What do we need to unlearn to lead well?

Lee Griffith: 00:00:00

And I've got a lovely Bear Island gin and tonic

Lee Griffith: 00:00:03

so so put really annoying ice cubes in yes sorry char editor

Lee Griffith: 00:00:07

apologies

Unknown: 00:00:08

yeah sorry

Lee Griffith: 00:00:09

to complain about

Lee Griffith: 00:00:10

Carrie-Ann Wade: sorry Scott I'll maybe try not to drink it

Lee Griffith: 00:00:13

on the way through I have a big slurp now like and then not have

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any till the end when we do a little cheers they go That's

Lee Griffith: 00:00:22

That's my promise sorry Scott sorry.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:26

Welcome to how to take the lead the podcast where

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we challenge the myths and stereotypes of what it means to

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be a leader today and help you to succeed in post without

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compromise. I'm Lee Griffith

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie-Ann Wade and together we

Lee Griffith: 00:00:38

will be your guides question everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith: 00:00:41

about leadership sharing our experiences along the way and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:44

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role visit how to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:48

take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and

Lee Griffith: 00:00:51

join our community

Lee Griffith: 00:00:52

Carrie-Ann Wade: enjoy this episode. Welcome listeners to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:58

what is oh I love the jazz hands there for those who not watching

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on YouTube Lee was doing some very fabulous jazz hands in a

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very fabulous outfit I have to say well,

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so can we just have a moment first per said

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outfit because this you might recognize that I paid a bloody

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fortune for for Karianna wedding and asked to wear suits

Lee Griffith: 00:01:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: I do recognize and it looks gorgeous. And it's

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bringing back all the memories.

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I thought we were we got shortlisted for an awards

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recently.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Just Just lay drop that in there.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:36

I know. And I thought perfect I'll get another

Lee Griffith: 00:01:40

way and my pound per weight ratio can be reduced by wearing

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its knees out thing and then that was too trendy and I

Lee Griffith: 00:01:47

couldn't wear this It wasn't to say like it's it's yeah, she

Lee Griffith: 00:01:53

Carrie-Ann Wade: well, because Welcome to What is the last

Lee Griffith: 00:01:56

episode of this series. So we've gone celebrate every like Ender

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series kind of wrap party mode where we just get dressed up.

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Let's have a little drinky poo. We haven't done that in a long

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while on how to take the lead episode so I'm quite glad that

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we've bought this celebratory drinks back and mentioned in my

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wedding another little plug for my wedding which was the last

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series of take the lead we were talking about having the wedding

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I think or just having had the wedding and this one it was last

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year how has that happened? Getting ready for the first

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wedding anniversary soon.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:34

I've got a lovely burger Island gin and tonic. So

Lee Griffith: 00:02:38

so put really annoying ice cubes in yes sorry. Editor apologies

Lee Griffith: 00:02:42

Yeah, sorry to complain about sorry Scott.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'll maybe try not to drink it on the way

Lee Griffith: 00:02:47

through I have a big slap now like and then not have any till

Lee Griffith: 00:02:54

the end when we do a little cheers. There you go. That's

Lee Griffith: 00:02:56

That's my promise. Sorry, Scott. Sorry. So yes, so our last

Lee Griffith: 00:03:02

episode of this series of how to take the lead or the Bear Island

Lee Griffith: 00:03:05

vibes going on with the dress and the gin which I'm loving and

Lee Griffith: 00:03:08

we coordinate No, we didn't. So that's just a weird little thing

Lee Griffith: 00:03:12

that has happened a bit. Okay, folding into one another. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:03:16

we did promise that something we attended recently that we do do

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stuff separately as well. We don't always come as a pair but

Lee Griffith: 00:03:22

you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:03:24

with with the modern day chanson de choco

Lee Griffith: 00:03:27

brothers, you name your duo. Yes.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:30

Carrie-Ann Wade: And you Yeah, whatever. Do you have choice

Lee Griffith: 00:03:32

you'd like maybe share that on socials get in touch tell us

Lee Griffith: 00:03:36

which, which famous duo you'd most likeness to I'm always

Lee Griffith: 00:03:39

going front and deck but that's only for the photoshoot moments.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:42

So if you know you know, if you've been on the instinct,

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you'll know that but anyhow, we digress, we digress. That happy

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end of series five going on here. And and before I get into

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the main topic of conversation, obviously just reminding people

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that we are on all of the podcast platforms. So whichever

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is your favorite. You can listen to us there you can subscribe so

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we drop straight into your inbox when new episodes land. We are

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also on YouTube if you'd like to watch us along the way rather

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than just listen. And we are on substack so there will be an

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article with every episode as well as some in between musings,

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which will give you more exclusive content thoughts, all

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of that kind of jazz over on substack and on the socials. Do

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let us know which duo we most remind you of is going to be the

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Chuckle brothers isn't it? Over on our Instagram you can catch

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up with us there leave a comment DM so I think that's everything

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I need to share by way of starting have I forgotten

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anything they

Lee Griffith: 00:04:50

no no all this good. Fabulous.

Unknown: 00:04:52

I just feel you're very regal sat there. I feel like I

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don't know I feel like you're Yeah, I'm loving it.

Unknown: 00:05:00

I'm loving this vibe. It's like a new kind of world Karianne

Unknown: 00:05:03

dynasty kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:05:07

vibe going on. But then yeah, my path and my path.

Unknown: 00:05:11

Sorry. Oh, slight end of term vibes here. So,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: so we will get on with this last conversation

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of series. And it's, I don't I don't want to say a weird one

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because that's not really selling it to listeners. But

Unknown: 00:05:31

what we what we were planning to talk about is what so we're all

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about the learning, we're all about the improving, but what we

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wanted to talk about was what you might need to unlearn in

Unknown: 00:05:44

order to be a better leader. So that is the topic of

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conversation for this final episode. And I think it's

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potentially quite easy to get a bit set in our ways. As a

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leader, we talk a lot about pushing outside of our comfort

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zone, but most of us know where we feel like we operate,

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possibly at our best, but definitely are our most

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comfortable. And as listeners will know, we are all about

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challenging that status quo. And we think it's really important

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to consider what things we might need to unlearn in order to

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better ourselves in that leadership space. So that's what

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we're going to talk about this episode and Lee I'm gonna throw

Unknown: 00:06:28

it over to you like sort of pen at the ready poised to give us

Unknown: 00:06:31

some good content here.

