When are you a leader?

Lee: 00:00:00

well, as a complete aside, I do know someone many, many, many years ago who

Lee: 00:00:05

did set objectives for his girlfriend.

Lee: 00:00:50

​ Hello and welcome to another

Lee: 00:00:53

How are you?

Lee: 00:00:54

This rainy afternoon,

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:56

Oh, it's proper miserable out there, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:58

I think the, the weather is, uh, is keeping tone with the

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:01

state of leadership at the moment.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:04

That's what I think

Lee: 00:01:06

I also realize that we seem to start every episode

Lee: 00:01:11

with some form of weather check.

Lee: 00:01:12

So is that just the Britishness in us coming out?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

The polite Britishness, weather cuing, just generally random

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:20

small talk before anything starts.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:22

But yeah, it is miserable, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:23

And it's cold now it's proper coming into like that winter feeling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:27

So I'm hoping that the podcast offers people, some think good and juicy to

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:32

listen to whilst they're going into hibernation mode for the season.

Lee: 00:01:36

So today I wanted to explore, we, we've done episodes before about

Lee: 00:01:41

what is leadership and I kind of wanna re-look at it, but come at

Lee: 00:01:46

it from a slightly different angle.

Lee: 00:01:48

For me, leadership is a word that so often is interchanged with the word management.

Lee: 00:01:56

And I think particularly when you look at it from an organizational point of

Lee: 00:02:00

view, there's an expectation almost even in the language we use in this podcast,

Lee: 00:02:05

I'd say that the more senior you are, The more you are in a leadership position.

Lee: 00:02:12

And for me, I think there is a difference between being in a leadership

Lee: 00:02:16

position and the requirements and the accountabilities of you as a person.

Lee: 00:02:21

but I think that's different to demonstrating leadership.

Lee: 00:02:25

I don't think they're mutually exclusive terms, and I think we would all be

Lee: 00:02:31

able to reference leaders who actually are senior managers, and we also know

Lee: 00:02:36

leaders who aren't great managers.

Lee: 00:02:39

So I think there is a, A distinction and a separation.

Lee: 00:02:41

Yeah.

Lee: 00:02:42

So I want to explore today a bit more around that concept of leadership and

Lee: 00:02:47

the perceptions and realities, and I suppose to kick us off, get your

Lee: 00:02:52

sense on those connotations of when you think about leadership and being

Lee: 00:02:56

a leader, what that brings up for you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:59

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:01

difference between leadership and management, it's definitely there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:05

And I think my experience has been that you often see people who are technically

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:10

really capable in their role being pro promoted to management positions, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

that doesn't automatically mean that they'll be good people, managers, but also

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:19

managing people doesn't automatically, like you say, make you a good leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:23

So for me, in terms of thinking about leadership, there's something about

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:27

mindset and approach and actually seeing yourself as a leader rather

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

than seeing yourself as someone who signs off annual leave, manages

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:36

sickness, sets tasks for the team.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:39

I think there is a difference, and I think there is a role needed

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:42

in some of that management space, but absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:45

And I think there's something for me in terms of like those connotations around

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:50

being a leader, I don't feel like you automatically get that through, the role

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

that you have, like that whole leadership, when you're in that leadership space,

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:00

it's not necessarily aligned to the seniority of the position that you are in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:05

Um, for me, I think it's definitely more about what actions you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:09

demonstrate and what behaviors you demonstrate in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:14

As a leader, I think there's something that, you've mentioned this already

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:17

around responsibility and accountability.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:20

So I think when you step into that space as a leader, whether it's into

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:24

a more senior leadership position or whether you are being a leader in your

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:28

field or for a specific cause, that responsibility I think then comes with it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:34

So responsibility to role model to others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:37

I think connotations of being a leader, for me, it definitely, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:41

linked with your integrity, you know, are you acting with integrity?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:45

Are you demonstrating your values?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:47

Are you prepared to speak out on behalf of others and advocate for them?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:52

You know, are you able to spearhead change?

