise your hand and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:07

flag that in a conversation. So I think your ability to be able

Lee Griffith: 00:39:12

to say you don't feel comfortable with something and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:14

then give that explanation as to why you don't feel comfortable

Lee Griffith: 00:39:18

is really important. But equally, I think that personal

Lee Griffith: 00:39:21

insight into where might that misalignment be coming from is

Lee Griffith: 00:39:27

also crucial. Because if that misalignment is coming just

Lee Griffith: 00:39:30

because it's not in your nature to feel like you want to take a

Lee Griffith: 00:39:34

risk and it just feels genuinely personally uncomfortable for

Lee Griffith: 00:39:38

you. That's not always a reason to challenge and not take it it

Lee Griffith: 00:39:42

might be a reason to challenge yourself and your thinking, but

Lee Griffith: 00:39:45

actually if that misalignment is coming because you are working

Lee Griffith: 00:39:48

through the potential consequences for the

Lee Griffith: 00:39:51

organization, again, my alarm bells are ringing because

Lee Griffith: 00:39:54

there's a red flag here, because we haven't talked about the

Lee Griffith: 00:39:57

impact on this group of people on our reputation on our

Lee Griffith: 00:40:01

finances, whatever it may be. I think that's the point where

Lee Griffith: 00:40:04

it's the onus is definitely on you, as a leader to bring that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:07

into the conversation.

Lee Griffith: 00:40:10

I think and I think the word vulnerability

Lee Griffith: 00:40:13

came to mind as you were talking, because there's

Lee Griffith: 00:40:15

something about as a leader being comfortable with showing

Lee Griffith: 00:40:20

our vulnerabilities. And particularly when it comes to

Lee Griffith: 00:40:24

big decision making like this, although these might not

Lee Griffith: 00:40:27

necessarily all be big decisions. But when it comes to

Lee Griffith: 00:40:30

how different people might feel about taking certain actions or

Lee Griffith: 00:40:35

inactions or decisions that, you know, showing your vulnerability

Lee Griffith: 00:40:39

in that space is can be really helpful, important. Put whatever

Lee Griffith: 00:40:45

word there, you want way to earn trust to people. And that's,

Lee Griffith: 00:40:50

that's what's key. If you're going to navigate board and peer

Lee Griffith: 00:40:55

discussions and take people with you is trying to find that that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:59

common sense and connection, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So

Lee Griffith: 00:41:05

to wrap things up, how do you embrace your inner risk taker?

Lee Griffith: 00:41:12

Carrie-Ann Wade: My top tip would be back to that, ask

Lee Griffith: 00:41:14

yourself, What's the worst thing that can happen? If I do? Or

Lee Griffith: 00:41:17

don't do this? Whatever the thing? Is the decision you make

Lee Griffith: 00:41:20

the action, you're going to take it like just ask yourself that

Lee Griffith: 00:41:25

question. And as you're answering that question, with

Lee Griffith: 00:41:28

your feedback from other intelligence sources, as well,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:31

that I think that will help you to work through whether or not

Lee Griffith: 00:41:34

you're comfortable taking taking that risk. So that would be my

Lee Griffith: 00:41:38

sort of starting point. I think for people who may be more risk

Lee Griffith: 00:41:41

adverse.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:42

I love that, I would say just a practical thing

Lee Griffith: 00:41:45

that you might want to do to reflect as a reflection exercise

Lee Griffith: 00:41:50

to understand how risk averse or risk, pro risk you are,

Lee Griffith: 00:41:55

whatever, the opposite. I

Lee Griffith: 00:41:57

Carrie-Ann Wade: know, I don't actually know what the opposite

Lee Griffith: 00:41:59

I say risk adverse a lot. But I'm like, What's the opposite of

Lee Griffith: 00:42:02

being risk? At risk? To know Yeah, probably red acre Pro,

Lee Griffith: 00:42:07

is to and it's something that I suggest to

Lee Griffith: 00:42:10

leaders quite often is to keep a bit of a log of decisions that

Lee Griffith: 00:42:14

you're making during a week or a month. And having that

Lee Griffith: 00:42:18

reflection piece of like, what was the hope in this? Taking

Lee Griffith: 00:42:23

this decision? Did I you know, did I go through the steps was I

Lee Griffith: 00:42:27

did I think through apps out I hate the phrase outside of the

Lee Griffith: 00:42:32

box. But you know, you can challenge if once you start to

Lee Griffith: 00:42:35

get clarity in the decisions you're being asked to make,

Lee Griffith: 00:42:37

there's so much you can do with that as a piece of information

Lee Griffith: 00:42:41

to understand yourself as a leader. And one of them would be

Lee Griffith: 00:42:46

understanding the types of risks you're being asked to take or

Lee Griffith: 00:42:50

that you're perhaps suggesting you make love it that is a good

Lee Griffith: 00:42:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: and really practical thing that people can

Lee Griffith: 00:42:56

just start doing tomorrow or whenever after they've listened

Lee Griffith: 00:42:58

to this episode. So I really love that one. I might well do

Lee Griffith: 00:43:01

it myself. Actually.

Lee Griffith: 00:43:02

I think you should. Anyway, it's lovely to

Lee Griffith: 00:43:10

talk to you on this topic. Thank you to everyone that's watched

Lee Griffith: 00:43:14

or listened and head over to substack for some fun, Yes, last

Lee Griffith: 00:43:18

day. Yeah. I don't know what they are yet. But But there'll

Lee Griffith: 00:43:22

be there by time this is published. And yeah, a comment

Lee Griffith: 00:43:28

we'd love to do to get involved in this discussion. So let us

Lee Griffith: 00:43:30

know what you think about risk. Let us know how risky you think

Lee Griffith: 00:43:36

your organisation's and leaders in your organisation are. Let us

Lee Griffith: 00:43:39

know what you do to step into your inner risk taker. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:43:44

Anyway, till next week. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to

Lee Griffith: 00:43:51

hit follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's

Lee Griffith: 00:43:54

discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple

Lee Griffith: 00:43:57

podcasts.

Lee Griffith: 00:43:58

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

Lee Griffith: 00:44:00

can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

Lee Griffith: 00:44:04

build your network of like minded leaders. Visit how to

Lee Griffith: 00:44:07

take the lead.substack.com To find out more. And if you want

Lee Griffith: 00:44:10

to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your

Lee Griffith: 00:44:13

organization. Get in touch by dropping us an email how to take

Lee Griffith: 00:44:16

the lead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials. Until next week.

Lee Griffith: 00:44:21

Get out there and take the leap