Women in leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:00

For the listeners who didn't get the sound effect, there

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:02

was a sort of eye roll eyebrow raise thing going on there from Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:47

Hello listeners, and welcome to this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:51

I am obviously joined by the fabulous Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:00:54

How are you doing today?

Lee: 00:00:56

Well, at the time of recording this, we are recording it just after

Lee: 00:01:02

the Truss has announced her resignation.

Lee: 00:01:04

It feels quite apt for a conversation about women in leadership.

Lee: 00:01:08

So I'm like totally pissed off at one scale, but also

Lee: 00:01:12

Dingdong the witch is dead.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:16

I love that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:17

Excellent.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:17

Yeah, it has been a funny few days in terms of leadership, hasn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:22

So yeah, I have to say, it's like, what, what is going on?

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:25

I don't know.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:25

Talk about the state of leadership episode one we covered that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:29

We have got another episode just in the last couple of days worth of activity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:33

But as you say we are talking about women in leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:37

And I just wanted to set a little bit of context in terms of why

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:41

we wanted to cover this and some recent thinking in this space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:44

So obviously we are women leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:47

We consider ourselves to be women leaders, so it's an important topic

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:50

for us to, um, to cover and talk about.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:53

Recently we attended the Women in Business Expo where we heard a lot of women.

Carrie-Ann: 00:01:58

Talking about leadership challenges.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:01

And we also heard Helen Ashton talk about the stereotypes that

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:05

women face when trying to achieve senior leadership positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:09

And the, um, the staggering stat that only there are only four women

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:14

chief executives in the FSE 100.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:16

And actually just a couple of days ago, LeanIn and McKinzie published their

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:21

Women in the Workplace 2022 report.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:24

It's research that they do annually.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:26

They've been doing it since 2015 over in the States.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:29

And I just wanted to give a little bit of an overview of what that report's found,

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:34

cuz I think that does lend itself to some good context for our conversation today.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:38

But we are in a space where women are demanding more from work

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:42

and they're actually leaving companies in unprecedented

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:46

numbers to be able to get that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:47

Women leaders are switching jobs at the highest rate that we've ever seen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:52

Women are already, as we know, significantly underrepresented in that

Carrie-Ann: 00:02:55

leadership space, and for years, fewer women have risen through the ranks

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:00

because of that broken rung at that first step up into management position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:04

And now we're finding that companies are really struggling to hold onto the very

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:09

few women leaders that they actually have.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:11

And all of these dynamics and that shift in sort of space are even

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:15

more pronounced for women of color.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:17

the report shows that women leaders are just as ambitious as men.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:21

But that at many companies, they face, uh, situations and circumstances that

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:26

make it much harder for them to advance.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:28

Women though are doing more to support employee wellbeing and to foster a

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:32

sense of and culture of inclusion.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:35

But that critical work is spreading women very thin, and most of it goes unrewarded.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:40

And finally, what that report has shown in terms of kind of themes around women

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:44

leadership is that is increasingly important to women leaders that they

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:49

work for, companies that prioritize employee wellbeing, flexibility,

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:54

diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Carrie-Ann: 00:03:56

So that's kind of the context according to Leaning and McKinsey

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:00

in that women leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:02

So I'm quite interested to hear, Lee, what your experience has been like

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:07

generally as a, as a woman leader, and what things stand out for you

Carrie-Ann: 00:04:11

in terms of your own experience.

Lee: 00:04:14

I mean those stats are, are unsurprising, but surprising in that

Lee: 00:04:19

weird paradox where they can be both things, because you hope things have pro.

Lee: 00:04:24

And maybe we'll talk about this a bit later, but, um, then you,

Lee: 00:04:28

you get reports like this and it feels like you're actually going

Lee: 00:04:31

backwards rather than forwards.

Lee: 00:04:32

I mean, my experience is, it's a really interesting one when I

Lee: 00:04:36

reflect on, because I don't know.

Lee: 00:04:39

And I still don't know to some extent whether the way I was treated in the

Lee: 00:04:44

workplace was a result of me being a woman or a result of me working in

Lee: 00:04:50

this so-called kind of fluffy PR world.

Lee: 00:04:53

And I think if I look at things like pay, you know, I had battles with pay.

Lee: 00:05:01

I know for a fact that I was paid less than people who were more

Lee: 00:05:07

junior than me in the organization.

Lee: 00:05:09

So it wasn't even about equity of my peers.