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:55

So it feels like lots of those kind of words and descriptions fit for

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:59

me with the idea of being a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:02

I think one of the other things that comes to mind for me when I talk

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:06

about what it means to be a leader and what's associated with that is

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:10

also that awareness that others will be critical of you if they have a

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:14

different opinion and a different view.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:16

And that you have to be prepared for the impacts of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:19

And I sometimes think people who assume their position makes them a leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:25

sometimes perhaps haven't done that developmental work and that thinking about

Carrie-Ann: 00:05:29

what that means for them both personally and for the people they're leading.

Lee: 00:05:33

Do you think organizations have some responsibility for that?

Lee: 00:05:36

Because I think as they're pulling people up the hierarchy because of

Lee: 00:05:41

how they've perhaps managed their function, it, it may or may not be

Lee: 00:05:45

their people management skills, but maybe they're excelling in their area

Lee: 00:05:48

of expertise, they get pulled up.

Lee: 00:05:51

Then the expectation and the label of leadership comes into

Lee: 00:05:55

play, the more senior they get.

Lee: 00:05:57

But they don't necessarily get that school in around well, The difference

Lee: 00:06:01

when you step into a leadership space?

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:03

I absolutely agree and I see that a lot in organizations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:07

I think people, one, I don't think people often get their training and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:11

development they need to become managers.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:13

Back to that point of you might, you might be a really excellent accountant for

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:18

example, but that doesn't automatically mean you're gonna be a really good

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:21

manager of a team of other accountants.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:24

And I think people almost shine and excel in their sphere of professional

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:29

knowledge and expertise, but often don't get that support when they then get

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:33

that promotion into a management role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:35

But I also think the development schemes and training and approach that is on offer

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:41

from some organizations don't help with that shift of mindset into the leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:46

space because often people will then go, Oh, well I, I haven't got the skills

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:51

and I've been promoted to team manager, service manager, whatever, get put on a

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:56

management training course, which ends up being very much driven by processes

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:00

that you have to follow as a manager.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:02

Do you know the right HR processes and policies?

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:05

If you have to deal with a difficult member of staff or a

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

performance issue, for example.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:10

And again, that doesn't for me touch on that leadership space and thinking, So

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:15

I, I would absolutely agree organizations need to do more and my perception

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:20

is there are many organizations that maybe themselves don't understand

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:23

that difference to be able to offer the right development in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:27

I dunno if that's been your experience,

Lee: 00:07:29

I, I, I reflect on when I was working in one organization and

Lee: 00:07:33

we had a leadership development program, an internal one.

Lee: 00:07:37

And everyone of a certain tier and above were automatically included in

Lee: 00:07:44

that leadership development program.

Lee: 00:07:45

And we used to start the sessions.

Lee: 00:07:47

With the chief exec asking people put your hand up if you

Lee: 00:07:52

consider yourself to be a leader.

Lee: 00:07:54

And it was quite enlightening because actually less than half the room put

Lee: 00:07:58

their hand up and part of the work we did was, was around trying to shift

Lee: 00:08:03

that mindset from your responsibilities as you become a senior leader versus

Lee: 00:08:08

those management responsibilities.

Lee: 00:08:10

And we tried to measure that over time, I haven't got any hard.

Lee: 00:08:13

Fast measures.

Lee: 00:08:15

It did change.

Lee: 00:08:16

Some people did start to see themselves as that, but did we do enough?

Lee: 00:08:21

I, I think we still immediately labeled everyone as leader

Lee: 00:08:24

without them demonstrating their ability or accountability of that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:28

and I think back to your point about seniority, I guess there

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:31

is an expectation that once you reach a certain level within your career or your

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:35

organization, that there is that automatic shift into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:40

But there will be people who are not in a senior position, but who would

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:44

consider themselves to be leaders in their organizations because they're experts in

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:49

their field or because they have a, a huge group of, of colleagues potentially that

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:54

look up to them for leadership even though they're not in a leadership position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:58

So I think it is all about perception, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

And that labeling and how you manage some of that, I, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:04

that's quite interesting to explore.

Lee: 00:09:06

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:07

Because it's not only your perception of yourself, so

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:10

I wonder how many people in that room who didn't perceive or did

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:13

perceive themselves as leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:15

If you ask the people they worked with, how many people would go,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:18

Yes, I see them as a leader or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:20

And I think that's sometimes more about people's behaviors, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:23

And how they operate in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:25

So

Lee: 00:09:26

Yeah.