Unknown: 00:06:33

What exactly do we over promise and

Lee Griffith: 00:06:36

under deliver Now come on, we're

Unknown: 00:06:37

going for it. We're going through what what

Unknown: 00:06:39

exactly do we mean by this phrase,

Unknown: 00:06:43

Carrie-Ann Wade: unlearn because I'm hearing it a bit more now in

Unknown: 00:06:45

the leadership space, but it does feel like a sort of term

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that maybe people haven't been used to hearing so so what do we

Unknown: 00:06:52

mean by unlearning,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:54

judo? Just as an aside, you're right. I've heard

Lee Griffith: 00:06:57

this term a lot. And I've been reflecting on it a lot. But I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:00

used it for the first time about probably about nine to 10 months

Lee Griffith: 00:07:04

ago, and I hadn't really heard it. Well, I hadn't heard of it

Lee Griffith: 00:07:07

before. Because I did think I invented that word.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:11

Carrie-Ann Wade: Well say straight from the horse's mouth.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:13

And this is going to be good response to the question,

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because I was doing some like reflection,

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coaching practice. And I was like, God feels like I've always

Lee Griffith: 00:07:23

got to unlearn what it is that I was taught. And I genuinely

Lee Griffith: 00:07:26

thought that this was a brand new word that I had created. And

Lee Griffith: 00:07:30

I was, you know, going back to the thought leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:33

Carrie-Ann Wade: just sit you like, well ahead of the time.

Lee Griffith: 00:07:36

And then it's like, literally everywhere. And now Now I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:07:39

know how I feel. So I was loving the word. Now I'm feeling like,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:43

oh, is it just one of those corporate BS? buzzwords, and I

Lee Griffith: 00:07:48

don't like it. And I'm feeling really torn, because like,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:51

there's a pride that I invented. I was about Yes, I was about to

Lee Griffith: 00:07:54

say it's this level of feeling torn, because you're a bit

Lee Griffith: 00:07:57

disappointed that you didn't invent, invent it. So obviously

Lee Griffith: 00:08:00

thinking about the bias that you might have in that, but for the

Lee Griffith: 00:08:04

sake of this episode, we've gone with unlearn. So what do we mean

Lee Griffith: 00:08:08

by the term unlearn? And when you first introduced that to the

Lee Griffith: 00:08:12

leadership worldly? What did you mean specifically by unlearning?

Lee Griffith: 00:08:20

Well, I think for me, it's always been about

Lee Griffith: 00:08:25

giving myself permission to let go of old thinking, or actions.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:34

In order to make space for new stuff. And kind of referencing

Lee Griffith: 00:08:38

the point use you said at the beginning about, we're all about

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the learning and taking on new things, you know, our brains,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:46

our emotions, every will like a computer hard drive will get

Lee Griffith: 00:08:49

full up, we've got to let some stuff go to let the new things

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come in. Otherwise, we've got overwrite or delete, or

Lee Griffith: 00:08:57

something's got to happen in order for us to develop I think,

Lee Griffith: 00:09:01

the

Unknown: 00:09:01

show you did an issue. You didn't invent this, because

Unknown: 00:09:04

I really loved that. I was like, Yes, Lee,

Unknown: 00:09:07

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm loving this whole analogy. Absolutely. For

Unknown: 00:09:10

me, it was about that evolution, say, you know, it might be about

Unknown: 00:09:14

your mindset, it might be about changing behaviors. And it

Unknown: 00:09:17

doesn't always mean stopping something, I don't think

Unknown: 00:09:21

although it absolutely might. But it is about that growth and

Unknown: 00:09:25

that evolution towards a new, hopefully better way of being.

Unknown: 00:09:30

And I was

Lee Griffith: 00:09:31

I was struggling a little bit with this with the

Lee Griffith: 00:09:34

notion of you know, you're you're letting go of old

Lee Griffith: 00:09:38

thinking, because I think when we say that we often think, oh,

Lee Griffith: 00:09:42

it's out of date and outdated. And we when we talk about

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leadership, challenges and change things you want to

Lee Griffith: 00:09:48

change. We talk about the old way of bleeding and we do mean

Lee Griffith: 00:09:50

that in the kind of outdated modes and I don't necessarily

Lee Griffith: 00:09:53

mean that when I say old here, because I don't really think

Lee Griffith: 00:09:57

that that is the case, but I think it's It's about making

Lee Griffith: 00:10:01

sure we don't get stuck, or we're being held back by things.

Lee Griffith: 00:10:06

And because that's the way we've been taught, we should do it. So

Lee Griffith: 00:10:10

there's a whole like neuroscience thing behind it,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:13

which is, if you keep doing the same things over time, you

Lee Griffith: 00:10:16

become resistant to change. And so working on undoing or

Lee Griffith: 00:10:22

unlearning helps you to create the little neural pathways,

Lee Griffith: 00:10:27

reset them. Yeah. And we get to grow and helps us be more

Lee Griffith: 00:10:31

innovative and all of that kind of stuff. So, and

Lee Griffith: 00:10:34

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's a bit like that. It's the whole habit

Lee Griffith: 00:10:35

forming thing, isn't it with the neuroscience that actually if

Lee Griffith: 00:10:38

you want to give up a bad habit, you almost have to create a new

Lee Griffith: 00:10:42

one to take the place and redirect the pathway to stop you

Lee Griffith: 00:10:46

from having the gin and tonic with the ice cubes in or

Lee Griffith: 00:10:49

whatever, whatever it might be. And the more times you practice

Lee Griffith: 00:10:52

it, the more that becomes the kind of more updated way of

Lee Griffith: 00:10:56

doing things. So say yeah, brilliant. I love that. Thank

Lee Griffith: 00:10:59

you, Lee. So we

Lee Griffith: 00:11:00

like the Apple operating system where we just

Lee Griffith: 00:11:03

like variations just slightly improving every time. Yeah. And

Lee Griffith: 00:11:07

loving for we get dumped by our husbands and replaced by a

Lee Griffith: 00:11:09

younger model of like, when Apple bring out a new version. I

Lee Griffith: 00:11:12

don't know why I said that. No, I've had that happen. And can I

Lee Griffith: 00:11:16

just say,

Unknown: 00:11:16

No, this time round? Yeah.