Lee: 00:05:12

And I don't know whether that was because I was a woman and I was being

Lee: 00:05:15

discriminated against, or cuz my role wasn't valued in the organization.

Lee: 00:05:18

And maybe it was a bit of both.

Lee: 00:05:20

Maybe me being a woman in that role was like the double whammy.

Lee: 00:05:23

I don't know, that's, that's kind of.

Lee: 00:05:27

Quite a hard one to unpick and will I ever really unpick and, and know for sure

Lee: 00:05:31

I know I was definitely discriminated against because unequal pay, I'd been

Lee: 00:05:37

questioned whether I had the gravitas, for example, to take on, you know, these big

Lee: 00:05:42

doctors and to take doctors with me when I was working in the healthcare setting.

Lee: 00:05:47

Would they respect me because I was a young girl?

Lee: 00:05:50

Was a specific question I was asked by another woman.

Lee: 00:05:54

Interestingly, at an interview panel, I've been asked about my plans around family

Lee: 00:06:00

and what my kind of future plans were.

Lee: 00:06:03

I worked for a bullying boss, again, was a woman, which is really interesting.

Lee: 00:06:07

Even when I think about my late years in corporate.

Lee: 00:06:11

In executive meetings, you know, the male CEO would perhaps look to the woman to

Lee: 00:06:16

make notes if the PA wasn't around, for example, unless it was a really important

Lee: 00:06:21

operational moment and he'd speak to one of the male managers to do it.

Lee: 00:06:25

And I thought, well that's a really interesting dynamic of where he

Lee: 00:06:29

thought responsibility should lie dependent on the subject.

Lee: 00:06:33

So yeah, I dunno

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:33

it is complex to sort of try to unpick why some of these

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:38

situations might have arisen.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:39

And as you were talking through each of those I was just going tick.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:43

Yeah, tick.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:44

Yeah, that's happened.

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:45

So, you know, I have also been questioned about my plans around motherhood and being

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:50

told that it's being assumed that at a certain point in time I'm gonna wanna

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:54

go off and have children, for example, I've been questioned about my age and

Carrie-Ann: 00:06:58

experience in interview settings, in conversations with potential new male

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:04

bosses, but equally like you, I've had the same question thrown at me by women,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:08

which again, I find that's probably something that is worth exploring.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:13

I've been told by a recruiter that I was the preferred candidate for a role,

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:19

but that I would be offered X salary and then discovered that the next preferred

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:24

candidate who clearly wasn't number one on the list, who was a male, was

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:28

gonna be offered a different salary if they got asked to do the same role.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:32

Being referred to as the comms girl by my chief executive when I was appointed

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:37

into a director level position.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:39

So all of what you're saying resonates with me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:42

And again, some of it I think that happened because I'm a woman.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:45

Some of it, I think that happened because of my age at the time, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:49

being perceived to be too young.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:51

Some of it happened because I think you are right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:54

Perceptions of my chosen career and my area of expertise and

Carrie-Ann: 00:07:58

professionalism and how valued it was.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:00

And some of it probably happened because of all of that intertwined together.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:04

So it is, it's really hard, isn't it, to unpick exactly the whys and where fors

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:09

of why certain behaviors happen towards.

Lee: 00:08:11

Yeah.

Lee: 00:08:12

And without going down, cause we've done episodes on introvert versus extrovert,

Lee: 00:08:16

but the, the impact and stigma that sits with introvert, that notion of, Oh,

Lee: 00:08:22

you're not very confident and all that.

Lee: 00:08:24

So I had that play in as well.

Lee: 00:08:27

So you, you know, take your pick of what could be the reason.

Lee: 00:08:31

And maybe I never, well sometimes I definitely didn't call it out, but, um,

Lee: 00:08:35

sometimes you only recognize in hindsight, and sometimes you only recognize it when

Lee: 00:08:39

other people show it up for what it is.

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:43

And, and I would say there are definite things that when I have

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:46

had these conversations with other people particularly when I've had these

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:49

conversations with male colleagues, or male peers or people who are men in my

Carrie-Ann: 00:08:55

support network have been shocked that I've been asked about when, So when are

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:00

you gonna go off and have kids then?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:02

Cuz how, how much of you are we really gonna get and for

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:04

how long for if we appoint you?

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:06

So it's, it's clear to me that men don't get asked some of those

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:10

questions and don't get questioned about some of the things that women do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:14

So there's a bit of me that goes, I know some of this is because I'm female.