Lee: 00:09:27

And Kind of bridges nicely into my next point, which was the fact that

Lee: 00:09:32

some people we know have that natural leadership ability within them.

Lee: 00:09:37

Um, they don't feel they need authority or seniority or however you want to, to badge

Lee: 00:09:42

it to lead whilst others feel like they've got to be given that by someone else to be

Lee: 00:09:48

able to show leadership and again, I know we are potentially confusing leadership

Lee: 00:09:53

and management, but I do think that's what you see is, is that permission to lead

Lee: 00:09:57

that some people feel they have to have.

Lee: 00:09:59

And I suppose it goes back to whether people themselves see themselves as

Lee: 00:10:07

needing to manage others in order to lead.

Lee: 00:10:10

And I think some of the difficulties can be if people perhaps don't have a natural

Lee: 00:10:15

management infrastructure around them, can they show themselves to be a leader?

Lee: 00:10:21

Or if people aren't in a senior position, do they just seem themselves

Lee: 00:10:25

as a team manager or head of team, and don't see themselves as a leader.

Lee: 00:10:31

So I wondered what your thoughts were on that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:33

I definitely agree.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:34

It's about how you perceive yourself.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:36

Um, in that space for sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:38

And I also think it's something about how you act in that space as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:42

So I think actually in healthcare, which is obviously a field, where

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:45

a lot of my experience comes from.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:47

You do often come across clinicians at all different levels in, in their

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:52

kind of, Career journey and, and that hierarchy that you've talked about

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:56

who are definite leaders without having those senior positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

Because what they're really good at is galvanizing groups of staff to

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:04

work together and to collaborate That, that they really demonstrate through

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:08

their actions and what they choose to be vocal about, that they are working

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:12

towards something that they perceive to be a really important cause.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:15

You often find those sorts of people really active in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:19

space around lobbying for change or advocating for others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:23

So I think there are definitely people who are able to do that

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:26

without being given the authority of a particular title to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:31

But I think, I think people do struggle with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:33

And I think there will be people who will think, I don't have the authority to act

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:37

as a leader because I'm not a, a manager.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:41

Um, but I think it's, for me, it's about mindset and that desire to make

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:45

an impact and, and I would say, You know, it, it is easy to say cuz there'll

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:50

be all sorts of restrictions around how people operate in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:54

But there's a bit of me that feels like if you doubt you have the authority,

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:57

but you feel like you can make an impact in that leadership space, what's the

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:01

worst that that could happen for you?

Lee: 00:12:04

Mm.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:05

for forgiveness, not seek permission sometimes, because

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:08

sometimes you know, there's not gonna be enough senior job titles

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:11

in an organization for everyone to.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:14

Labeled as a leader through the hierarchy, but that doesn't mean

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:18

you can't be a leader without the job title, if that makes sense.

Lee: 00:12:22

Yeah.

Lee: 00:12:23

Yeah.

Lee: 00:12:23

So if you know someone is doubting their authority to lead or the

Lee: 00:12:28

perception of their ability to lead, what can they do about it?

Lee: 00:12:33

You know, what sets people apart who just naturally fall into that space and

Lee: 00:12:39

seem to make it work for them, versus those that perhaps feel like they need

Lee: 00:12:42

that, that permission or something?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:45

I think in terms of people who don't naturally feel able to step

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:49

into that space for whatever reason, there's something for me about like

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:52

your support network and who you have around you who can help to influence

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:57

you and challenge your thinking and help to give you that confidence,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:02

I guess, to step into that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:04

I go back to that, but I mean, it's about being brave, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:07

It is about being brave enough to put yourself out there

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:10

and potentially take a risk.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:12

So I guess it's also about looking at the opportunities that you have to influence

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:18

and to make an impact, as a leader in your organization, regardless of role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:23

And if there are smaller things you can do to start to make you feel more

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:26

comfortable operating in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:29

Because I think as we've already said leadership comes with a lot

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:33

of responsibility and you are gonna face challenges and you are

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:37

gonna face people who are gonna be critical of your view on things or

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:41

the way in which you want to operate.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:43

So actually doing small, incremental things that probably feel less of a

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:47

huge risk, I think, help you get into that head space, if that makes sense.