Unknown: 00:11:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it. Say it's only taken how many series

Unknown: 00:11:24

for my title oversharer to come out. So moving this on before

Unknown: 00:11:31

this turns into a therapy session, rather than something

Unknown: 00:11:34

more useful for our listeners. I thought it might be helpful

Unknown: 00:11:38

though this may well become therapy. To be honest. I thought

Unknown: 00:11:41

it might be helpful, perhaps to give some examples from our own

Unknown: 00:11:45

experiences, about things. And this is to make it tangible. And

Unknown: 00:11:50

something that people can feel and see is real. What things

Unknown: 00:11:55

might we have had to unlearn in our careers. So I'm delving a

Unknown: 00:11:59

bit here and digging Lee, so feel free to share what you're

Unknown: 00:12:02

most comfortable sharing. But have there been specific things

Unknown: 00:12:06

that you can almost pinpoint gain? Yeah, I had to unlearn

Unknown: 00:12:09

that in my leadership journey so far. And I'm sure there might be

Unknown: 00:12:12

more to come in the future. But yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:14

well, you Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I

Lee Griffith: 00:12:20

think there's, there's almost been like three stages, I'd say

Lee Griffith: 00:12:25

to my unlearning, in my life, and so there's the kind of the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:31

corporate life where I had to unlearn all the things I'd

Lee Griffith: 00:12:35

learned about leadership, which is kind of what we try and do

Lee Griffith: 00:12:38

with this podcast in a way, which is stuff that was out of

Lee Griffith: 00:12:44

day, or attitudes and behaviors and stereotypes and all of that,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:48

which I you know, and I've talked about this before, on the

Lee Griffith: 00:12:51

podcast that I thought was how I had to behave. So you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:55

you've you've you get the wrong role models and all of that. So

Lee Griffith: 00:12:58

I had to do some unlearning. And then what what type of leader I

Lee Griffith: 00:13:01

wanted to be, I think, also, just from a professional point

Lee Griffith: 00:13:04

of view, you know, we know professions evolve and adapt.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:08

And back in the day, when we were both starting out in our

Lee Griffith: 00:13:12

communications careers, yeah, everyone wanted to spin doctor

Lee Griffith: 00:13:15

and wanted someone that had managed the media. And now,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:19

yeah, and you'd say, you've got to do unlearning, to think and

Lee Griffith: 00:13:22

talk like that to satisfy certain audiences. So so I've

Lee Griffith: 00:13:26

got that, then I've got my, I suppose my now business life.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:32

And I've had to do loads of unlearning, in that I had to

Lee Griffith: 00:13:36

unlearn how not to do a nine to five work in like, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:13:42

what conditioning of I get up at nine work to five, I mean, you

Lee Griffith: 00:13:46

obviously leadership roles, you do a lot longer than that. But I

Lee Griffith: 00:13:50

had to unlearn and redefine what what that looked like for me.

Lee Griffith: 00:13:55

When I did my coach training, you get taught very specific

Lee Griffith: 00:13:59

models, you get assessed to deliver coaching in a very

Lee Griffith: 00:14:02

particular way. And then, actually, when you go out into

Lee Griffith: 00:14:06

the real world, as you start to implement that and you test it

Lee Griffith: 00:14:10

on real clients, you realize that what you get taught can be

Lee Griffith: 00:14:15

a bit too rigid and a bit too directive. And so you know, as I

Lee Griffith: 00:14:18

said, when I came up with the epiphany and invented the word

Lee Griffith: 00:14:22

unlearning, it was when I was doing some, some mentor coaching

Lee Griffith: 00:14:26

and my mentor, and we would we would like challenging what it

Lee Griffith: 00:14:31

meant to show up as a coach and I was like, God, I really have

Lee Griffith: 00:14:34

to unlearn what I got taught in my training about this

Lee Griffith: 00:14:37

particular issue. And so so there's been those really

Lee Griffith: 00:14:41

practical things. And then I think the third area of

Lee Griffith: 00:14:45

unlearning is the real deep mindset stuff. So limiting

Lee Griffith: 00:14:50

beliefs or views that I've had, that have perhaps held me back

Lee Griffith: 00:14:55

from growing as a person so questioning whether I'm good

Lee Griffith: 00:15:00

Enough questioning why should I be the one doing this? Because

Lee Griffith: 00:15:03

someone else is more expert, all of those types of things. I've

Lee Griffith: 00:15:06

had to unlearn some of those narratives that might be

Lee Griffith: 00:15:08

playing. I was No, no,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:12

Carrie-Ann Wade: no, no, sorry, I was only because I was making

Lee Griffith: 00:15:14

notes, because so much of what you said, resonated with me,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:17

particularly around the corporate and the business

Lee Griffith: 00:15:19

element of unlearning, and gearing them concurrently. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:24