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:18

But actually, like you say, it's, it's tied up in a lot of other complexities

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:22

and, and as we heard from the Lean in and the McKinsey report, actually,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:26

we are talking about this from the privilege of being two white women and

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:30

actually women of color are experiencing this, and then some, which, you know,

Carrie-Ann: 00:09:35

you can see is very challenging.

Lee: 00:09:37

And so often the complexity in these situation is there's the

Lee: 00:09:42

obvious, the really of out there actions that you can pick up on.

Lee: 00:09:45

And then there's the subliminal stuff that you don't really know why certain things

Lee: 00:09:49

have happened or what people are thinking or their motivations behind a decision

Lee: 00:09:53

that they make, which absolutely could be because you are a woman, or it could be

Lee: 00:09:57

that they don't think you are the right person for the job, but you don't, you,

Lee: 00:10:00

you might never get to the bottom of.

Carrie-Ann: 00:10:56

I did want us to explore a bit more in terms of what you perceive to be

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:00

some of those barriers and challenges for women in leadership today and that point

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:05

that you made earlier, but reflecting on do, do we think they've changed at all?

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:09

Are they different?

Carrie-Ann: 00:11:10

Are they new ones or are they just the same?

Lee: 00:11:13

I mean, I think many of the challenges are the same.

Lee: 00:11:16

Pay flexibility in the workplace, opportunities given in the workplace,

Lee: 00:11:22

general points of equality.

Lee: 00:11:23

You know, they're the same issues being discussed.

Lee: 00:11:27

But if you look at the long game, obviously there has been some progress.

Lee: 00:11:32

You know, women at one point couldn't vote.

Lee: 00:11:33

Women weren't allowed to go to work.

Lee: 00:11:36

It took a long while for those changes to take place.

Lee: 00:11:39

So I do think we need to be a bit realistic about how long we think other

Lee: 00:11:43

changes are gonna happen, and that does boil down to things like education

Lee: 00:11:49

and what are children seeing in their homes and in their personal lives?

Lee: 00:11:55

As an aside kid that I know already playing into that stereotype

Lee: 00:11:58

of mom's got to be in the kitchen and he's seven or eight.

Lee: 00:12:03

So that type of dynamic in the home life.

Lee: 00:12:06

So that's something that won't change overnight . And then there's the bit

Lee: 00:12:10

around what do you accept and what do you challenge in the workplace.

Lee: 00:12:13

So all those things need to shift, and that won't happen overnight.

Lee: 00:12:18

So I do think we've made in some way big strides, but we do also seem

Lee: 00:12:23

to be battling the same problems.

Lee: 00:12:25

And those figures that you stated at the beginning show that there's still a

Lee: 00:12:30

really, really, really long way to go.

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:32

Yeah.

Lee: 00:12:34

and I think that the stat that you mentioned about, was it 4% or something?

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:38

In the top 100 FTSE companies, there are only four women

Carrie-Ann: 00:12:42

chief executives or the rest are men.

Lee: 00:12:45

So there was another report that came out a couple of weeks

Lee: 00:12:48

ago called Women Count, and they looked at the FTSE 350, and that was

Lee: 00:12:54

96% of the chief execs there were.

Lee: 00:12:58

And 70% of companies had no female executive directors on their boards.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:04

it, It is beyond comprehension really, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:06

And actually, I, I think the one place where we have probably made strides

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:11

that will be helpful in what you are talking about, which is massive cultural,

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:16

societal, and behavioral shift, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:18

Which, like you say, takes a lot of time.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:20

So while we've seen some progress, we are still seeing there are, you

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:24

know, elements of society and parts of our culture and parts of the way

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:27

that we, we behave that actually just reinforce those gender stereotypes

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:32

and make it difficult still for women to step outside of those, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:36

But what I found really interesting, in the report through Lean In, was that

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:40

I was reading about how much positive impact women leaders have in their

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:44

organizations in terms of, of the culture.

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:48

Of prioritizing areas that make the workforce feel more valued and therefore

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:52

retains a workforce of creating a culture where people can be more open and

Carrie-Ann: 00:13:57

transparent and bring more creativity.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:00

So I feel like there's like this untapped potential for what women leaders can

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:05

do for organizations that just somehow gets missed and that we don't really

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:10

seem to be able to bring to the fore enough for people to realize that,

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:14

just to keep perpetuating, leaders of organizations must be of a certain

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:19

type and, and mostly that type is men.