Lee: 00:13:52

I would add to that people who are questioning their leadership

Lee: 00:13:59

ability or authority, I think that there are a few things to.

Lee: 00:14:03

I go back to your purpose.

Lee: 00:14:05

So why?

Lee: 00:14:06

Why actually, do you want to be seen as a leader?

Lee: 00:14:09

Is it that you want to be recognized as having a position of power or authority?

Lee: 00:14:14

Is it that you want to be seen like that because actually it's an important step

Lee: 00:14:19

in your career because you're viewing it in a seniority point of view, or

Lee: 00:14:23

is it because you actually just want

Lee: 00:14:25

be a really great manager, but you want to inspire people.

Lee: 00:14:28

You want to bring a bit extra to the role.

Lee: 00:14:31

So going back to your rationale, why is I think a really good starting point.

Lee: 00:14:38

And I always look to people like project managers or program directors because

Lee: 00:14:43

they're often leaders because they lead a project but don't often have teams.

Lee: 00:14:52

They've got to galvanize other people in other teams who have different

Lee: 00:14:57

reporting and accountability lines.

Lee: 00:14:59

And you can really tell the difference between successful program project

Lee: 00:15:04

leaders and the success of a project as opposed to those who perhaps maybe need

Lee: 00:15:10

to try and grab some authority and power.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:14

And I, I think that is really interesting, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:16

Because for me, that feels like a, a potentially harder space to lead in when

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:21

actually you don't have that authority necessarily over the people that you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:25

trying to bring on a journey with you and get to deliver things with your

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:29

kind of oversight and your vision.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:31

So I think that that does demonstrate to me people who

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:34

are successful in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:35

Definitely for me demonstrate really good and strong leadership skills.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:39

But I, I'd really like your point about asking why do you want to be a leader?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:43

I think that should, you know, each step of your own career journey, you should

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:47

be asking, why do I want to move into that next space and take that next step?

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:51

And obviously there will be people who are driven by power and wanting to have

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:55

that power and influence over others in terms of the hierarchy and the seniority,

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:00

that makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:03

It's made me feel like I want it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:04

I'm itchy about that, cuz that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:08

I guess for me I think as well, I think it's.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:13

Not easier for leaders, that's not the right word, but leaders who are doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:16

something because they're passionate about the cause or the impact that they can

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:19

have for other people, I think generally come tend to come across as more authentic

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:25

in that leadership space than people who are doing it for ego is probably

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:28

what I'm trying to say on that point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:30

But so I think that purpose and the why is a really good

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:33

question to be asking yourself.

Lee: 00:16:35

And I think also asking other people the why.

Lee: 00:16:39

So if you've had feedback, and I've seen this happen where chief

Lee: 00:16:43

exec or director says, you are in a leadership position, you need to be

Lee: 00:16:47

demonstrating better leadership, or you need to show up more as a leader.

Lee: 00:16:52

The, the really generic feedback term that, that people often get thrown at

Lee: 00:16:57

them a bit like, you need to be more strategic, what the F does that mean?

Lee: 00:17:01

. So being able to go to someone if you get that feedback and go can

Lee: 00:17:06

we make this a bit more tangible?

Lee: 00:17:07

What, what do you mean?

Lee: 00:17:08

What does that look like for you?

Lee: 00:17:10

What's the space I'm not filling that I need to?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:13

How can I demonstrate that?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:14

You want me to demonstrate something?

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:16

Tell me how, what is, Yeah, exactly.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:18

What is it that you need to see from me that would make you feel confident

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:21

that I'm demonstrating what you need.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:23

And, and then when you hear it, you have to question whether

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:25

you are comfortable with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:26

Some of that feedback you might get might, might mean that you change your mind

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:30

about the why you want to be a leader in that particular space or organization.

Lee: 00:17:35

Or you might figure out that they've got no clue what they're doing

Lee: 00:17:38

in terms of leadership and actually that isn't the right fit for you anyway.

Lee: 00:18:37

A conversation that my husband and I had during series one, and I can't remember.

Lee: 00:18:43

What episode triggered it might have been the superpower one.

Lee: 00:18:47

He didn't listen to the whole series.