I was gonna say that it's definitely been one for me that

Lee Griffith: 00:15:26

as you were talking, I was actually yeah, I can really

Lee Griffith: 00:15:29

resonate with that, because having to balance having a

Lee Griffith: 00:15:32

corporate leadership role, and then also running my own

Lee Griffith: 00:15:36

business and having a different leadership role in that space

Lee Griffith: 00:15:39

has felt quite challenging. And, and I guess, also the sector

Lee Griffith: 00:15:44

that I work in for my day job, you know, it's a bit about being

Lee Griffith: 00:15:48

a political and, you know, working in the public sector,

Lee Griffith: 00:15:51

which means I've had to sort of think very differently, in that

Lee Griffith: 00:15:55

space found how I show up for my business and putting myself out

Lee Griffith: 00:15:58

there a bit more. And I've sort of had to unlearn some of what

Lee Griffith: 00:16:02

I've naturally maybe thought I better keep some of that opinion

Lee Griffith: 00:16:05

to myself, because that's maybe not going to go down so well in

Lee Griffith: 00:16:08

the corporate space. So that definitely definitely resonated

Lee Griffith: 00:16:12

with me, alongside what you said about kind of questioning

Lee Griffith: 00:16:15

yourself and your validity of being in that space. They sort

Lee Griffith: 00:16:19

of that, you know, why would anybody want to listen to what

Lee Griffith: 00:16:22

I've got to say, kind of thing, there was definitely some

Lee Griffith: 00:16:25

unlearning there. And when, when I posed the question to myself

Lee Griffith: 00:16:29

and reflected on it, a really big part of it, for me, has been

Lee Griffith: 00:16:32

around my sort of people pleasing tendencies, and

Lee Griffith: 00:16:35

actually having to unlearn my desires to want to keep

Lee Griffith: 00:16:40

everybody happy and be liked by everyone, as I've progressed

Lee Griffith: 00:16:44

through my leadership career, because actually, it's not my

Lee Griffith: 00:16:47

job to necessarily be liked, as a leader, it's my job to lead.

Lee Griffith: 00:16:51

And sometimes I have to take decisions that other people are

Lee Griffith: 00:16:55

not going to be happy with. And I've got to unlearn my own

Lee Griffith: 00:17:00

personal desires around wanting everybody to think I'm a nice

Lee Griffith: 00:17:03

person. So. So yeah, there's definitely been stuff that I've

Lee Griffith: 00:17:07

had to unlearn along the way, as well. So thank you for sharing.

Lee Griffith: 00:17:11

I know sometimes we don't always get quite so direct with the

Lee Griffith: 00:17:14

personal questions, but I thought it would be helpful for

Lee Griffith: 00:17:17

listeners to hear a bit about our own experiences, to maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:17:21

help frame some of their own reflections around what they

Lee Griffith: 00:17:24

might want to consider learning

Lee Griffith: 00:17:26

it because it's a buzzword, perhaps still catching

Lee Griffith: 00:17:30

on in certain places. And people might think, well, unlearning,

Lee Griffith: 00:17:34

does that mean I've done something wrong? And yeah, it's

Lee Griffith: 00:17:36

not it's we're not coming at this from a from a point of

Lee Griffith: 00:17:39

doing anything wrong. It's about the evolution, isn't it? Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:17:44

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think that's a lovely segue into what

Lee Griffith: 00:17:46

I wanted to touch on next, which is actually how do we know that

Lee Griffith: 00:17:50

we might need to unlearn something partly because maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:17:53

we are like, this is a buzzword that we've not really heard or

Lee Griffith: 00:17:57

talked about before for ourselves, but also because

Lee Griffith: 00:18:00

there might be that like, well, slight resistance to it, because

Lee Griffith: 00:18:04

you're assuming it's about I've done something badly, or I've

Lee Griffith: 00:18:07

done something wrong. So how do you think as leaders, we kind of

Lee Griffith: 00:18:10

get that sense that we need to start unlearning certain things?

Lee Griffith: 00:18:15

I think that, for me, a lot of stuff always goes

Lee Griffith: 00:18:20

back to what's the outcome that you're seeking? And the

Lee Griffith: 00:18:22

question, I've said this on other episodes, and similar

Lee Griffith: 00:18:26

question, which is, what do I need to do differently to make

Lee Griffith: 00:18:30

it happen, and in those insights will be the things you will need

Lee Griffith: 00:18:34

to change. And it might be thinking it might be behaviors,

Lee Griffith: 00:18:37

it might be actions, and that might involve some level of

Lee Griffith: 00:18:42

unlearning. And so I think in recognizing that you need to

Lee Griffith: 00:18:48

change in some way to make something happen will bring a

Lee Griffith: 00:18:55

level of insight and focus on the things that you might want

Lee Griffith: 00:19:00

to tackle in terms of unlearning. But it is a work in

Lee Griffith: 00:19:04

progress. And like any habit change, it will be gradual. And

Lee Griffith: 00:19:09

you might not realize that you haven't even done unlearning.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:12

Until a new habit is formed. You know, there might be things that

Lee Griffith: 00:19:16

you're doing now, that actually you you are subconsciously

Lee Griffith: 00:19:21

unlearning old ways and practices. But you just haven't

Lee Griffith: 00:19:25

couched it as that and then you'll suddenly realize, oh,

Lee Griffith: 00:19:27

yeah, actually, my whole mindset has shifted around this. And

Lee Griffith: 00:19:32

then finally, I think there's something around. There are

Lee Griffith: 00:19:36

other signals that you can be alert to so and it is quite

Lee Griffith: 00:19:41

similar to what we were talking about in the in the risk

Lee Griffith: 00:19:44

conversation and the disruptive leadership conversation. So

Lee Griffith: 00:19:50

being alerted to maybe assumptions that we're making

Lee Griffith: 00:19:54

and questioning why do we think like that, why do we act like

Lee Griffith: 00:19:58

that? Right? Viewing the mistakes that we might have

Lee Griffith: 00:20:02

made. So I know we've said it's not about doing something wrong.