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:21

It is quite frustrating when there's clear evidence that women leaders

Carrie-Ann: 00:14:25

can bring so much in terms of positive return for an organization.

Lee: 00:14:30

And you see that more broadly with diversity and bringing diverse

Lee: 00:14:34

people in breeds diverse thinking and different approaches and different

Lee: 00:14:37

approaches to the same challenges.

Lee: 00:14:39

So completely agree with you.

Lee: 00:14:41

I think if you look at what are the barrier.

Lee: 00:14:43

Is that still?

Lee: 00:14:45

I mean, how long have we got?

Lee: 00:14:46

But you know, we know motherhood and childcare is still a barrier.

Lee: 00:14:50

We know older women put out to pasture a lot earlier than their male counterparts.

Lee: 00:14:56

You only have to look at Hollywood to see something that's perpetuating.

Lee: 00:14:59

And also side note is absolutely why I love Murder, She Wrote

Lee: 00:15:03

cause she really fought for that

Lee: 00:15:06

We know women are penalized for the natural things that happen

Lee: 00:15:11

to their bodies, like having periods, like having the menopause.

Lee: 00:15:15

We know if a woman is vocal or stands up for herself, she's called

Lee: 00:15:20

a bitch or loud or aggressive.

Lee: 00:15:21

But if a man does it, he's

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:23

Confident and assertive.

Carrie-Ann: 00:15:25

Yeah.

Lee: 00:15:26

In the corporate environment, there's studies that show that if a female leader,

Lee: 00:15:32

like a chair of a meeting, if she speaks up and she's seen as talking too much, but

Lee: 00:15:37

if a male chair of a meeting speaks up, he's showing leadership and confidence.

Lee: 00:15:42

We know women themselves underestimate their own abilities or listen to the hype

Lee: 00:15:47

that's out there rather and so they don't put themselves forward for jobs where

Lee: 00:15:51

a man might put themselves forward or they wait for people to recognize them

Lee: 00:15:56

before they take an action on something.

Lee: 00:15:58

And we know, as you've said, women are leaving companies.

Lee: 00:16:03

And I'm evidence of that.

Lee: 00:16:04

I, I stepped away from the corporate world and for me it's not just about childcare,

Lee: 00:16:08

which is often one of those discussions that it tends to boil down to, and I

Lee: 00:16:13

don't, I think it's bigger than that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:15

Yeah, I think there's a couple of points that resonate with me in, in

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:18

what you said there, Lee, and I think one is around that motherhood, childcare,

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:22

parental responsibility challenge that women face in the workplace and that

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:27

absolutely 100% is a challenge for women.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:31

If you are a parent, particularly a mum, I think there are expectations on you,

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:36

there is evidence to show that you bear more of the childcare burden For sure.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:40

So trying to juggle a career as a leader and being a mum.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:45

I absolutely can see must be a massive challenge.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:48

So I absolutely don't doubt the constant pressures that, that

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:51

women must be under in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:52

But I have to say as somebody who's a woman but not a mum, that I have often

Carrie-Ann: 00:16:57

been put in a position where I felt my own experiences as a woman in the

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:04

workplace have been downplayed because I'm not a parent, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:08

So it's almost like, well how would you know cuz you haven't

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:10

got that responsibility.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:12

And I have often felt like others have perceived that I've had an easier

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:17

journey in my career and in that leadership space because I, I haven't

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:21

got the responsibilities of being a mum.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:23

And sometimes I find that quite challenging because I feel like actually

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:29

there have been points in my career where being a woman has been as impacted

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:35

negatively on things in my career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:37

So it, it shouldn't have to be about the fact that I don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:40

have children to look after.

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:41

For me to say I've had, I've had challenges in a difficult

Carrie-Ann: 00:17:44

time and barriers to overcome.

Lee: 00:17:46

It's hard that the conversation so often, and maybe this is the

Lee: 00:17:52

broader discussion we can have a bit later in this episode, is that what

Lee: 00:17:55

can women do to help each other?