Lee: 00:18:49

It was the early episodes I forced him

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:50

Was he a fair weather listener?

Lee: 00:18:52

he was a

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:53

Fair

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:53

weather listener.

Carrie-Ann: 00:18:54

But at least he showed some support though

Lee: 00:18:56

Well, I think it's because you are of a half had listened

Lee: 00:18:59

and he felt like he needed to.

Lee: 00:19:01

Otherwise I wouldn't have let it

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:02

Again, I think that was on the fair weather.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:04

I'm just trying to be a supportive partner front.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:07

I'm, I'm not sure he could feedback, which his favorite episode was.

Lee: 00:19:10

Anyway, I say what to say, he did to demonstrate, said

Lee: 00:19:14

listening of a podcast episode.

Lee: 00:19:16

He and I got into quite hearty discussion about something.

Lee: 00:19:20

And it was the point that leadership isn't something that you just switch on and off.

Lee: 00:19:25

If you're a good leader then it's inherent to your character and you would

Lee: 00:19:31

be demonstrating the same traits when you are at home or out in company as

Lee: 00:19:36

you would when you're in the workplace.

Lee: 00:19:37

And it was a really interesting discussion because yes, that's true,

Lee: 00:19:42

but also I, I felt a bit like some elements of leadership would be

Lee: 00:19:47

really odd if you bought it home.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:48

I'm gonna start performance Managing your husband.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:51

This is excellent.

Lee: 00:19:52

Well, as a complete aside, I do know someone many, many, many years ago who

Lee: 00:19:58

did set objectives for his girlfriend.

Lee: 00:20:01

I'm

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:01

Oh, I don't even, do you know what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:03

I don't even know where to go for that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:04

I feel like that's like a bonus episode Waiting to happen.

Lee: 00:20:07

Suddenly your upper half starts giving this massive vision

Lee: 00:20:11

statement as you carves the roast on a Sunday, you know, maybe that's

Lee: 00:20:15

what you like in your household, but that wouldn't really be for me.

Lee: 00:20:19

It got me thinking about how different are you at work to at home.

Lee: 00:20:24

And is leadership something that you leave at the door in the office

Lee: 00:20:28

or do you bring it back with you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:30

Oh, I've got so much to say about this, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:32

I, I do have friends who at New Year have a New Year's meal and bottle of

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:38

something lovely and they do a backward look of the year That's just gone.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

In terms of what they feel has

Lee: 00:20:45

like their annual report.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:46

Yeah, that what they feel has been really positive that's

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:48

happened for them in that year.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:50

What they found really challenging as a couple, as a family, whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:54

And then they do a bit of a forward look.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

Like what?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:56

What are our aspirations for the year ahead?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

Like, are there things we want to achieve?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:00

Which I kind of quite like, but, But now you've said it's like an annual report.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:03

I'm like, Oh no, that's good

Lee: 00:21:05

Well, my mind went to one new report when you first started to

Lee: 00:21:08

describe it, but then I thought, actually I do something similar.

Lee: 00:21:10

I'm not, with, not with David.

Lee: 00:21:12

God help.

Lee: 00:21:13

He would like, literally, he'd leave me if I started doing that.

Lee: 00:21:16

I do that like at the end, people journal, people like to set themselves personal

Lee: 00:21:21

cause I'm not against any of that.

Lee: 00:21:23

I suppose it's that forced.

Lee: 00:21:25

I, I suppose when he was talking about it, I had the whole hockey

Lee: 00:21:29

sticks situation vision in my head of really rallying the troops in the

Lee: 00:21:35

household and all kind of marching up the hills to the same goal and.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:40

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:41

So anyway, sorry.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:42

I've dig, I've made just digress again a little bit there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:44

So, um, back to the question that you asked me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:46

I do, I do think there are people who, uh, maybe their traits and personality

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:51

type might naturally lend themselves to be more comfortable in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:56

But I do think that you can learn to be a good leader and I guess key to

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:00

that is having that open mindset and wanting to learn and grow and develop.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:04

So I definitely think that there's something there, and I think in terms

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:09

of that, I dunno, because I look at the introvert extrovert argument around that

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:14

one about you can say people are natural born leaders, but you know, we've had this