Lee Griffith: 00:20:04

But sometimes it could be that I'm sorry, wrong, but just

Lee Griffith: 00:20:07

perhaps not got the outcome that you had hoped for and learning

Lee Griffith: 00:20:11

from that. And it might be from taking risks. And in doing so

Lee Griffith: 00:20:18

you've got to do something different along the way. And it

Lee Griffith: 00:20:22

could be seeking views and input from other people that aren't

Lee Griffith: 00:20:30

the normal people who are in your circle of influence, or

Lee Griffith: 00:20:34

your support network, who can perhaps the highlight to you

Lee Griffith: 00:20:38

where you might need to focus on on learning. And we'd see that

Lee Griffith: 00:20:42

particularly in diversity, and equity issues, and challenging

Lee Griffith: 00:20:49

your own biases around particular things, you need to

Lee Griffith: 00:20:51

go into different spaces to understand what you might need

Lee Griffith: 00:20:55

to unlearn in terms of what you think, yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:20:58

Carrie-Ann Wade: Well, I couldn't have put it better

Lee Griffith: 00:21:00

myself lead, because the things that I'd had written down in my

Lee Griffith: 00:21:04

notes were around me, that's good. were written down in my

Lee Griffith: 00:21:07

notes around that insight, feedback. And fundamentally, are

Lee Griffith: 00:21:12

we achieving what we set out to achieve. So if you've set out

Lee Griffith: 00:21:15

with an intention to achieve something, and you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:21:17

achieving it, there might be something different that you

Lee Griffith: 00:21:20

have to do and some of that might be about unlearning a

Lee Griffith: 00:21:23

behavior or a certain way of thinking, in order to move you

Lee Griffith: 00:21:27

to that space to achieve it. So absolutely. And, and sometimes I

Lee Griffith: 00:21:31

think there's even a bit of your own gut feeling instinct in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:34

there that actually, this this way of operating as a leader,

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

for some reason just doesn't sit as comfortably with me now and

Lee Griffith: 00:21:41

it's causing a level of discomfort, which means I might

Lee Griffith: 00:21:44

need to have a rethink about my approach in that space.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:48

And I you know, we've we've talked about this in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:51

previous episodes, but the unknown, I've referenced it

Lee Griffith: 00:21:56

earlier in this episode, but I can really clearly see my kind

Lee Griffith: 00:22:01

of past career that moment in time where what I thought was

Lee Griffith: 00:22:05

true in terms of the leader, I've shown it to be just stopped

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

sitting right with me. And I had to take that moment to go right,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:12

how am I going to show up authentically? What do I need to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:16

do differently? And how do I start to challenge my thinking,

Lee Griffith: 00:22:22

my reactions, how do I challenge reactions of other people as I

Lee Griffith: 00:22:26

go through that process, and all of that was it was an unlearning

Lee Griffith: 00:22:31

and unraveling, it's like you know, when you if you do knit in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:34

your frog in your frog in the jumper, because it's never gonna

Lee Griffith: 00:22:37

fit or whatever.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:39

Carrie-Ann Wade: Some knitting terminology that I've just

Lee Griffith: 00:22:41

learnt there because I am not a knitter, but I'm like, wow, I

Lee Griffith: 00:22:44

maybe want to be Froggen. Who knew that was a thing in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

knitting?

Unknown: 00:22:49

So, yeah, so now we've got a vision of what Froggen

Unknown: 00:22:54

might actually be. Anyhow, not

Lee Griffith: 00:22:56

like the other word that animals do is not.

Unknown: 00:23:01

Right, Moving swiftly on.

Unknown: 00:23:04

Carrie-Ann Wade: We have gotten you can tell we're on end of

Unknown: 00:23:07

term happy vibes here.

Unknown: 00:23:09

We like woohoo. Last episode. It's party time. I'm

Unknown: 00:23:14

Chad two sips of a beer. Look what's happened such I said,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:17

I said in one of the earlier episodes that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:19

lightweight or used, I've turned into a lightweight Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:22

absolutely insane. Because

Unknown: 00:23:24

because of the

Unknown: 00:23:26

Carrie-Ann Wade: sound effect of the ice cubes, I'm keeping it

Unknown: 00:23:28

all under control, but only had the one big slap at the start

Unknown: 00:23:31

gonna be

Lee Griffith: 00:23:31

my unraveling. And Dan be off again. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:23:35

you're frog in episode. So we have focused a bit

Unknown: 00:23:40

Carrie-Ann Wade: on the individual and quite personal

Unknown: 00:23:43

sort of unlearning. And because this is the end of series

Unknown: 00:23:47

episode, and we start the series, most times with a kind

Unknown: 00:23:51

of general, few thoughts about the state of leadership today, I

Unknown: 00:23:56

thought it might be an opportunity to bring it back to

Unknown: 00:23:58

that wider kind of leadership piece by asking you, Lee, for

Unknown: 00:24:03

your thoughts about what you might think leaders need to

Unknown: 00:24:07

unlearn for 2024. And I know I'm, well I know, I'm

Unknown: 00:24:12

potentially creating one of the biggest li soapbox moments ever.

Unknown: 00:24:16

But I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna go there because we've

Unknown: 00:24:19

we've got views and opinions and we're happy to share them.

Unknown: 00:24:23

That's why we do the podcast. So in terms of that broader

Unknown: 00:24:26

leadership on learning for 2024 What are your thoughts Lee,

Lee Griffith: 00:24:30

I really had to try and contain myself. Before I

Lee Griffith: 00:24:34

could focus on and say, I've got a few few ideas. I'm going to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:38

try not to get on my soapbox, okay, because it's not going to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:41

serve my well being

Lee Griffith: 00:24:43

Carrie-Ann Wade: great. Being boundaried and thinking about

Lee Griffith: 00:24:46

what you need as a leader in this tea. So I'm loving that

Lee Griffith: 00:24:49

good role modeling. And

Lee Griffith: 00:24:51

so I think for me, saying things to win popularity

Lee Griffith: 00:24:55

contests, and even that unlearning around And I need to

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

stay polite, and I need to try and people, please, we I think

Lee Griffith: 00:25:04

we need leaders to be standing up and acting with integrity.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:09

All the more now. And so for me, I think that's that's a real

Lee Griffith: 00:25:14

thing around unlearning, what what does it mean to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:25:17

popular leader? And does that mean I have to do things that

Lee Griffith: 00:25:23

don't align with values, etc, etc. I think there's something

Lee Griffith: 00:25:28

for me about unlearning the concept of time. And this is a

Lee Griffith: 00:25:34

big thing for me this year, like how we view time, manage time,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:39

and I'm seeing more and more impatience in people who want

Lee Griffith: 00:25:45

everything now. And moving on to the next thing really quickly.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:50