Lee: 00:17:57

But often the conversation or the box that needs to be ticked is all around

Lee: 00:18:02

accommodating motherhood and working mums, which, I'm with you, and it's

Lee: 00:18:06

a really hard one, I think I might have said this to you, um, earlier in

Lee: 00:18:12

the week when we were chatting about something else, that I had this really

Lee: 00:18:15

awkward moment when I'd been reflecting on the fact that every leadership talk

Lee: 00:18:19

I'd gone to recently started with the woman talking about her role as a mum

Lee: 00:18:24

and the difficulty, and there was no one that had my experience talking and

Lee: 00:18:28

I almost didn't raised it because I thought am I gonna come across as the

Lee: 00:18:35

people who do this all people matter.

Lee: 00:18:37

And it's completely different situation.

Lee: 00:18:38

Cause I absolutely do believe that there is a place.

Lee: 00:18:42

Working moms it's hideous how their careers are cut out, how their

Lee: 00:18:45

pays impacted, how they don't get to progress, all of that stuff.

Lee: 00:18:49

And I want to be an advocate and support for that.

Lee: 00:18:53

But we also need to recognize the other experiences that women go through - you

Lee: 00:18:58

might not get jobs because people assume you're gonna have children . So you,

Lee: 00:19:02

you see, you're still getting penalized.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:04

Yeah, and, and there's something about as well, there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:07

expectations sometimes I think on you as a woman in the workplace who doesn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:11

have children, to be able to just be 24 7 saying, Yeah, I'll do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:16

Yeah, I'll do the extra hours yet, I'll do out of hours on call.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:20

I'll cover all of the holidays because you are trying to be

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:23

supportive of people who've got families to enable them to do that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:27

But at the same time, sometimes you wanna go, I, I'd still like to have a

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:30

week off at Easter actually, even though it's not to spend time with my children.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:35

There are other reasons why I might want to be offered

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:38

some of that same flexibility.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:39

So I think you're absolutely right, but there is almost like I can almost feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:44

myself a nervousness of, of wanting to say, It's hard for women who don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:49

have kids because I, I worry that all the women who are juggling motherhood

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:53

and a career and, and being in that leadership space are gonna be like,

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:57

Well, actually it's harder for us.

Carrie-Ann: 00:19:59

And, and maybe it is, but it doesn't mean that everyone shouldn't

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:02

be able to have a voice and reflect on their own experiences.

Lee: 00:20:06

And I think there's also then this character assumption made of people who

Lee: 00:20:11

are women leaders who don't have children because they're put in that box of.

Lee: 00:20:15

Maybe they're a bit cold or they're a bit heartless or they don't have

Lee: 00:20:18

empathy because they don't have that mothering gene in them or whatever.

Lee: 00:20:23

And I've definitely seen that that perception of, you know, you're

Lee: 00:20:26

gonna have a bit of an edge to you because you are not a mother.

Lee: 00:20:30

And that's a weird one that I can't fathom.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:32

Again, I think we're just back to that point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:34

It's very complex space to be in, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:36

And unpick and work out what's best to do.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:39

And I think what we're saying is, you know that the whole motherhood thing

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:43

is a barrier within itself and comes with a whole range of challenges,

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:47

whether you are a mum or not.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:49

There was another bit that you briefly touched on, and I thought we might

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:52

go into this space and didn't, so I'm just gonna draw it out a bit.

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:55

But you were talking about, perceptions of women, but also maybe

Carrie-Ann: 00:20:58

the perceptions of our own selves and what we are able to achieve.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:02

And I think, in the leadership space and the working environment, space,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:06

imposter syndrome gets talked about a lot.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:09

Like this is what I was interested to explore with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:12

For the listeners who didn't get the sound effect, there was a

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:15

sort of eye roll eyebrow raise thing going on there from Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:18

So I'd like to explore it a bit more.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:21

I know when we've talked, we haven't been that keen on the term.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:25

But there is something there around women's own self

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:29

belief in their abilities.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:30

You talked about the fact that women, are less likely to go for jobs if they

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:34

don't feel like they tick all the boxes, and that's a well shared fact, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:37

Women feel like they must have a hundred percent of what's on a job

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:41

description, be able to evidence they can do it before they'd even apply,

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:45

men would go for about 50% and wing the rest so that there is something there

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:49

in that kind of mentality, I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:52

But interestingly, I have also heard more men talking now about the fact

Carrie-Ann: 00:21:57

that they have imposter syndrome.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:00

And so it obviously is becoming something that isn't necessarily

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:03

just associated with women.

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:06

So your take on imposter syndrome and is it a barrier or a challenge for women in

Carrie-Ann: 00:22:10

the leadership space and just your views on that I'd be really interested in.