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:18

whole debate going on about how people expect extroverts to be better leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:22

But actually quite a lot of the evidence and research shows that introverts

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:25

make better leaders, but we still keep telling them to be more extrovert.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:28

So you know that there's a whole piece around that in terms of whether.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:32

Like natural ability versus nurture versus effort.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:35

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:36

But back to the point I guess around that, the home and and work scenario, I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:41

I probably personally do demonstrate some things because they're just inherent in

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:47

me in terms of the way I act, in terms of when I'm in the home, in my home

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:53

environment, in my personal life, I still operate in a way, which is about the

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:57

fact that actually what motivates me is achieving things and having an impact.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:01

So I'm looking for things to do in the home that make me feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:05

like I've achieved something.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:07

I think I bring some creativity into that space, which I think

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:10

I do in the professional space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:12

I am still quite goals focused.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:16

So I think there are some things that transcend between home and work life.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:20

But

Lee: 00:23:20

Your transferable skills,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:22

Yeah, let's talk about transferable skills, but the difference,

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:26

is what, what I feel is important to focus my energies and time on at home

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:30

versus at work, which will be different.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:32

So maybe my approach to some of those things would be the same, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:36

actually, the subject matter would be very different And, and when I was

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:40

thinking about this before we started having this conversation, I thought

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:44

what was quite interesting for me to reflect on is that my partner and I are

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:47

both leaders in our workplace in very different fields and very different ways.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:52

But what I do sometimes notice at home is that there are some weeks when

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:56

neither of us want to make a decision.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:59

Neither of us wants to step up into that space to go, right,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:03

this is what we're doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:04

You know, It's not about any necessarily major things might

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:06

be like what to have for dinner.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:08

What are we doing at the weekend?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:09

Where are we going?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:10

Who are we seeing?

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:11

I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:12

Because both of us have done that all week long in our roles that we

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:16

get home and we're like, I just want someone else to make the decisions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:19

And then he's like, Well, I just want someone else to make the decisions too.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:22

So we, we get into this little state sometimes of like, just

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:25

nothing happens because, because neither of us wanna take the lead.

Lee: 00:24:29

So this, this is one of my biggest issues and the biggest differences I

Lee: 00:24:34

think I've found between my work life and my home life is my indecisiveness.

Lee: 00:24:38

And I had this conversation with David the other day.

Lee: 00:24:41

because he was like, I don't understand, I think we were watching some TV show and

Lee: 00:24:45

he was like, Oh, you'd be really good at doing that cuz you'd be really decisive.

Lee: 00:24:47

He said, I don't understand why you're just not like that at home though.

Lee: 00:24:51

And I, and I reflected going, Yeah, I used to, I had no problems making

Lee: 00:24:54

decisions when I was at work.

Lee: 00:24:56

I'd be really clear, I'd have a process of elimination, I'd,

Lee: 00:25:00

maybe seek counsel, whatever.

Lee: 00:25:02

At home.

Lee: 00:25:03

I am so indecisive, chronically indecisive.

Lee: 00:25:07

Still, Um, even though I run my own business, if I talk about stuff in

Lee: 00:25:10

my business, I can make a decision and I've never thought of it.

Lee: 00:25:13

Maybe I'm tired of making decisions, but um, yeah, that's my biggest difference.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:18

Having said that though, I do think that I definitely,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:21

much more easily in my personal life than than did my partner.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:25

It can easily step up into that decision making mode because then it gets to a

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:28

point where I'm like, Well, somebody has to make a decision, so I'm just gonna make

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:32

it because we can't carry on in this state of like nothing's actually progressing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:36

And I do think I'm a big picture ideas sort of person, and I think at home,

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:42

I know that's one of my strengths.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:44

So I, I do a bit more of that in terms of, the big thinking about what, what we're

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:48

gonna commit to next, what we're doing.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:51

But then I know that I rely on my partner to do all the logical, practical

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:54

stuff to actually make it happen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:25:56

So that's another similarity, I guess, to how I operate in the,

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:00

in the workspace, um, as a leader.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:02

So I, I think you can't, you can't undo some of it, but I, I agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:06

I don't think you go home in leadership mode to like act a certain way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:12

I think there's natural things that come out cuz that's just part of your

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:15

personality and who you are and maybe your why, your leadership style is like it is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:20

But it situation dependent, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:23

I think.