And I questioned like, what for? Like, why, why is why are we

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

creating this urgency about stuff, when it's gonna sit in

Lee Griffith: 00:25:58

your inbox for a week before you get to it, and all you're doing

Lee Griffith: 00:26:00

is creating stress for your teams. And so I think we need to

Lee Griffith: 00:26:04

unlearn this, this concept of how we manage ourselves and our

Lee Griffith: 00:26:09

people, and it links with that self leadership piece. And I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:15

also think it links with unlearning what it means to be

Lee Griffith: 00:26:19

in control, and feeling comfortable with letting go of

Lee Griffith: 00:26:24

control. And stepping into letting people be adult stop

Lee Griffith: 00:26:33

lists. Just stop treating people like we're the we're the parent

Lee Griffith: 00:26:36

and they're the child. And as leaders, we know best we don't.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:41

Boy, we don't. And we can see that with some of the people

Lee Griffith: 00:26:43

that's rising to the top and organizations, they do not know

Lee Griffith: 00:26:46

best. I'm getting on my soapbox, this

Lee Griffith: 00:26:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: is what the listeners come here for Lee Come

Lee Griffith: 00:26:57

on.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:00

And then I think the other area, I mean, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:27:04

really reining myself in here because I could I could

Lee Griffith: 00:27:07

literally just keep going and going and going. But I think

Lee Griffith: 00:27:10

there's something for me about unlearning what is normal in the

Lee Griffith: 00:27:14

workplace and in leadership, because I think normal has been

Lee Griffith: 00:27:18

thrown up in the air over the last couple of years. And yet,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:23

all I'm hearing is organizations and leaders who are trying to go

Lee Griffith: 00:27:27

back to a time that I don't think necessarily was the

Lee Griffith: 00:27:30

greatest. And we know that with the you know, how people think

Lee Griffith: 00:27:36

and feel about the workplace. We know that with issues of

Lee Griffith: 00:27:39

equality and diversity, we know that we have gender imbalance,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:45

we know that with, you know, so many indicators, why are we

Lee Griffith: 00:27:50

harping back to go back to this place that, you know, the grass

Lee Griffith: 00:27:54

was not greener, then like, let's get some reality. We need

Lee Griffith: 00:27:57

to unlearn what we think normal is.

Lee Griffith: 00:28:02

Carrie-Ann Wade: I don't know where I go from here. There's so

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

much in there, Lee, there's so much in there. And, and again,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:08

lots of similarities to things that came into my head when

Lee Griffith: 00:28:11

thinking about what leaders need to unlearn. And this, this

Lee Griffith: 00:28:14

parent child thing, and sort of the trust stuff, and then going

Lee Griffith: 00:28:18

back to what it was like before was definitely high on my

Lee Griffith: 00:28:21

agenda. Because I think we are really at a point in time,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:26

where, yeah, we've got potential just to be taken so many steps

Lee Griffith: 00:28:30

backwards, and not actually learning anything that you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:34

I'm talking about unlearning. But we're not actually learning

Lee Griffith: 00:28:36

from, you know, what could make an organization feel like a

Lee Griffith: 00:28:40

great place to work a great place to get a service or a

Lee Griffith: 00:28:42

product from because we seem to have started to become obsessed

Lee Griffith: 00:28:46

with, we want to go back to what it was like before COVID. And

Lee Griffith: 00:28:50

I'm just like, but But why do we need to do that? Because we've

Lee Griffith: 00:28:52

proved people can work and operate in a different way. So

Lee Griffith: 00:28:56

what like, what's the purpose in going back? And I think some of

Lee Griffith: 00:29:01

the argument around that is about that balance between what

Lee Griffith: 00:29:04

employees need and one and what the organization is here to

Lee Griffith: 00:29:07

deliver. So I think we need to unlearn that desire to want to

Lee Griffith: 00:29:11

pair and to tell and dictate and actually learn how to have open

Lee Griffith: 00:29:16

and transparent conversations about how you can compromise and

Lee Griffith: 00:29:20

get the best possible outcomes for as many people as you can.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:25

It's definitely something for me

Lee Griffith: 00:29:26

there and you think you know, politics they

Lee Griffith: 00:29:29

want to go but in America there is a real potential that we're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:33

going to have like the most awful person going back into the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:38

White House that's a real and present danger. That's a film as

Lee Griffith: 00:29:42

well. Isn't it? Feeling present age I don't know. Now

Lee Griffith: 00:29:45

Carrie-Ann Wade: the nice reference if anybody from the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:47

last episode still got their bingo card out.

Lee Griffith: 00:29:51

You know, that's like, come on. Why reality check

Lee Griffith: 00:29:55

just just the other day. You Yorkshire cricket reinstated a

Lee Griffith: 00:30:01

chairman. Well, we've had to step down because even though

Lee Griffith: 00:30:05

we're racist, like come on just because they can get some

Lee Griffith: 00:30:08

Carrie-Ann Wade: money. So this absolutely leads me on to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:11

something I think we need to unlearn. While some Not we, I

Lee Griffith: 00:30:15

think we probably know this, but let some leaders need to unlearn

Lee Griffith: 00:30:19

about what reputation management actually means, because I still

Lee Griffith: 00:30:24

think and it has come back up to the surface with all of the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:27

stuff around the post office situation and Fiji, etc, that

Lee Griffith: 00:30:31

actually, in this day and age, reputation does not mean, make

Lee Griffith: 00:30:36

sure the brand of our organization at any cost to

Lee Griffith: 00:30:40

anybody is, is protected, because actually, what we've

Lee Griffith: 00:30:43

seen in those old school examples of what happened many

Lee Griffith: 00:30:47

years ago, is the reputation of the brand has not been protected

Lee Griffith: 00:30:50

at all, and understanding what makes up your brand, which is

Lee Griffith: 00:30:54

the way you behave the way that you role model. You know, the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