Lee: 00:22:15

We could do a whole other episode on imposter syndrome.

Lee: 00:22:18

I'm a skeptic about does imposter syndrome exist?

Lee: 00:22:22

I think it's a term that people have cottoned onto and used, but it masks a

Lee: 00:22:28

whole load of other stuff that's at play.

Lee: 00:22:30

So how are people being made to feel in the workplace because of maybe

Lee: 00:22:37

discrimination, because of all the issues that we've been talking about.

Lee: 00:22:42

So there's generally, if you boil down to the root cause of that feeling,

Lee: 00:22:46

there is usually something else at play.

Lee: 00:22:49

So someone's lack of confidence that makes them feel like an imposter.

Lee: 00:22:53

You do some coaching work with someone and you really get down to the root cause.

Lee: 00:22:56

They can generally pinpoint examples when they've been made to feel a certain

Lee: 00:23:00

way or they've perceived something.

Lee: 00:23:03

And so actually there's other stuff at play and I think.

Lee: 00:23:06

, it's become a phrase that everyone uses to try and explain away their feelings

Lee: 00:23:11

rather than tackle the underlying causes that are making people feel that way.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:17

I like your take on that, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:18

And you're, but you're absolutely right.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:20

And it goes back again to some of the themes that keep coming up around the

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:23

culture of the organization, , all of that kind of stuff is, is the underlying reason

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:29

why people don't have the confidence sometimes or the self-belief that they

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:33

can push themselves or that they will be supported to get that promotion or take

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:37

that next step in their leadership career.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:39

I'm glad we touched on it cause I know it's something we have talked about

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:42

in other places around our feelings around imposter syndrome and it's

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:46

often something that is labeled as a challenge for women in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:50

just to move us on, I think really now we've talked about some of the barriers.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:54

I know we've really skimmed the surface cuz we could talk

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:57

for a lot longer about them.

Carrie-Ann: 00:23:59

But I wanted to just get your take on how we can start to change some

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:03

of that thinking around women leaders and challenge the stereotypes of

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:07

women in leadership positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:09

And I guess alongside that, what, what support do we need to do this and,

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:13

and who do we need that support from?

Lee: 00:24:16

Mm, Big

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:17

Yes.

Carrie-Ann: 00:24:17

Sorry, just to throw it to you,

Lee: 00:24:20

I've almost got two different hats that I'm gonna have to wear

Lee: 00:24:24

with this answer because there's one part of me that says With equality

Lee: 00:24:29

issues in general, and I'm not just talking about women in leadership.

Lee: 00:24:32

I'm talking about diversity and race and, and all, all sorts of equality issues.

Lee: 00:24:37

The burden for change is so often sat with the people who are the oppressed.

Lee: 00:24:43

and that is the thing that makes it feel so tiring for everyone.

Lee: 00:24:47

And that I think shirks the responsibilities for the people who

Lee: 00:24:51

actually need to be making the change.

Lee: 00:24:53

So in one effect, I want to deflect the question and go, Well, what

Lee: 00:24:56

do other people need to do.

Lee: 00:24:58

With my other hat on women are doing a lot.

Lee: 00:25:02

There's some brilliant advocates and allies out there that

Lee: 00:25:05

are really championing women leadership and, and all of that.

Lee: 00:25:09

And so I don't want to do a disservice to the work that's

Lee: 00:25:11

going out there, but I do think.

Lee: 00:25:15

I've come across personally examples of women leaders who should

Lee: 00:25:20

be doing more for other women.

Lee: 00:25:22

That whole concept of lift is as you rise.

Lee: 00:25:25

That definitely doesn't happen.

Lee: 00:25:27

I think this thing that we touched on around motherhood and not always placing

Lee: 00:25:32

ourselves as women in that motherhood box.

Lee: 00:25:36

And I think also the other issue about, I hate to say it, but we, we can, we can

Lee: 00:25:42

tear down other women and you know, I've done that with Truss, but then she's not

Lee: 00:25:46

done, you know, I worry about certain examples that certain women set for other

Lee: 00:25:51

women and she brought the kind of cause back a few years because I dunno whether

Lee: 00:25:56

it was one of our episodes we spoke about last year, um, last year, last series,

Lee: 00:26:01

when I said I'd listen to that interview with Julia Gillard but she was saying like

Lee: 00:26:07

the question in, New Zealand, for example, around can a woman be a Prime Minister

Lee: 00:26:13

has been asked and answered three times.