Lee: 00:26:23

Yeah.

Lee: 00:26:24

But I have, I mean, you do see sometimes, and I think, I've been accused of this

Lee: 00:26:28

before, you've come back and you're using work speak in the home and it's

Lee: 00:26:32

like, I mean, we don't do corporate BS here, but you know, back in the day,

Lee: 00:26:37

I dabbled every now and then with it

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:40

How about No, I can't.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:41

I can't tell you off Lee cause I did the same and my ex-partner and I used to work

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:44

together and that was just an absolute nightmare because you almost can avoid

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:49

having the corporate BS speak at home.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:52

And we got to a point where we used, if we used to commute together, we used to

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:55

say by the time we get out of the car at home, we'd not allowed to talk about

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:59

work anymore because it is draining.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:01

I think it does make you tired.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

You do need that, that change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:04

And I think that's something that i've learnt over time is

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:08

to do that wellbeing stuff.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:10

So I think for me, some of my home has to be about balance, wellbeing,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:16

not maybe being so focused.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:18

But I, I hope I bring some of that into my leadership space at work as well.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:23

And then I guess at work, the planning, the focus to setting the direction,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:27

the collaboration, the facilitation, I hope I bring some of that when

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

it's needed into the home space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:32

But it's just getting that right, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:34

Not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:35

Too much one way or the other.

Lee: 00:27:37

I know for me, the home thing that I bring into to work is that

Lee: 00:27:42

understanding other people's perspectives?

Lee: 00:27:44

I think my husband's definitely influenced me with that.

Lee: 00:27:48

I've would historically get quite hotheaded and be quick to judge on

Lee: 00:27:54

certain things or situations and um, I wouldn't say I'm completely cured,

Lee: 00:28:00

but he has definitely mellowed me out and made me think more broadly about

Lee: 00:28:04

different perspectives and made me challenge my own thinking and take

Lee: 00:28:08

a step back sometimes before I act.

Lee: 00:28:10

And, and all of that, which I know absolutely benefited me in my late

Lee: 00:28:15

years in my corporate role because I think I handled situations maybe

Lee: 00:28:19

through experience of ha not handling them the best way to begin with.

Lee: 00:28:23

But also his influence on me and thinking how would he

Lee: 00:28:27

have approached it has helped.

Lee: 00:28:29

Um, I dunno what I've influenced on him though, if that, that's

Lee: 00:28:33

a whole other conversation

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:34

That's, that's another bonus episode of the podcast right there,

Lee: 00:28:39

So to wrap up with our how-to's, how do you start to hone in, I

Lee: 00:28:48

suppose, of on who you are as a leader and, and when and how you lead?

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:54

I think, in terms of how tos for me, that point you made about

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:58

your why, is a really important one.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:01

I think if you are doubting that you have authority, but you have the

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:05

desire to want to make an impact, then something's calling you to

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:09

step into that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:11

And I think my thinking there would be seek forgiveness, not permission.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:16

Just do it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:17

Just step up and see what happens.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:19

Um, and I think just reflecting on the last bit of the conversation, if you

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:24

act with integrity and authenticity in the workplace, then you are bringing

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:29

some of your home self and, and vice versa to, to both of those roles.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:33

But there is something for me about learning to switch off a bit because I

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:38

think sometimes when you are a leader, you do think it's 24 7 and absolutely, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:44

know, you're having to role model being a good person, not even a good leader

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:49

all the time because the eyes are on you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:51

But it's, it is important, I think, to be able to switch off mostly for

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:55

your own wellbeing and so you don't burn out, but also to role model

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:58

some good practice to other people.

Lee: 00:30:00

Well, I can't really top that, so my how to would be more around

Lee: 00:30:05

that building your leadership brand.

Lee: 00:30:07

We did an episode about that in series one.

Lee: 00:30:11

I know that can feel really icky for some people, but the fact is

Lee: 00:30:15

we all have a brand and a personal brand, and this is about stepping

Lee: 00:30:20

into that leadership brand space.

Lee: 00:30:21

So for me it's about getting some intentionality about what makes you, you