standards that you set for people, that's actually your

Lee Griffith: 00:31:00

reputation feels like something we really need to just take

Lee Griffith: 00:31:03

stock of and just check in with people to go look, we don't want

Lee Griffith: 00:31:07

this old school, like reputation management vibe, as a leader, we

Lee Griffith: 00:31:11

want you to just basically be doing the right thing. And your

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

good reputation will therefore follow. And on that point, I

Lee Griffith: 00:31:19

just would say there's something for me about, can we also, I

Lee Griffith: 00:31:25

don't even know if it's possible to unlearn this, because I don't

Lee Griffith: 00:31:27

know how to say the sentence. But can we also unlearn this

Lee Griffith: 00:31:31

kind of, I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand and not deal

Lee Griffith: 00:31:36

with anything until actually it becomes too much of a prominent

Lee Griffith: 00:31:39

issue. And I have to deal with it. So again, the post office

Lee Griffith: 00:31:42

one maybe even cricket one would be good examples of that as in

Lee Griffith: 00:31:46

like, you know, with this has been going on for a while. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:50

it's Yeah, can we get away with it? We can, we've got away with

Lee Griffith: 00:31:53

it for 20 years, but now there's been ITV drama about it, we're

Lee Griffith: 00:31:57

going to take some action, or how many other things have been

Lee Griffith: 00:32:00

rumbling on for such a long time with total inaction?

Unknown: 00:32:05

You know,

Unknown: 00:32:06

Carrie-Ann Wade: is that what it's gonna take, like the media

Unknown: 00:32:08

actually managing people to take leadership decisions, because

Unknown: 00:32:12

they put something into the spotlight is not the way I think

Unknown: 00:32:15

people should be leading. And

Lee Griffith: 00:32:16

this links back to my first point around, you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:19

popularity contests and stop trying to do things that you

Lee Griffith: 00:32:23

think will win, you do a popularity contest, that, you

Lee Griffith: 00:32:27

know, that is something that's got to be unlearned. So it's

Lee Griffith: 00:32:30

kind of like a full circle. It

Lee Griffith: 00:32:32

Carrie-Ann Wade: is it is a full circle. And we stopped the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:34

circle there, because I feel like we could go on forever with

Lee Griffith: 00:32:37

that. And it would take up and another thing and take up the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:41

whole episode. But I did want to just throw that in there.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:44

Because we usually start a series with a sort of laid out

Lee Griffith: 00:32:46

of what's happened in between. And I feel like we could end

Lee Griffith: 00:32:49

this series with like, what do we need to unlearn so that we

Lee Griffith: 00:32:52

can all be better leaders for 2024? Because we're still early

Lee Griffith: 00:32:56

ish, in the year. So we've got opportunity to make change and

Lee Griffith: 00:33:00

do things differently. So thank you for indulging me with that

Lee Griffith: 00:33:03

question. Lee and I yeah, I think you did really well, in

Lee Griffith: 00:33:08

not getting to full soapbox made for that one. So I ring

Lee Griffith: 00:33:13

was tell me that I'm too stressed to have a lie

Lee Griffith: 00:33:16

down. So you're done. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:33:20

that's, yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:33:22

I've got one of these wearable technology,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:24

things that I won't mention the brand, but it will tell me if

Lee Griffith: 00:33:29

I'm kind of my stress levels will arise.

Lee Griffith: 00:33:32

Carrie-Ann Wade: And we need to keep them at a nice even level

Lee Griffith: 00:33:34

so that you can be the best leader you can be without having

Lee Griffith: 00:33:38

to manage the impacts of that stress. Lee, so thank you. And I

Lee Griffith: 00:33:42

hope I didn't get you too stressed. I hope your wearables

Lee Griffith: 00:33:44

not I'm about to implode. So I will I'm conscious of time, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:33:50

conscious that we've got well, I've got a gym that needs to

Lee Griffith: 00:33:52

drink him of ice cubes mountain. And so I'm going to I am going

Lee Griffith: 00:33:57

to try to wrap us up in terms of this conversation. And we are

Lee Griffith: 00:34:03

all about the action here. So I wanted to know what advice and

Lee Griffith: 00:34:07

what action do you think that a leader listening to this could

Lee Griffith: 00:34:12

take around unlearning?

Lee Griffith: 00:34:15

I think it's about recognizing that it's a work in

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

progress. Absolutely starts with your self awareness and an

Lee Griffith: 00:34:26

openness to change reframe challenge, whatever it is that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:32

you swore for, you knew. And I think that's that's your

Lee Griffith: 00:34:36

premise. That's the mindset stuff you need to do. What it is

Lee Griffith: 00:34:39

you choose to unlearn and when you choose to do it is a whole

Lee Griffith: 00:34:43

other kind of question like that. Let's, let's get the self

Lee Griffith: 00:34:48

awareness piece. So at first,

Lee Griffith: 00:34:50

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that and I think for me, part of that

Lee Griffith: 00:34:52

self awareness is just asking yourself the question, Am I

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

achieving what I set out to achieve and using that as a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:59

measure have maybe then where you might want to focus some of

Lee Griffith: 00:35:02

your time and energy. And if I was going to give a plug to

Lee Griffith: 00:35:06

another episode in this series, if you haven't listened to it

Lee Griffith: 00:35:09

already, I think going back to the episode around self

Lee Griffith: 00:35:13

leadership might also help get you into the right headspace.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:16

Because part of that was around that self. There was there was

Lee Griffith: 00:35:19

lots of selves in the self leadership piece. But part of

Lee Griffith: 00:35:22

that was around that awareness and insight. So in terms of your

Lee Griffith: 00:35:26

own development, I would suggest that might also be another good

Lee Griffith: 00:35:29

lesson for you if you haven't heard that episode already. So

Unknown: 00:35:34

that's the end. That's the end fakes Well, of this

Unknown: 00:35:37

series, I'm

Unknown: 00:35:38

Carrie-Ann Wade: not saying that's the end, full stop. So

Unknown: 00:35:42

this is very polite view is back to your regal manner, you did

Unknown: 00:35:45

raise your hand in a very regal way to get your

Unknown: 00:35:47

beautiful dress friendly.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:50

What's What's your highlight of the series?