Lee: 00:26:16

So it's not an issue there anymore.

Lee: 00:26:18

When she took over as the first prime minister in Australia, she

Lee: 00:26:24

was having to prove the point.

Lee: 00:26:25

Can a woman be a prime minister.

Lee: 00:26:27

And my worry is with the recent example that we've had, actually the

Lee: 00:26:31

last two women leaders in, in Britain is perhaps, raising that question

Lee: 00:26:38

again can women be good leaders?

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:39

I think that's really interesting, isn't it, around

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:42

challenging those stereotypes because when we talk about the Truss, and

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:46

you just said you, you tore her down.

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:48

So you've done what you've, you don't want other women to do a little bit there, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:52

I think there's a bit for me is like, where do we get that differentiation

Carrie-Ann: 00:26:56

around the fact that actually I think the issue is that she didn't demonstrate good

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:02

leadership full stop, but we're putting a label on it about her being a woman.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:06

We didn't say, we didn't say about Boris Johnson.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:09

We don't think he was a good example of, of male leadership.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:12

We just said leadership without putting the male bit in.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:14

We were like, or no, maybe some people thought he was a good example, whatever.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:18

But I, I just think it's interesting that when we talk about some of these examples

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:22

of the good, the bad, the ugly, everything in between in terms of leadership, If

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:27

it's a woman leader, we feel the need to state that they're a woman leader,

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:31

but if it's a man, they're just a leader and I think some of that's what we have

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:35

to tackle as well, I'm a leader, I know we said we identify as women leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:39

That's cuz we're women and in leadership positions.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:41

But when I am in my day to day work life, I don't feel the need label

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:47

myself as a woman, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:48

It's just quite interesting that, that we are kind of in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:51

I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:52

So I was also being kind to you and saying, I, I don't feel

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:55

like you tore down another woman in a really terrible way Lee..

Carrie-Ann: 00:27:58

I think you were just highlighting some really poor leadership from

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:01

somebody, but it will beg that question won't it, Which is unfortunate.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:05

And back to that of societal and cultural change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:08

yeah, we've got a slightly bit off topic I think there, but in a good

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:10

way, . I guess we're coming to that point in the conversation where

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:14

we do need to think about wrapping up and what our, how tos would be.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:17

We like to leave people with a few top takeaways from the episode.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:21

So my how tos takeaways and how we can start to challenge and change for me.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:27

I feel like we need to start seeking out those advocates, in that leadership

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:30

space, in our organizations, in, in our fields, to start having more open

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:35

conversations about some of this.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:37

And I think that needs to be men and women.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:39

And I do absolutely agree with you.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:40

I've had lots of experience, sadly, where.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:43

Sometimes it, it's other women in leadership positions that have

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:47

done us a disservice because they haven't been supportive and open

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:51

and help to create a culture where they support women in that space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:54

So there's something about that advocacy and support and starting

Carrie-Ann: 00:28:58

to have more conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:00

I love you put your hand up like we were at school then

Lee: 00:29:02

Sorry.

Lee: 00:29:03

Cause I know you're trying to wrap up and I'm potentially exploding the conversation

Lee: 00:29:07

again, but I think it's an important one, which is, is it the job of women

Lee: 00:29:11

to challenge other women or should when we see those women that perhaps aren't

Lee: 00:29:16

helping or being an ally to others, and we talk about trying to advocate

Lee: 00:29:21

and be an ally, should we be doing that or should male counterparts be doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:26

my view is we should all be doing it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:28

It's a really good question, but I think we should all be doing it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:31

Men should be challenging other men when they see some issue there.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:36

Women should be challenging other women and, and all the

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:39

ways around that spectrum.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:40

I think personally for me, because I think.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:43

If it's only left to one group of people to challenge another group, we'll never

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:46

make the progress that we need to make.

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:48

So I think for me, it feels like yes, absolutely women should be challenging

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:53

other women who perhaps are doing a disservice to the cause and, and not

Carrie-Ann: 00:29:58

demonstrating those good leadership characteristics of supporting others.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:02

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:02

With the caveat that I know it's much easier said than done because there's

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:07

probably lots of other episodes people could listen to about how to

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:10

build their confidence and make the space to have these conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:14

But yeah, I absolutely think it's everybody's job in

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:17

answer to that question, Lee.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:18

I guess the other thing I would say around like what do we, the collective

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:22

we, so I don't mean we as women I mean what do we as leaders need to

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:26

do to support and, and make change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:28

I think we need to present the evidence in a compelling way in terms of the

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:32

impacts of not supporting women in that leadership space and really look to see

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:37

how we can demonstrate the value add of increasing the number of women leaders.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:42

I sometimes think we don't have enough conversations about that, and we don't

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:45

do that enough in our organizations or in that leadership space.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:50

We really need to be presenting that evidence to affect that change.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:54

And then I think as individuals, I think it's about knowing our worth.

Carrie-Ann: 00:30:57

So whether you do or don't believe in imposter syndrome, whatever, I

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:01

think it is about knowing what we are worth and fighting personally for what

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:06

we've all had conversations probably about pay, about equity, flexibility.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:12

I think know your worth and have those conversations.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:15

Don't just settle and it, I think that can be draining and it can be hard, but

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:19

if you've got a good support network around you that can help with that.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:22

But if we all just accept that it's okay to get paid less than the man who's doing

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:27

the same job as me or whatever, then that's just gonna continue, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:32

So know our worth because we are worth it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:34

It sounded like L'Oreal is that that is who's worth it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:37

I

Lee: 00:31:38

Yeah, just flicking my

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:39

little hair flick.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:40

We're worth it.

Carrie-Ann: 00:31:41

Uh, what are your top takeaways from this episode?

Lee: 00:31:45

Well, it's actually a whole new point that I'm gonna make because

Lee: 00:31:52

when I knew the topic and it, it tread slightly on the topic of being an ally.

Lee: 00:31:57

And I thought rather than answering the question from my

Lee: 00:32:00

perspective, what, because I want to appeal to the male listener.

Lee: 00:32:04

Um, I thought I'd speak to my husband and ask him what he thought needs

Lee: 00:32:10

to happen to get men more involved in terms of supporting the cause

Lee: 00:32:15

and being an ally to women leaders.

Lee: 00:32:17

So I'm gonna try and paraphrase it as much as possible, but he said that,

Lee: 00:32:23

The whole premise of creating allies is a bit flawed because we tend to

Lee: 00:32:28

take an approach that one size fits all, and actually the groups that

Lee: 00:32:32

we're trying to appeal to aren't this homogenous group, and we need to be a

Lee: 00:32:36

bit more multifaceted in our approach.

Lee: 00:32:39

So he was making the point that like he, for example, is someone

Lee: 00:32:42

that likes logical reasoned argument where someone else might really be

Lee: 00:32:47

appealed to an emotional argument.

Lee: 00:32:50

And so, When you are tackling something, you need to be tailoring

Lee: 00:32:57

it to the person that you are trying to encourage as an ally.

Lee: 00:33:02

So you need to understand who you are dealing with.

Lee: 00:33:05

You need to understand that person, and then take action according to.

Lee: 00:33:09

That person.

Lee: 00:33:10

But his big, big caveat is that we also just need to accept that

Lee: 00:33:15

there's gonna be a subset of people that are never gonna be our allies.

Lee: 00:33:20

And this, this isn't just about women, this is about any, any kind of diverse

Lee: 00:33:24

group that's looking to create allyship.

Lee: 00:33:27

Um, and that we need to accept that rather than trying to fight it.

Lee: 00:33:30

And we should try to avoid causing conflict with those people cuz it devalues

Lee: 00:33:35

our broader argument around allyship.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:38

I absolutely love that last point in there, Lee, because I do

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:41

agree and I think actually why would we invest all our energy in trying to

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:46

change the behaviors and opinions of those who absolutely are not ever gonna

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:50

to be part of wanting to, to do good for that cause when we could be investing

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:54

that time and energy on the good.

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:55

So I think that's, that's really pertinent and I, I love you bringing

Carrie-Ann: 00:33:59

in that different take and a new point.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:01

I think that is a really poignant way to, to finish this conversation.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:05

Other than to give a plug to a few of our other episodes that link

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:09

into that point that your husband made, um, which is, you might wanna

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:12

listen to our episode on allyship.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:14

You might wanna listen to our episode on storytelling.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:17

Because I think that picks up on some of those points around knowing who you're

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:21

trying to communicate with and doing that in a multifaceted way to get your

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:25

message across to different people.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:26

So what better way to end this week's episode thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann: 00:34:31

I'm sure we will revisit some of this in the future.