Unknown: 00:35:54

Oh, my highlight of the series.

Unknown: 00:35:58

Carrie-Ann Wade: But apart from all the laughs, which obviously

Unknown: 00:36:00

is which, which I love, because we are talking about really

Unknown: 00:36:03

serious topics, yeah, when we're talking about leadership, and we

Unknown: 00:36:06

are committed to wanting to support other people to make

Unknown: 00:36:10

some sort of change, no matter how small to challenge some of

Unknown: 00:36:13

that leadership BS. But what I do love, and what I've loved is

Unknown: 00:36:17

that we have managed to have some laughs along the way, which

Unknown: 00:36:20

I hope demonstrate some level of authenticity and what our

Unknown: 00:36:24

relationship is like with each other. So I'll thank you for the

Unknown: 00:36:27

laughs along the way. I'm not, it's not because I've just said

Unknown: 00:36:31

it. But actually, for me, personally, the self leadership

Unknown: 00:36:34

episode has really been one that I have reflected on a lot since

Unknown: 00:36:38

we recorded it, and thought about a lot in terms of actions

Unknown: 00:36:42

that I want to take over the coming months to help me with my

Unknown: 00:36:47

development, but also getting some balance and really thinking

Unknown: 00:36:51

about my next steps in terms of how I want to show up as a

Unknown: 00:36:54

leader. And a lot of that has been about the self care piece,

Unknown: 00:36:57

because I have spent some time neglecting the things that mean,

Unknown: 00:37:01

I'm possibly not bringing my best self always into the

Unknown: 00:37:04

leadership space. And it's easy to think because they're things

Unknown: 00:37:07

to do with home and health and getting a balance somewhere else

Unknown: 00:37:12

that actually you shouldn't neglect it to be totally focused

Unknown: 00:37:15

on the work and the business stuff. So for me, that probably

Unknown: 00:37:19

has been my highlight for a totally selfish reason. Because

Unknown: 00:37:22

it's helped me to reflect and rethink around, you know, my own

Unknown: 00:37:25

approach to things. So good question right back at you.

Unknown: 00:37:29

Well,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:30

I throw the question at you thoroughly

Lee Griffith: 00:37:32

unprepared. And then realized, as you were talking that you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:36

would do Yeah,

Unknown: 00:37:37

I would, of course, I would. I can barely remember

Lee Griffith: 00:37:41

what I was doing yesterday, far less what we've

Lee Griffith: 00:37:43

covered in this series. And but I actually agree with you, I

Lee Griffith: 00:37:47

think 2020 For the focus on self. leadership's a really

Lee Griffith: 00:37:51

important point I think is we've come out of not even come out of

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

we are in really challenging times, still, in many ways. And

Lee Griffith: 00:38:00

I think the pandemic gave an opportunity for people to think

Lee Griffith: 00:38:04

about what they wanted in life and careers and work and

Lee Griffith: 00:38:09

everything. And then we've started to slip back into what

Lee Griffith: 00:38:12

is normal. And I think this year is the opportunity to really

Lee Griffith: 00:38:16

start to try and harmonize the, what I thought and hoped then

Lee Griffith: 00:38:21

and let's not lose track of that in the noise that's been created

Lee Griffith: 00:38:25

around us with with it all. And personally, again, just that

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

focus on I can't show up and serve anyone to my best if I am

Lee Griffith: 00:38:38

not showing up and serving myself first. And and that isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:38:42

a selfish thing to think or feel or do.

Lee Griffith: 00:38:46

Carrie-Ann Wade: While cheers to that lay there could not

Lee Griffith: 00:38:48

possibly have been a better ending to the series. So I hope

Lee Griffith: 00:38:52

if that's the only thing that listeners takeaway, please do

Lee Griffith: 00:38:56

take that away and consider that as you make progress in your

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

leadership, journeys, careers, whatever. I want to thank

Lee Griffith: 00:39:05

everybody who's listened to this series of how to take the lead.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:08

It's been a pleasure as always having these conversations and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:12

challenging some of my own thinking along the way. So the

Lee Griffith: 00:39:16

biggest Thank you has to go to you Lee for continuing with our

Lee Griffith: 00:39:20

how to take the lead collaboration. So thank you

Lee Griffith: 00:39:23

also, I like not to extend this conversation

Lee Griffith: 00:39:26

because I feel like you know, we've got

Lee Griffith: 00:39:28

Carrie-Ann Wade: you did the good ending, and then we're

Lee Griffith: 00:39:29

like, pulling away from it. Boo, get off

Lee Griffith: 00:39:36

the whole self leadership piece. One really

Lee Griffith: 00:39:38

important step that we've taken this year with the podcast is to

Lee Griffith: 00:39:42

get external support. It's been an opportunity for us to free up

Lee Griffith: 00:39:49

and change how we use our time when it comes to the podcasts

Lee Griffith: 00:39:52

that we can focus on supporting people in a different way. So

Lee Griffith: 00:39:55

yeah, that's a good leadership, proactive action. So thank you

Lee Griffith: 00:39:58

to to our editor and people who've supported

Lee Griffith: 00:40:00

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, absolutely, that is definitely an important

Lee Griffith: 00:40:03

thank you because it has made the world of difference to how

Lee Griffith: 00:40:06

we are spending our time and self leading. So huge thank you.

Lee Griffith: 00:40:11

So now we can do the chairs, give ourselves a pat on the

Lee Griffith: 00:40:16

back. And most importantly, say thank you to the listeners

Lee Griffith: 00:40:19

who've stuck with us and also to those who might be new. And I've

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only just found us we hope to bring more great content your

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way over the rest of the year in whatever shape or form that

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might take. So, thank you everyone. I hope you enjoyed the

Lee Griffith: 00:40:32

series, and we'll see you next time.

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Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit

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follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's

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discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple

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podcasts.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

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can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

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build your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to

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take the lead.substack.com To find out more.

Lee Griffith: 00:40:59

And if you want to work with us to challenge and

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change leadership in your organisation. Get in touch by

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dropping us an email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on

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the socials. Until next week. Get out there and take the lead.